| 5:50 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|shut down about 2 hours ago |
Really two hours ago?
Those are not working hours, not even in California.
These emails are totally automated!
| 5:56 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Ya totaly automated......
Now I want to know how many non-arbitrage publishers have been shut down.....
Anytime you have automation like this many "normal" guys get shut down with the croud......thats what happend to several of my product sites with Adwords introduced the quality bot on the content network.......
I got to tell you....I am WAY WIGGING out right now....super paranoid that us non-arbs may start getting hit.
| 6:15 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
What you need to tell us is, if the site in question was a pure MFA with thin content or something more....
I am working on the premise that they are knocking off sites with minimum content and maximum ads. I maybe wrong.
| 6:26 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Just before the fear spreads:
- Getting the letter at night does not mean it is fully automated, you don't know how big the list is, it can be that the delivery is automated, the flagging is automated, but I would be very surprised if the pulling of the trigger is automated, public companies do not play dice.
- If one non arb site was banned you would have heard loud screams of horror already days ago.
| 6:30 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
You're right. It does not make sense to be fully automated, because none have plead innocence.
Must be they just programmed email batch for the night.
| 6:31 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
"Just before the fear spreads"
Well, I checked some other forums and there are publishers complaining that even though they donot use the arbitrage model and run blogs, they have been banned. Source of traffic seems to be myspace? They are speculating that it could be a combination of MFA and low conversions or both.
| 6:38 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Let me re-iterate what I mentioned earlier - as it has obviously got a tad buried in here - and can certainly answer a couple of questions.
I have a friend - who had a very much so MFA site. Totally lame - no content etc.
100% of her traffic was from PPC YAHOO - NOT ADWORDS, nor was there ever any adwords traffic. Her revenue was under $10K a month. Her CTR was probably over 35%. She had had her account for several years.
There is no loss with this site being banned - it is exactly sites like these that need to go. I've been telling her for ages. The point is that this is not just adwords/adsense related - it is more to do with PPC/adsense and probably a whole load of other factors.
I think that there is some sort of automated filtering going on - possibly to filter out the worse offenders - followed by perhaps more manual reviews to get rid of some that slipped through the net.
I suspect that unless you have at least one legit site running in an account you will have little if any chance of reinstatement. Perhaps if you have at least one legit site - you might be able to prove your case - and get your act together to produce more of similar quality.
Just my pennies.
| 6:42 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|there are publishers complaining that even though they donot use the arbitrage model and run blogs |
SSDD turns into DSSD
Banning for click fraud is still on too.
| 7:07 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Shoemoney on his site quotes Kim Malone (President - G adSense) saying ( last fall) that they will use adWords data to find out which sites are not converting well for advertisers and knock them off the program. This seems to have come true.
Seems to me to be just the start of the clean up process...Next target could be any site? Seems to be a logical step. There must be thousands of sites with legitimate low converting traffic which could bear the brunt of the axe. Sites which cater to colleage/school students, teenagers seeking thrills or information and much more..
| 7:13 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
To each his own GG
There are publishers too for those niches, marriage & dating sites, ringtones, lyrics.. Google serves high as well as low ends of the spectrum, that's why I don't think they will be going after specific niches, right now they are clearing MFA, what's next?
I am hoping parked domains.
| 7:16 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Shoemoney was quoting Kim Malone from an SES Session in San Jose. In a post on SEW by Barry about shoemoney's post, Jenstar added a postscript:
|Actually, this has been known for quite some time that AdSense uses AdWords conversion data to determine how well each publisher's clicks are converting for advertisers. I covered this nearly a year ago on JenSense in a detailed post about how smart pricing works, and what factors go into determining it. |
Postscript by Barry Schwartz : Ouch! I stand way corrected.
Shoemoney's post was non-news.
| 7:22 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Smart pricing is way diffn. from being BANNED and thrown out of adSense.
I think shoemoney's quote is very relevant in today's context.
If G is going after sites with low conversions starting with MFA's, anything could happen.
Previously Low Conversions = smart priced.
Now? Low conversions = Banned?
Just conjecture , of course.
| 7:26 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
>>>Low conversions = Banned?
MFAs were flipping low bids for higher bids. If they were being smart priced then arbitrage wouldn't work. The inference from their success is that MFA clicks were worth more, i.e they weren't being smart priced and their clicks were converting. If their clicks weren't converting then the arbitrage wouldn't work because they'd be smartpriced out of a profit.
If it's true that MFA sites were converting for advertisers, which clearly they did because MFAs weren't smartpriced according to Kim Malone's statement that they'd whack anything that didn't convert, it's pretty clear that Shoemoney's quote is irrelevant to this discussion, and was in fact non-news when it was posted on his blog.
The situation is that Google is offloading profitable partners, and they're doing it with a hug and a kiss. The important question is, why would they get rid of a profitable partner that converted for their advertisers?
[edited by: martinibuster at 8:12 am (utc) on May 24, 2007]
| 7:32 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|Just talked to another person that got shut down about 2 hours ago with the same email......this person had just started and had made like $3,000 so far this month... |
Those making the most money have done the most damage to Google and the publishers.
I don't know that the arbit crowd realized the damage they could do to Google Adsense or Google in general when they started doing their thing.
It's certainly possible consumer confidence could erode beyond Adsense ads in the Content Network to the Search Network, which would led to greater losses for Google, where its prices are higher. Brand dilution inevitably is going to pass from one part of the company to other parts.
Google is probably not only trying to clean up Adsense and AdWords, but also its SERPs. There's much less motivation to game and spam the engine if you can't put Adsense on your site.
As those sites are taken out of the engines, our sites will go higher, which will lead to better publisher revenues.
| 7:39 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
The cheap clicks come mostly from content and keywords which are not expensive. The ads pay more because of imperfections in the system. It is the CTR which determines, if you make a profit or not. A consistent CTR of 50% + on traffic which costs 5 cents , and ads that pay 10cents( even after smart priced) or more is a profit and was doable for MFA's.
For example , I parked one domain on Sedo and this pays 15 cents a click. But sedo does not accept PPC traffic. The organic traffic has a CTR of above 35% and is profitable. The only problem is the amount of traffic.
| 7:44 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
I don't blame you if you skip this post due to it's length and my low number of posts in this forum :) I Do it too
My cumulative but by no means complete knowledge on this to date is that one or more of the following behaviors get your adsense account disabled:
1. Unrealistic CTR of 20% or above
2. PPC of some type was pushing traffic to pages
3. No site navigation or poor site navigation on landing pages (with or without a little or a lot of unique content)
4. Detecting of MFA sites may be automated but human review is most likely used for the final say.
5. The following statement is made in the absence of my knowledge so could be wrong by my assumption: Banned adsensers did not sell a product or service (that alone could arguably make it an MFA especially if it was created AFTER the adsense account was opened, even though we all know there's the rare case of writing it for good of humanity)
6. Having or not having organic traffic isn't the issue.
7. Historically Adwords accounts are NOT disabled when adsense accounts are. I suspect disabled adsensers would be hard pressed to get the same volume of traffic for the same price from adwords to their MFA domains even if they switched to YPN or some other contextual advertising network. (because afterall this can't be totally an adsense move it's most definitely a quality of the adwords experience as well)
I would be very interested to know if these banned publishers were accurately representing their landing pages in their ads with Adwords or other PPCs they used.
Also my take on how this is going to effect the adsense/adwords marketplace is that even with adwords accounts still active these advertisers will have to find a better business model to profit from adwords and most banned adsensers still using adwords will not be able to profitably continue at their former adwords spending levels. This will offset demand in the recently reduced adsense network, so mostly in the short run it should be business as usual for everyone else (besides hopefully getting a slightly better ROI from adwords) In the long term my view is pretty much the same as everyone else: Better internet experience with adwords and adsense = more trust in googles model = more funds allocated to marketing with Adwords.
| 7:46 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|The organic traffic has a CTR of above 35% and is profitable. The only problem is the amount of traffic. |
That's organic traffic and not relevant to this discussion. Try feeding AdWords to that and see how much you have to pay to show up on your parked domain, and then report how profitable it is.
|The ads pay more because of imperfections in the system. |
So are you contradicting what shoemoney heard Kim Malone say at SES?
Well actually, what you posted about shoemoney's blog post is incorrect. Jeremy said nothing, zero, about advertisers/MFA'ers being booted or even being targeted for booting. The whole point of the Shoemoney's post was that he was shocked to hear that AdWords and AdSense were sharing data between each other. To which Jenstar responded that the information was stale by about a year.
[edited by: martinibuster at 8:00 am (utc) on May 24, 2007]
| 7:50 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
"The situation is that Google is offloading profitable partners, and they're doing it with a hug and a kiss. The important question is, why would they get rid of a profitable partner that converted for their advertisers?"
Well... if you have this on authority, then our logical thinking is all wrong.
Then they REALLY hate arbitrage now, and have decided to knock off sites in this genre as a corporate decision.
Adwords sends a lot of traffic to them. This brings in links and upward movement in SERPS. A few pages show a 'arbitrage' profit, some show a loss, overall some momths a minor profit/ sometimes a minor loss. I am really worried.
Y/day, got an optimisation suggestion from the adWords team. The guys want me to increase traffic by changing my Ads. What they suggest does not strictly reflect on my site. I donot know, why, they would suggest something like this in times of such 'danger'.
| 7:58 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|Adwords sends a lot of traffic to them. This brings in links and upward movement in SERPS. A few pages show a 'arbitrage' profit, some show a loss, overall some momths a minor profit/ sometimes a minor loss. I am really worried. |
I'd say you're the ideal AdWords advertiser under the current conditions. You're doing it for the traffic and exposure, not necessarily for the clicks. One can grow a forum by targeting "niche forum" phrases. You may not convert those clicks to more clicks, but you are converting those clicks to more awareness and word of mouth about your forum, and down the line growth to your profit, links, SERPs, etc.
| 8:04 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
BUT am I an IDEAL adSense publisher? That is the question that worries me.
| 8:06 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|Really two hours ago? |
Those are not working hours, not even in California.
These emails are totally automated!
Thats presumptive that all the workers are in the US. Something like this could be done from bases anywhere in the world.
| 8:20 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|BUT am I an IDEAL adSense publisher |
Who knows what an ideal AdSense publisher is, in Google's eyes probably one that coverts each and every click to a sale for their advertisers, in our eyes, one that gets max pay per click and is never smartpriced.
But GG, this has nothing to do with MFA getting banned, and exactly what I've been warning about here, real publishers and real advertisers panicking.
People, you all know what an MFA is, these are the ones going POOF, don't panic.
| 9:43 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
The easiest way for Google to sniff out MFAs is checking the age of the site and its CTR. Started yesterday + 75% CTR = #$%&
| 10:10 am on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Any business model has to keep a tight reign on their portfolio.
Google is aiming at keeping its 'do no evil' philosophy.
So, perhaps some of the biggest publishers have complained about wasted spending on clicks leading to poor results, such as MFA sites. Bigger publishers have weight, as they could advertise elsewhere.
Also, the new Google 'hot trends' searches which shows the top 100 fastest rising searches must be cleaner than clean, with no MFA type sites showing up.
If AdWords are writing to publishers suggesting they increase revenue, or change ads, then IMO it is unlikely those ones are targeted for banning, much as when Google advertises its own products on your site, are they likely to ban you.
Although thread such as this one can be helpful in providing awareness, they can also make people worry too much, which can lead to sleepless nights! My take on it, is read, absorb, and carry on without worrying, and for sure if you have nothing to worry about, nothing negative will happen!
| 1:19 pm on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
There's a general agreement that the MFA/arb crowd are not (with a few exceptions) helpful to the overall experience of web users in general, and 'genuine' publishers/advertisers with Google in particular.
The response as seen on this board is 'Well, forget morality, forget how our actions affect others, this is business - we are in it for the money.'
Which does not give much room for complaint about Google acting unethically in giving MFA/arbers the(velvet-lined) boot. As characters used to say in The Godfather 'Nothing personal, its just business.'
| 1:36 pm on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|MFAs were flipping low bids for higher bids. If they were being smart priced then arbitrage wouldn't work. |
Doesn't that depend on the math in each specific case? E.g.:
- The percentage of the Smart Pricing" discount
- The spread between "buy" and "sell" after application of the Smart Pricing discount to outgoing clicks
- CTR on the arbitrageur's site
| 1:44 pm on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Many of you may not agree with me, but I think that Google has a part of responsibility with what is happening today by lowering the standard of acceptance of it's new publishers during the 2 or 3 last years, I mean that it was much more difficult to be accepted within adsense when it started 5 years ago. Sometimes we can be the victim of our success but I'am sure that Google will be able to pass through this "crise" after their spring cleaning.
| 2:00 pm on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
|Many of you may not agree with me, but I think that Google has a part of responsibility with what is happening today by lowering the standard of acceptance of it's new publishers during the 2 or 3 last years, I mean that it was much more difficult to be accepted within adsense when it started 5 years ago. |
I don't think the standards of the AdSense network were ever very high. In any case, if there was a decline in the quality of the typical site with AdSense ads, it wasn't simply because admission standards were low; it was because of what people did after they were accepted into the network. John Doe or Jane Buck might have been accepted on the strength of a wonderful site about the life of Mother Teresa, but if John or Jane then decided to crank out a thousand pages on mesothelioma or debt consolidation, there was nothing to keep them from doing so.
If Google bears any responsibility for the MFA mess, it's as much on the AdWords side as on the AdSense side. In any case, the question of who is or isn't morally responsible for MFA sites (or click arbitrage in general) is academic; what matters is that Google is taking action now, and cries of "But you let me do this before!" are about as meaningful as saying to a cop: "But this highway was engineered for speeds higher than the posted limit, and I'd been speeding for years until you gave me a ticket today!"
| 2:05 pm on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Good riddance! I'm just surprised that it has taken this long and the MFA/garbitrage sites have been allowed to go this far with this nonsense. You should all thank Google (and Yahoo, MSN, etc.) everyday for allowing you to make so much money in the past without providing anything of value.
| 2:13 pm on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
Bam you hit the nail on the head a rush to make all that money is now coming back to haunt them just as I said here
I am as a advertiser glad this stuff is getting taken down, I am sorry there are those losing their incomes and all, but I am tired of paying for traffic that doesn't have a snowsball chance in converting.
| 2:23 pm on May 24, 2007 (gmt 0)|
europeforvisitors. Yes, I do agree with you. we all have to be closer to the St-TOS bible to diserve the Google's Heaven...Amen.