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Why Adsense is not clear about Proxy websites?
proxy websites don't violate TOS but still being mistreated
Rolozo




msg:3341296
 7:09 pm on May 16, 2007 (gmt 0)

Its weired situation these days Google adsense is deducting money from adsense accounts of publishers on proxy websites (cgi proxy / phproxy ) without giving any information to publisher about 'invalid click activity' because most of the time deducted amount is way more than the amount proxy publishers earned from putting adsense on proxies all times.

Its really more weired that if its true that really that huge 'invalid click activity' happened on proxy publishers accounts then how it used to escape from Google Adsense 'proprietary' invalid click detection system? (we know they check realtime then take 15 days to validate earnings and some other stuff too)

Why Google Adsense don't give any information that can be used in future to avoid 'invalid clicks' like IP address of attackers, site urls (in case if publisher has multiple different niche websites), some other parameters like time/day and detail of their calculations of invalid clicks sum because its usually more than what has been earned all time with adsense on proxy websites.

There is one more serious issue that when deductions are done in adsense account same person don't see any credit in adwords account if he has used Adwords to drive traffic. If that traffic generated invalid clicks then its certain that reach to the site of that attacker was also because of a 'invalid click' and Adwords should also credit this amount to advertiser's account.

After frustrating (maybe bot) replies from Adsense support email communication i have decided to ask about it here on this old well established forum about this issue.

I hope some Adsense representative can answer these questions which they don't in email communication.

Thank You.

[edited by: Rolozo at 7:21 pm (utc) on May 16, 2007]

 

Quadrille




msg:3341563
 12:24 am on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Sounds to me like you were knowingly trying to fiddle adsesne, and now you want back the adwords money you invested in your failed scam.

I reckon you should count yourself VERY lucky they didn't just close your account; I would have.

But I wouldn't gamble on their generosity a second time; they do keep records of these things.

Rolozo




msg:3341846
 10:17 am on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)


Sounds to me like you were knowingly trying to fiddle adsesne, and now you want back the adwords money you invested in your failed scam.

Would you like to give some points to add value to your comments?

In my post above how you deduced that i was cheating?

Its shame for you because this story is not of me only. Its happening niche wide with majority of publishers.

You shouldn't blame anyone if you haven't any clue.

[edited by: Rolozo at 10:23 am (utc) on May 17, 2007]

DamonHD




msg:3341851
 10:47 am on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Hi,

I don't quite understand what you were/are doing, but:

1) If you were running a proxy that was placing AS ads against other people's copyright content then that would be a clear violation of AS ToS and in any case highly unethical.

2) If you were stripping out ads from the source material and then doing (1) that would be even worse. I've seen people do that to my sites and it is very irritating, but I have measures in place to trim the damage from such bandwidth theft (and copyright violation).

3) If it was something else that you were/are doing, please explain. I understand the value of some proxies for anonymity etc, but I don't think that AS is the right fit for various reasons.

Rgds

Damon

Rolozo




msg:3341940
 12:34 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Damon,
To your points
1) No, ads are only placed on homepage where 100% contents are owned by webmaster and yeah! adsense ads cannot be placed on proxified pages because contents on proxified pages are not owned by webmaster.

2) No, see point 1

3) Its allowed to put ads on homepage only (as said above #1). That's why i put meta description of this thread as " proxy websites don't violate TOS but still being mistreated".

As this forum doesn't allow urls so kindly search for phproxy on Google and you can see sample pages about how it looks like.

I think its clear now that publishers were/are not violating any TOS (as its in current form) and put adsense ads only on homepage NOT ON PROXIFIED PAGES.

europeforvisitors




msg:3341986
 1:34 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

The program policies state: "No Google ad may be placed on pages published specifically for the purpose of showing ads, whether or not the page content is relevant." That rule may not be enforced uniformly, but it does give Google a lot of wiggle room in cases where a site has very little original content, is using click arbitrage, or both.

Maybe you should consider yourself lucky that Google is sending you a subtle message instead of just closing your account (which it can do at any time without stating a reason--just as you can--whether or not you're in violation of the TOS).

DamonHD




msg:3342016
 1:53 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Hi R,

Glad that it was not (1) or (2): I simply was not clear from your post.

So, is EFV's point valid? Was there little original content on the page(s) that you did put AS on?

Or could someone have been clicking ads to 'tip' you?

Rgds

Damon

Rolozo




msg:3342112
 3:32 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

From EFV

The program policies state: "No Google ad may be placed on pages published specifically for the purpose of showing ads, whether or not the page content is relevant."

Proxy homepages cannot be categorized in those pages which are specifically built to show ads. Because proxies need to put a form, text box and some design stuff too so that user can easily browse proxified pages.

Further, lot of publishers are approved by adsense showing proxy website to adsense in application. So far adsense approves them to put adsense and its not a hidden truth.

From EFV

That rule may not be enforced uniformly, but it does give Google a lot of wiggle room in cases where a site has very little original content, is using click arbitrage, or both.

Google should enforce their rules uniformly.

From EFV

Maybe you should consider yourself lucky that Google is sending you a subtle message instead of just closing your account (which it can do at any time without stating a reason--just as you can--whether or not you're in violation of the TOS).

No i am not lucky as i have done nothing wrong in past with adsense. I think adsense didn't ban me because they know that invalid clicks activity (if it happened) was not done or initiated by me. I could only be lucky in case when i have done wrong and my account remained active.

From DamonHD

Was there little original content on the page(s) that you did put AS on?

Answered above, if their is problem due to nature of content then to date adsense has not advised any proxy publisher that your site contains content not suitable for adsense ads publishing.

I think you should search 'phproxy' in google and see yourself some sample websites.

netmeg




msg:3342143
 4:03 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Invalid clicks can mean a lot of different things - they are not necessarily saying that you clicked on your own ads, but something in your site design may have struck them as being against their TOS.

At any rate, they obviously don't like your business model, and they have chosen not to accept the proxy site into the program, so if you want to earn AdSense income, you need to come up with something else. Google's not likely to change their minds on this.

DamonHD




msg:3342149
 4:08 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Hi,


a form, text box and some design stuff too

will not count as 'original' content for these purposes IMHO.

They are talking about original, unique text/information that you have created yourself, not some HTML form and wrapper.

Rgds

Damon

[edited by: DamonHD at 4:09 pm (utc) on May 17, 2007]

oddsod




msg:3342172
 4:23 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)


Sounds to me like you were knowingly trying to fiddle adsesne

I, too, would like to see your reasoning.

Rolozo, you are 100% correct in that a proxy site is not one published specifically for the purpose of showing ads. It is designed to allow people to access sites that they may otherwise be blocked from. It's a perfectly valid service and 100% legal. Moreover, it is also 100% within the Adsense TOS if you have some content on the page explaining what the proxy does and/or pointing people towards others ways of safe and annoymous surfing.

europeforvisitors




msg:3342198
 4:54 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Rolozo, you are 100% correct in that a proxy site is not one published specifically for the purpose of showing ads.

Or maybe it is. Google gets to make that judgment.

Quality of clicks may be an issue, too. If Google sees that a lot of junk clicks are being generated by a proxy site (or any site), it may choose to regard those clicks as invalid clicks, simply to protect its advertisers.

oddsod




msg:3342236
 5:22 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Or maybe it is. Google gets to make that judgment.

If a site is not published specifically for the purpose of showing ads then it's not published specifically for the purpose of showing ads. Google doesn't get to decide the intentions of the webmaster - just whether the site meets their TOS. Let's not confuse Google with God.

A proxy can be an MFA site but let's not get carried away and consider all proxies MFAs.

Quadrille




msg:3342239
 5:25 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

If the intention was not to game Google, as it appears, then what was the intention.

I think we should be told.

And unless the proxy exists for a reason, then no amount of added text changes the facts. For example, if a site is readily available directly, then no amount of weasel words justifies placing adsense against it by use of a proxy.

If your interpretation of the TOS says different, I'd love to see you have your day in court; if you win, I'll withdraw my comment.

oddsod




msg:3342299
 6:17 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

If the intention was not to game Google, as it appears, then what was the intention

I was hoping to get some reasons why you think he was trying to "fiddle" Adsense. That's a serious allegation you've made. Any explanations you want to share? Or are you saying that all proxies exist only to game Google?

And unless the proxy exists for a reason, then no amount of added text changes the facts. For example, if a site is readily available directly, then no amount of weasel words justifies placing adsense against it by use of a proxy.

Proxies exist for a reason - to take people to sites. Your association of proxy with something illegal/underhand is misplaced and suggests you don't understand this part of the web. There are lots of reasons people may want to use proxies. I use them for privacy and when visiting sites I don't trust.

europeforvisitors




msg:3342315
 6:32 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Google doesn't get to decide the intentions of the webmaster - just whether the site meets their TOS.

Google gets to decide what it thinks the Webmaster's intentions were, and what to do if it doesn't agree with those intentions.

Still, in this case, the issue may be something else: such as the quality of ad clicks from a proxy's home page.

AdSenseAdvisor




msg:3342384
 8:21 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

While I can't speak for your specific situation, Rolozo, I'm happy to try to clarify our concerns about proxy sites.

Publishers are permitted to place Google ads on the homepages of anonymous proxy sites, but not in the frames around pages viewed through the proxy. The concern is that the publisher is unable to control the content of pages framed by his ads.

Regarding invalid clicks, you're always welcome to review your site's traffic logs for any suspicious activity and notify the AdSense team of your findings at:
[google.com...]

Hope that helps,
-ASA

oddsod




msg:3342477
 10:35 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Publishers are permitted to place Google ads on the homepages of anonymous proxy sites, but not in the frames around pages viewed through the proxy. The concern is that the publisher is unable to control the content of pages framed by his ads.

Sounds perfectly reasonable (and sensible) to me. Thanks for your input, ASA.

Quadrille




msg:3342484
 10:40 pm on May 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Exactly.

I have no objection to proxies whatsoever; just their use of of adsense against someone else's property; in breech of copyright law, as well as Adsense TOS.

That is why Adsense cancelled payment, there's really no doubt.

Is there?

Scurramunga




msg:3342654
 3:59 am on May 18, 2007 (gmt 0)

There are lots of reasons people may want to use proxies. I use them for privacy and when visiting sites I don't trust.

In the past I have used them to see my pages (containing adsense ads) as they would appear outside my country.

Rolozo




msg:3342828
 9:42 am on May 18, 2007 (gmt 0)

Respected members this answer from ASA has cleared what you were asking in above posts.... i have also told you that adsense ads are only allowed to place on
homepage not on proxified pages. This is what ASA said


Publishers are permitted to place Google ads on the homepages of anonymous proxy sites, but not in the frames around pages viewed through the proxy. The concern is that the publisher is unable to control the content of pages framed by his ads.

Thank You ASA for involving in this threads (which was required too). The main purpose of this thread is that why Adsense doesn't want to give list of IP addresses which were involved in invalid click activity? Wouldn't it make life easy for publishers by blocking those ip addresses?

And in case (like me) when publishers have multiple different niche sites why Adsense doesn't give information about sites on which invalid click activity happened?
It would help in 'very closely' monitoring sites activity.

By not giving information about above two aspects, publishers are left in dark without knowing what happened, when it happened, and who did it?

In case invalid clicks sum is way more than what publisher has earned from particular niche sites all time, wouldn't it be better to give detail about how invalid click sum was reached?

In my case its more than 40% what i have earned in last 6 months from all sites. And if i calculate earnings from proxy sites only then total deductions is about 3 times more than what i have earned on proxies all time (1 and half year).

In email communication adsense support suggested me to exercise extreme care when driving traffic to site with google ads. But when i gave them my adwords account details and detail of my spendings on my all sites but they didn't give me any clear answer whether invalid click traffic came from adwords or not?

To date i have seen no credit in my adwords account. I have also given details of my google analytics account in which google adsense click is set as 'goal' and there is no unusual activity recorded in analytics account. Direct visitors has very low CTR (of goal). While traffic source from Adwords have high CTR. Again adsense team just replied me that they couldn't give more information about their 'proprietary detection system' while i was not asking them about their 'proprietary detection system', i was asking about details which would help in future to avoid this issue.

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