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Adsense Done For Because of PayPerAction?
Its the death of adsense for sure
newborn

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 12:41 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Does anyone agree that CPA or Sales leads ad will kill of Google Adsense, and help Google Adwords.

This will definately draw more advertisers from CJ, and all those other people. Buffing up the Google Advertising Dollar as I am sure that there will still be some cost associated with having ads in the SERPS, but revenue must come in for Google and we will get little or nothing.

Now Yahoo Publisher Network must follow suit. All better switch to YPN when you still have time.

Your thoughts anyone.

 

cmendla

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 12:57 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

One thing about the CPA model is that it would have to be parasite free. It looks like the google CPA would depend on a cookie. If so, any 'browser helpers' that cookie stuff would kill things for the publishers.

Adsense is not cookie dependant for getting the commission to the correct publisher.thus it avoids most of the problems.

In order for an affiliate or CPA type arrangement to really work for a publisher, the affiliate program has to have a zero tolerance for anyone who is using cookie stuffing or affiliate id swapping to steal commissions (google "ben edlemann" for details on the issue).

A lot of the merchants and affiliate programs don't really care if cookie stuffing and id swapping is going on. They still make their money even if the real content publisher is getting cheated. A couple of years back, there was an outrage when one of the larger affiliate programs gave a publisher of the year award to a company that was using adware and had no real sites of their own.

Now, back to google. Google has been painfully slow to address the MFA issue. There have been dozens of threads here asking why Google doesnt' get rid of the MFA sites. A recurring thought is that they really don't care since the MFAs make money for them. I can't say if that is true or not, but MFAs still are running adsense and they have infested the serps for certain areas.

The only way that CPA would work for me, as a publisher, would be if Google would either

1. Use some technology that would eliminate the cookie stuffing/id swapping problem

and/or

2. Announce AND execute a zero tolerance policy for parasite activity.

cg

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 1:16 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

CPA is just a product extension, like Cherry Coke or dark-chocolate M&Ms. It won't be a replacement for the existing AdSense product. Why would Google want to dump an existing product that's generating more than $1 billion in revenues every quarter?

CPA may help to attract advertisers who are leery of the CPC network, and it will help Google get a piece of the market that CJ and other affiliate networks are now serving. But it isn't a direct replacement for AdSense, because--among other things--it isn't a contextual, "paste in the code and let Google do the work" solution.

Finally, AdSense CPA is just a beta at this point. There's no guarantee that it will even be around a year from now, let alone be a threat to the CPC model.

hyperkik

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 1:45 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

I am curious, though, as to whether a contextual version will eventually be produced, or if either by opting in or by default they will eventually be presented in ad blocks along with CPM and CPC ads based upon their overall performance.

Philosopher

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 1:58 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

I would bet they will do just that at one point (become contextual as the other ads currently are). It seems a natural evolution to it.

[edited by: Philosopher at 1:59 pm (utc) on Mar. 21, 2007]

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 2:00 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

I am curious, though, as to whether a contextual version will eventually be produced

I'm curious, too. Contextual CPA ads would offer another way to profit from content that doesn't fit in well with my existing affiliate programs. As announced, though, the CPA option doesn't sound like it's worth the bother.

FourDegreez

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 3:08 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

The reason CPA won't replace CPC is simply because most publishers won't go for it. It's work to hand-select ads and hand-place them on the right pages, and for what? The CPA model is tilted in the advertiser's favor, so there's really no reward for the additional work required of the publisher.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 3:19 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

The CPA model is tilted in the advertiser's favor, so there's really no reward for the additional work required of the publisher.

On the contrary: The rewards can be much greater with CPA than with CPC, if the publisher has traffic that converts. The real question isn't whether CPA works; it's whether there's a benefit to working through a network like Google or Commission Junction instead of dealing directly with the affiliate partners.

farmboy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member farmboy us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 4:00 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

The reason CPA won't replace CPC is simply because most publishers won't go for it.

I will. I've already applied.

It's work to hand-select ads and hand-place them on the right pages...

With work comes rewards.

The CPA model is tilted in the advertiser's favor...

How so? If I don't earn a satisfactory amount after placing an ad on my site, I'll remove it. If the advertiser wants me to send him traffic, he has to produce an ad and a site that performs.

By the way, there seems to be two threads here discussing essentially the same thing - [webmasterworld.com...]

FarmBoy

farmboy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member farmboy us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 4:02 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

The real question isn't whether CPA works; it's whether there's a benefit to working through a network like Google or Commission Junction instead of dealing directly with the affiliate partners.

Benefit 1: No need to meet multiple minimum payout requirements to get a check

Benefit 2: No need to maintain multiple accounts, passwords, keep up to date with terms, etc.

FarmBoy

jomaxx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 5:38 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Even if publishers sign up with the program, it looks like they'll have to individually select what campaigns to participate in. I suspect that will make it hard for advertisers to get a worthwhile number of impressions. Affiliate networks like, as well as individual merchants, have to spend a significant amount of time and effort marketing to publishers and letting them know about new opportunities.

farmboy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member farmboy us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 6:04 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Even if publishers sign up with the program, it looks like they'll have to individually select what campaigns to participate in.

I wonder if there will be some type of well organized index of ads to select from?

I suspect that will make it hard for advertisers to get a worthwhile number of impressions.

I think publishers will take care of that. There will be websites, newsletters, ebooks, etc. listing advertisers who pay well and are seeking publishers.

An advertiser could get a lot of attention by offering a premium reward for a successful conversion and then lower the amount as necessary as more publishers come on board.

Let the marketplace decide.

FarmBoy

jomaxx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 7:59 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Oh yeah, as a publisher I'm all in favor of advertisers having to court us with compelling offers. I'm just saying that advertisers who see this as a way to get cheap, risk-free traffic may be disappointed.

Getting meaningful traffic with a CPA campaign requires a lot more work -- planning, marketing, and trust-building -- than simply bidding X cents a click.

newborn

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 8:26 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Really guys intereseting Europeforvisitors stated that the CPA might just not work because they would not get the clicks. But is it that you are assuming that Google wont offer it up to advertisers themselves?

If i was Google I would offer it up, I mean Google can definately track sales through their own adwords program. And forget the content network, give them the MFA's and take all the big boys in the search.

In further discussion with my friends we dont see how say how it would work with a real estate website. I mean just no cookies there could work out. I have one a good CTR 17.10%. I make about 30.00 on every 1,000 impressions. But if that was replaced by CPA how would i know if the person who clicked eventually bought the property.

Most of these ads are realty agents anyway getting a measly 5% and how much would i get, plus how long would i have to wait?

So it must be industry specific. It would work well with online travel and downloadable products but not on some.

Any other industries that might get the nod f

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 8:29 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

So it must be industry specific. It would work well with online travel and downloadable products but not on some.

And that's just one reason why--like AdSense "image ads" or site-targeted CPM ads--it will be an additional AdSense product, not a replacement for existing AdSense products.

FourDegreez

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 9:18 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

The CPA model is tilted in the advertiser's favor...

How so?

Under CPC, the advertiser has already paid you for the click and now its their responsibility to convert it. CPA takes the risk away from the advertiser and puts it on the publisher. If they can't convert it, it's your loss, not theirs. Meanwhile they get free branding and perhaps free leads or profit off the traffic (by themselves displaying ads, for instance).

If I don't earn a satisfactory amount after placing an ad on my site, I'll remove it.

It's a lot of trial and error, and again you are assuming all the risk. So maybe after you've put a bunch of time in you discover CPA works for you as a publisher, and maybe you end up with a few extra bucks at the end of the day. Great. But then again you've probably already discovered this years ago via CJ, Linkshare, et. al. or direct affiliate relationships, so what is Google really bringing to the table here?

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 10:19 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Under CPC, the advertiser has already paid you for the click and now its their responsibility to convert it. CPA takes the risk away from the advertiser and puts it on the publisher.

Sure, in the same way that CPC takes risk away from the advertiser and puts it on the publisher (and the ad network). But higher risk = greater rewards for publishers who deliver quality traffic and leads.

FWIW, some publishers of "content sites" earn a lot more from affiliate partnerships than from AdSense. If you've got the right topic and audience, CPA can be very lucrative.

potentialgeek

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 10:54 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Under CPC, the advertiser has already paid you for the click and now it[']s their responsibility to convert it. CPA takes the risk away from the advertiser and puts it on the publisher. If they can't convert it, it's your loss, not theirs. Meanwhile they get free branding and perhaps free leads or profit off the traffic (by themselves displaying ads, for instance).

Free branding? What are you talking about?

The time it takes for publishers to determine if an ad is converting leaves no time for branding. Ads that suck don't convert and don't brand, except negatively.

The problem for Google is to offer advertisers who already know affiliate programs work--and are currently using them--to remove them and switch to Google.

Since they are non-contextual, they now run side by side with Adsense. What is Google going to offer in payout and perks that trumps CJ et al?

What good is the Beta with no discussion of rates? That's the bottom line. Google can have all the technology set up and bugs removed. So what? If it doesn't pay more, it's just a geeky trip.

p/g

atreides9999

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 11:09 pm on Mar 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

From a publishers point of view it varies from page to page weather CPA or CPC is better. If google does this for us, publishers should win.

If is is contexual, the good-old google algos should pick it up after a while a show what ever is the most profitable. In this case google is on the pulishers side, because it generates the most profit.

Cost-per-action, for me works well on certain parts of my site which have a high tendancy to convert, and have high resulting payments.

Advertisers will just have to learn to balance their budget between the two, or choose one. However, they will still need to throw enough money at it, to out bid the CPC..

I for one axed CJ. I dont like them, I would like to see google move into this market.

In any case, I see more money for me... (but Im an optimist)


newborn

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 4:13 am on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

Guys lets look on it from the point of view as advertiser. I for one am i sell a downloadable product and sometimes no matter how i drill down my ad it just does not convert well. I mean a winning ratio would be anywhere between how much you pay for the click (or traffic) vs how much products are sold and the margin in between. Positive = a win and negative = a loss.

CJ and Linkshare etc dont just take on any old bloke. They are picky and choosy. If Google is a free for all then if its the egg them i am definately in the yolk. I have to be a part of this. I would flog it and so what if I got 1,000,000 clicks and sold only one product Im only paying commission on one product. Whopee!

But as we said undoubtedly the product would be industry specific, how would MFA's become cornered and die a slow and painful death?

MFA's rejoice. If I am a MFA I would pick an industry that pays per action. I would sell microwaves. If one does not sell then I dont pay. But construct my site about Real Estate which cant go CPA and win off the CTR. Does it matter to me because I wont pay unless someone buys my 1950's antique microwave.
So really what does google want to achieve with this?

jomaxx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 5:01 am on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

Newborn: Huh?

PowerUp

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 7:51 am on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

Newborn: Huh?

I think what newborn was trying to say about the MFAs in his last sentence is something like this...

Say I have a MFA website pumped up with lots of keywords for widgets. I display adsense, so the ads display will be for widgets. But hidden in the corner is also a link where I sell the old microwave.

Now I bid adwords for widgets, CPA, and define the successful outcome as someone buying an old microwave from my site.

Targetted visitors looking for widgets come to my site, and all of them will leave without even clicking on the microwave link. The visitors coming to my site won't cost me anything since none of them convert.

And for those who leave via adsense,,... thats 100% profit for me. I don't even need to arbitrage.

MFAs can only win.... and this time, win bigger by stealing your traffic without even giving you that $0.01

P/S: I dunno if you can choose advertisers in Googles PPA. If you can, then certainly the above scenario will not happen because you won't choose to display the MFA's ads in the first place.

[edited by: PowerUp at 7:53 am (utc) on Mar. 22, 2007]

thegreatpretender

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 8:32 am on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

I think what newborn was trying to say about the MFAs in his last sentence is something like this...

Say I have a MFA website pumped up with lots of keywords for widgets. I display adsense, so the ads display will be for widgets. But hidden in the corner is also a link where I sell the old microwave.

Now I bid adwords for widgets, CPA, and define the successful outcome as someone buying an old microwave from my site.

Targetted visitors looking for widgets come to my site, and all of them will leave without even clicking on the microwave link. The visitors coming to my site won't cost me anything since none of them convert.

And for those who leave via adsense,,... thats 100% profit for me. I don't even need to arbitrage.

MFAs can only win.... and this time, win bigger by stealing your traffic without even giving you that $0.01

P/S: I dunno if you can choose advertisers in Googles PPA. If you can, then certainly the above scenario will not happen because you won't choose to display the MFA's ads in the first place.

That will not happen because the publisher is the one who'd decide which cpa ads to show on his/her website. Surely, you won't allow MFA site to appear on your site.

ken_b

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ken_b us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 10:02 am on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

so what if I got 1,000,000 clicks and sold only one product Im only paying commission on one product.

1,000,000 clicks/1 conversion.... lol

I can tell you that wouldn't be happening with ads on my site. CPA advertizers would get a pretty short rope, they'll either convert a reasonable percentage of the traffic I send or their ads will be pulled promptly.

That means the advertizer has to write an ad that people actually click, and then convert a reasonable number of those those clicks.

I'd take some responsibility for showing ads that draw clicks, IF I actually choose the specific ads that appear on my site, but the rope won't be any longer.

farmboy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member farmboy us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 1:05 pm on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

Now I bid adwords for widgets, CPA, and define the successful outcome as someone buying an old microwave from my site.

Targetted visitors looking for widgets come to my site, and all of them will leave without even clicking on the microwave link.

If you can find publishers willing to display your microwave ad on their site and never see a microwave sold, then the above will work.

And of course it would depend on Google not having some type of minimum criteria to allow an advertiser to participate in the CPA program. I think there will be some sort of criteria to weed out the hucksters.

FarmBoy

farmboy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member farmboy us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 1:08 pm on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

But construct my site about Real Estate which cant go CPA ...

I see no reason a real estate site couldn't use CPA. The "A" in "CPA" doesn't have to involve someone buying a house after clicking an ad, it could be something as simple as generating a qualified lead.

The "A" could even be a "pageview."

FarmBoy

photo200

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 1:24 pm on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

It's funny.

Because of StupidPrice(TM) - whole adsense is ALREADY CPA model not CPC. Now it will be just worse for publishers.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 2:11 pm on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

Because of StupidPrice(TM) - whole adsense is ALREADY CPA model not CPC. Now it will be just worse for publishers.

Not for publishers whose traffic converts. However, CPA certainly isn't right for everyone, and it requires more knowledge and effort by the publisher than CPM and CPC ads do.

FourDegreez

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 2:50 pm on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

What might be nice would be a hybrid system, where a publisher earns a discounted CPC and an additional amount for conversions. This would spread the risk around better.

By the way, newborn's example was a bit extreme, but similar things can and do happen. Say I define a conversion as a sale of a product. Most of the traffic you send me doesn't buy my product, but they a) sign up for my newsletter, b) join my forum, c) I sell their email to spammers, d) my traffic numbers are increased (good for marketing, higher Alexa rank, etc)., e) I'm displaying ads and making a profit, f) maybe they'll eventually buy a product a few months from now, g) use your imagination.

I have definitely seen affiliates who profit off traffic in several different ways, but only pay for one of them. It's not always easy to spot this. You may leave their ads up for a few weeks to see how they perform before deciding they don't earn as much as you had hoped, so you take them down. But you just wasted your time and lost money. Now do the same trial and error process for a dozen other advertisers.

I had one advertiser on CJ who paid for sales and for leads. Earnings were pretty good. I guess they decided they were paying out too much, so they eliminated commissions on leads. They were still getting leads, but no longer paying for them. I now have the same advertiser show up through AdSense, and they are back to paying about what they used to pay (when it was sales and leads), because that's what the traffic is worth under AdSense's auction system, and they can't manipulate it in their favor.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3288294 posted 2:59 pm on Mar 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

What might be nice would be a hybrid system, where a publisher earns a discounted CPC and an additional amount for conversions. This would spread the risk around better.

The problem with that approach is that it won't attract advertisers who are leery of the "content network" and don't want to pay for junk clicks, period. Since Google's objective is (presumably) to attract advertisers who aren't already using AdSense, a pure CPA option is likely to be more successful than a hybrid model, even if the latter might be more appealing to publishers.

This 46 message thread spans 2 pages: 46 ( [1] 2 > >
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