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Google AdSense Forum

This 36 message thread spans 2 pages: 36 ( [1] 2 > >     
Leaving AdSense
better earnings doing it yourself
beakertrail

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 7:15 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

After 4 years of running a website and using AdSense to fund it ever since AdSense started I have finally put together an arrangement with an advertising company to provide banner media on my website.

In many ways this is going back to the 'old way' of doing things but I have some major problems with AdSense which makes me very uncomfortable about using them any longer:

1) Click Fraud - Always the potential of being turned off due to click fraud. I've never seen anything odd in my stats but having this potential looming and Google's poor response times to dealing with people who have suspended accounts is not a secure business model.

2) Random earnings - Every day is like a lottery. Earnings rarely have anything to do with traffic levels or even the number of clicks. If I invest in traffic it has no guarantee of a return.

3) Relationship - Google seems to be getting worse and worse at dealing with questions, complaints and account queries. Having an important business relationship which is operated at arm's length doesn't do much for long term development.

Moving to a CPM only model makes more sense for me at this time. Despite having over 5% CTR with AdSense, earnings change daily as much as double / half the previous day - and this is a high traffic website.

So, despite Google's AdSense giving me the incentive to build more pages, market my website and probably get it to the position it is today, the relationship will go no further.

A switch to CPM earnings will mean average monthly income from advertising will increase between 2 and 30 times. I also have a more secure business relationship where I know that if anything strange happens I will get a phone call to help sort it out, not an automatic email saying my account has been suspended.

Anyway, that's my position. Thanks AdSense, but see ya...

 

aeiouy

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 7:20 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

Not a bad path.

I think the biggest problem, besides and/or including those you listed, is that Google does not really do much to maximize revenue for Adsense Publishers.

The reason why payouts are so pitifully low for a lot of segments is that most advertisers simply do not participate in the content network. You will find a lot of discussions of PPC advertising begin with "Turn off the content network right away."

This means less dollars, and lower bids and less competition. If you look you can actually get really low click prices for the content network where you might pay 10x-20x more to compete in the search side.

I definately think the bloom is long gone in terms of people thinking adsense is some kind of catch-all where they can plug it in and forget about it and maximize revenues. In some cases it is a good tool to use to monetize a site. In a lot of cases it can be used to enhance an overall plan. As a sole source of revenue, probably not a very good choice for most people.

rbacal



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 7:38 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

I definately think the bloom is long gone in terms of people thinking adsense is some kind of catch-all where they can plug it in and forget about it and maximize revenues.

For some, yes, although it's clear lots of people still believe all they have to do is buy 100 domains, and go. In any event, it's not a surprise, at least to me, and it probably will get worse, as the industry (not just adsense) shakes out, just like it did for banners.

As for alternatives, I guess if adsense is yielding a ECPM of .50-.60 cents or lower, you can do as well with banner companies, but frankly, it really isn't "easier".

The quality of a lot of banners are poor, pay poorly, and really make sites look tacky (smilies ads, epileptic anim, etc). Fill rates have to be watched perpetually, chains made, and on and on. And, at best you are still not going to get above $1.00 cpm. Freq. capping in particular is an issue.

We would use banners if we found a network that ONLY served quality ads for quality sites. We can't find even one network. So, for many of the same reasons why the OP is leaving AS, we can't use banners, etc.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 8:05 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

I prefer a "tripod" approach of:

- CPM display ads that are targeted to my audience.

- AdSense contextual ads that are usually targeted to specific page topics.

- Affiliate links.

Each type of advertising has its own strengths, and the three types complement each other nicely.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 8:29 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

I agree with EFV 100% as I do the same thing with 2 extra twists:

- Lead referral income, not CPM or PPC at all, people pay for leads.

- Direct advertising sales as my experience with so-called "media" companies was spotty at best.

jomaxx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 8:36 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

monthly income from advertising will increase between 2 and 30 times

I doubt this, but if so it makes all your other reasons for leaving irrelevant.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 8:48 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

I have finally put together an arrangement with an advertising company to provide banner media on my website.

Good luck getting paid. I have heard some advertising agencies who don't pay or take up to six months or more to pay. My personal experience: I had a deal with a major global advertising agency from New York and I had to bring in a lawyer (flash them my gun, so to speak), in order to get paid.

Your first point as a reason for leaving is pure fear. Anything is possible and if I dwelled on everything that could I wouldn't leave my house. In other words it's pointless to even dwell on the possibility that something could happen because likely it won't.

The other point about stability is a good one. My figures swing about but that's generally for concrete reasons I can deduce. So I can take measures to protect, as much as I can, from fluctuations. Some of which includes building more sites. I find it important to dig in, do the research, find out the most popular pages, what's getting clicked, etc.

I just signed up to a tracking program that renders heat maps of where on a specific page users are clicking. You can do a one day, one week, or even a month long test to aggregate the data. I really like gathering information and making decisions based on that.

beakertrail

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 8:56 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yep, eCPM of $0.50 is madness when the same space can be sold privately at $5.00 or more... in my experience, I sell this space for about $10 (20 times more than AdSense).

ronburk

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 10:00 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

In other words it's pointless to even dwell on the possibility that something could happen because likely it won't.

Oddly, the mortgage company seems to disagree with this outlook on life, and insists I maintain an insurance policy against possibilities that likely won't happen.

Or, reaching into the Simpson's Big Book of Philosophy:


Grimes: What's this? (reads sign that says 'Extremely High Voltage') Well, I don't need safety gloves, because I'm Homer Simp... (Zap!)

beakertrail

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 10:37 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yes.
It is a rational fear because Adsense publishers are being suspended on a daily basis.

I have to make responsible decisions relating to risk and AdSense may be a low risk for chance of suspension but if it happens, resolution is too lengthy that the disruption in cash flow would be disasterous.

I consider it high enough a risk to include it in my list of reasons for my departure from AdSense.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 10:51 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

I agree with the OP's other points and also for a need to diversify and not depend on AdSense. I also agree that AdSense may not be a good fit and the OP is probably making a good decision to walk away from AdSense.

Oddly, the mortgage company seems to disagree with this outlook on life, and insists I maintain an insurance policy against possibilities that likely won't happen.

We're compelled to by law in some states.

However there are millions of things to worry about including your cat's health, is that cough a sign of impending cancer, is your lover faithful, is someone plotting to kidnap your child, is your next door neighbor a criminal and so on and so on; including whether your host is going to fry and Google is going to hate you when you get out of bed in the morning.

These are all legitimate things to worry about. But short of getting rid of your cat, your child, and your lover, those worries and a million more you haven't thought of will still be there. When do you put the brakes on all the millions of things there are to fear?

I don't believe it is rational to fear being kicked out and, no offense intended, but it sounds like an irrational fear.

[edited by: martinibuster at 10:56 pm (utc) on Sep. 5, 2006]

jhood

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 10:53 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

EFV's sagacious comments aren't getting much attention even though they combine the best points of all the others. He advocates a mix of ad types -- exactly the strategy used by the consistently profitable and successful sites.

Many Web sites also lend themselves to other sources of income. One of our sites has gathered so much data of a certain type that for years we have used it to produce research that is sold to companies in the appropriate sectors (perfectly legitimate market research data, not email addresses or anything even slightly improper). It's not as lucrative as the more successful ad programs but it is very steady income that pays the rent, and then some.

jomaxx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 11:02 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

A factor of two is huge (never mind the 10X, 20X and 30X that have been alluded to).

If you could earn twice as much with another company you'd be crazy not to leave. OTOH, if you only earn half as much with another company, you'd be crazy to leave regardless of a perceived sense of lower risk or greater consistency. You take out insurance against catastrophes, not against variable earnings or poor communication.

Car_Guy

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 11:26 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

1) Click Fraud - Always the potential of being turned off due to click fraud. I've never seen anything odd in my stats but having this potential looming and Google's poor response times to dealing with people who have suspended accounts is not a secure business model.

2) Random earnings - Every day is like a lottery. Earnings rarely have anything to do with traffic levels or even the number of clicks. If I invest in traffic it has no guarantee of a return.

3) Relationship - Google seems to be getting worse and worse at dealing with questions, complaints and account queries. Having an important business relationship which is operated at arm's length doesn't do much for long term development.

4) Junk ads - In order to keep our sites relatively "pure", we need to regularly spend time checking all of our sites' pages for ads that are useless or in some cases misleading. An example is the ringtones sites that promise "free" ringtones that you can't get without providing personal information that they use to spam you.

Khensu

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 11:51 pm on Sep 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

2) Random earnings - Every day is like a lottery. Earnings rarely have anything to do with traffic levels or even the number of clicks. If I invest in traffic it has no guarantee of a return.

mmmmmmmm......

Rodney

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 12:36 am on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

I agree with EFV in that adsense and other banner agencies don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I sell advertising directly to advertisers on several of my websites. Those same websites run adsense successfully and also have targeted affiliate links that pay per conversion.

It is a rational fear because Adsense publishers are being suspended on a daily basis.

I wouldn't see that as a sign that "oh my gosh, I could be next". There are lots of information that we don't have available on all the "I've been banned" topics. We usually only hear one side and don't have all the specifics.

You could also look at the fact that Adsense publishers are making hundreds of thousands of dollars daily too and see that as a reason to keep them as part of your online income strategy.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I also agree that making a decision based on fear isn't a good way of making business moves.

bordering

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 12:37 am on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

I would personally cut and run way before it reached $0.5 per K but I guess it varies massively between sectors.

Too many eggs in one basket is a cliche but true. What if the CPM advertiser can't monetise your traffic and pulls? A mix of PPC, affiliates and direct advertisers has the potential for more secuirity.

Compworld

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 1:00 am on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

Don't forget, if you have a low CTR, your eCPM can be bottom feed. I've never had an eCPM with Google (when I was with them) more than .70 or .80 cents. But I've been with YPN since the beginning, and my eCPM went from the .30's to now around $5.00 per day. If YPN goes international, Google's stronghold will be severaly hurt. On the other hand, I also use other networks on the same page. Never pops or those in-between ads; but they help complement the income. Networks like Tribal Fusion, Casale, and Burst Media are all good premiere tier 1 networks. I then default them down to a network that fills all the excess inventory. That is the right way to channel right.

kanetrain

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 1:00 am on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

I agree with EFV.

Mitigate the risk and get rid of your dependency on one source. In other words, use several.

There aren't many mutually exclusive ad companies. Even Yahoo and Google will allow you to be a part of both as long as you don't show both on the same page.

If you can rotate... try that before throwing Adsense under the truck completely.

carguy84

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 3:14 am on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hey buster, if that heatmap program is *insane* it's a great app. There's a couple features I hope they implement, but all and all it's cool, however a little pricey.

Also, if you have many pages, but all of them a "template" for lack of a better term, it's make it a little hard doing analysis. I wish you could categorize results some how. I'm going to keep using it another month, but if they don't seem like they're actively releasing updates, then I may look into building something a little more robust.

Chip-

Dabu The Dragon

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 4:09 am on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

I also have a more secure business relationship where I know that if anything strange happens I will get a phone call to help sort it out, not an automatic email saying my account has been suspended.

Ouch! LOL! Diversify is the magic word. If AS is the only income stream then prepare to live a paranoid existence. Been there, done that.

bwnbwn

WebmasterWorld Senior Member bwnbwn us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 11:12 am on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

We have websites that do both.

One brings in 6 figures a month selling banner ads the another with adsense 2400 a month in revenue.

**Note this is just a comparission on two of our sites that are close to the same traffic generated.

Difference in traffic about a 1000 a day less in visits on the adsense site.

What we do is work the sites and use adsense to generate income till enough traffic is built to sell banner ads.

O yea for ,jomaxx I doubt it one, we just sold two banner ads on the adsense site for 10,000 a month. Never doubt something you don't have a clue about looks like to me you called the man a liar, and really all it shows is your lack of knowledge in his statement.

See our income just went up from 2400 month to 10,000 a month so you tell me I am not good in math on the % increase in revenue per month.

I love adsense it really works very well with our web site model and will continue to work sites using adsense till we can find a buyer or buyers for our banner ads.

beakertrail your switch makes good sense we sell our spots on a monthly fixed fee so we know the income. Work toward this method as you will see a much better return on each visit you generate.

There is always another side to the story now you have to deal with customers unhappy with the leads, traffic, etc and etc. so there is more work involved other than making sure the deposit hit the correct account with adsense.

Might have to buy traffic now we spend about 20,000 a month on PPC for the clients were you were generating most likely free traffic you will have to spend now.

There is no perfect world but I feel using both methods to generate income for payroll, taxes etc and etc and etc. makes good sense.

One other thing beakertrail I would assume you have already got several sites going as a backup?

We all remember the Bigdaddy!

whoisgregg

WebmasterWorld Senior Member whoisgregg us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 1:43 pm on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

It is a rational fear because Adsense publishers are being suspended on a daily basis.

People are arrested for vehicular homicide on a daily basis. I still drive a car.

I don't run people over with it, so I don't have to worry about getting arrested.

httpwebwitch

WebmasterWorld Administrator httpwebwitch us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 1:47 pm on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

I concur with martinibuster and others that the safest strategy is to diversify. Don't drop Google entirely, but don't depend on them entirely either. The online biz is akin to the stock market: a large and diverse portfolio is essential for stability.

If you have been depending 100% on Google until now, I applaud your effort to find other sources of revenue.

drshields

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 2:39 pm on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

On a side note -- how do you 'turn off' the content network, as a publisher?

Maxima

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 3:11 pm on Sep 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

On a side note -- how do you 'turn off' the content network, as a publisher?

Huh.. as a publisher you ARE the content network..

danimal



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 2:43 am on Sep 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>Yep, eCPM of $0.50 is madness when the same space can be sold privately at $5.00 or more...<<<

since you have a much better alternative, ditching an $0.50 ecpm seems like the right decision to me.

it would be interesting to know if your average monthly epc went up or down during the time that you were using adsense.

aeiouy

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 3:13 am on Sep 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

People are arrested for vehicular homicide on a daily basis. I still drive a car.

I don't run people over with it, so I don't have to worry about getting arrested.

I used to feel that way too.. Unfortunately, I just just got suspended and appealed denied from Adsense. I have always been a strong proponent of Adsense and their fraud policies. However, I can tell you straight up, you can do everything by the book and get banned. I thought the review and appeal process would set things straight, but it did not happen.

beakertrail

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 3:18 am on Sep 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

my concerns exactly.
you dont have to do anything bad to be in the doghouse!

moTi

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3072617 posted 4:04 am on Sep 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

aeiouy, you mean "banned for no reason"?

that's hard to believe, you know..

This 36 message thread spans 2 pages: 36 ( [1] 2 > >
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