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Matt Cutts About the Next Penguin Update
abhishekmishra




msg:4485417
 10:27 am on Aug 16, 2012 (gmt 0)

Matt Cutts discussed at SES San Francisco to talk on stage and answer questions...

When people asked Cutts about the next Penguin Update he thought: You don’t want the next Penguin update, the engineers have been working hard.


For Penguin:- The updates are going the be jarring and julting for a while.


Webmasters who want to get as much visibility as possible should look at the spectrum of value you’re adding.

 

indyank




msg:4485933
 4:48 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

From Matt Cutts' latest clarification at seroundtable:

we're still in the early stages of Penguin where the engineers are incorporating new signals and iterating to improve the algorithm. Because of that, expect that the next few Penguin updates will take longer, incorporate additional signals, and as a result will have more noticeable impact. It's not the case that people should just expect data refreshes for Penguin quite yet.



This sounds like something that was rolled out before it was ready.


No. It sounds like they aren't going to do away with the existing signals. Rather they would only be including additional signals. If what you consider as half-baked had already negatively impacted a number of websites, that remark definitely sounds ominous for several more websites. netmeg is right. :(

[edited by: indyank at 4:49 pm (utc) on Aug 17, 2012]

Propools




msg:4485934
 4:48 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

With the Penguin update and all the rants, this came to mind, “How is the Penguin update similar(if at all) to the Penguin in the Batman movies”.

    The Penguin is Oswald Cobblepot. He is an enemy of Batman.

    Like many Batman villains, there have been different versions of the Penguin on page and screen, but some key characteristics remain constant.

    The Penguin is so called because he resembles the aquatic Antarctic bird, with a squat body and a long pointed nose. He usually accentuates the resemblance by wearing a tuxedo, often accessorized with a top hat, spats, white gloves, monocle, and a cigarette holder.

    The Penguin's other great arsenal is his birds, which are most often penguins, but can be any kind of fowl. He is an expert trainer, and his flocks can be the size of small armies.

    The Penguin's greatest weapon, however, may be his devious mind. He has often convinced the public that he is an honest citizen, even to the point of becoming a mayoral candidate. While he is a very intelligent and cultured man, enjoying opera, fine cooking and reads Nietzsche and Goethe, the Penguin hates most people and considers himself above them, often blaming them for his status as an outcast.

    The Penguin's weakness is his vanity. No matter what the crime or misdeed, he desires recognition, and Batman has often exploited this desire to trap him.
    [imdb.com...]


I wonder if Google would consider naming the next big update – “Umbrella”.
Oh, the positive marketing which could hatch from that.
OR
Is it more like The Penguins of Madagascar [imdb.com] or The March of the Penguin [imdb.com]?

I don't care, I LOVE PENGUINS.
[google.com...]

TypicalSurfer




msg:4485945
 5:05 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

Okay, so Matt spoke from the google heavens, or "misspoke" depending on whose version you want to entertain (not believe) but at the end of the day, who here is happily awaiting the next iteration of the anti-SEO iteration?

netmeg




msg:4485962
 5:47 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

Happily? Not particularly, but I have a couple client competitors using dodgy linking that were missed by the first Penguin; so I'm looking forward to seeing what the next iteration brings there.

diberry




msg:4485974
 6:24 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

"Oh right, yeah, links and over-optimization. Luckily I am good on both fronts."

So was I, and Penguin took 80% of my Google traffic. I am not penalized (asked for reinclusion and got that confirmed) and I never have had a warning email about unnatural backlinks or anything. An SEO pro from this forum looked at my site and was mystified. I've never really done any SEO. I have four sites that are similar but in different niches and only one of them was hit. The biggest difference? The hit site had a lot of genuine, editorial outbound links. It's possible Penguin mistook genuine linking for a spam tactic. You can bet I'm linking out far less now.

TypicalSurfer




msg:4485990
 6:43 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

When you are running an anti-SEO overlay on document collections, terms like "dodgy" are only used to impute innocent motive. Poor google, the victim of "dodgy" SEO. I think the takeaway here is "anti-SEO", current success is on the bubble, it's only a matter of time.

I see SEO and PROMOTION as being interchangeable, I suspect google does as well, so if you are promoting a web property I wouldn't get to comfortable. The trend that I see coming from google is that if you want to PROMOTE a site, put a CC# into the adwords interface. It's pretty simple really.

LOL

[edited by: TypicalSurfer at 7:23 pm (utc) on Aug 17, 2012]

onebuyone




msg:4486000
 7:08 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

I am happily awaiting next shakeup, because there is noting I can loose at this point. I feels like it was year 2003.

BaseballGuy




msg:4486009
 7:19 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)


"Oh right, yeah, links and over-optimization. Luckily I am good on both fronts."

So was I, and Penguin took 80% of my Google traffic. I am not penalized (asked for reinclusion and got that confirmed) and I never have had a warning email about unnatural backlinks or anything. An SEO pro from this forum looked at my site and was mystified. I've never really done any SEO. I have four sites that are similar but in different niches and only one of them was hit. The biggest difference? The hit site had a lot of genuine, editorial outbound links. It's possible Penguin mistook genuine linking for a spam tactic. You can bet I'm linking out far less now.



Here is my .02


Google (Matt Cutts) cannot look at the overall index after an algorithm update. If they could, we would not be seeing these really crappy results.

My theory is that Google has "X" amount of queries they look at. After an algorithm update, then look at the "X" amount of queries and then determine "is this good" or "is this bad".

So this is why Penguin is such a success in their eyes.....because the data set they are looking at, shows just that.

Could this be a simple matter of Google looking at bad data (or incomplete data) in order to make their decisions on whether or not the algorithm is working?

Or could it be that they just don't have control over the 100 head beast that they have created? They chop off a few heads and a few more appear. Some heads cannibalize other heads. Some heads are genetic defects and spend their time drooling from the side of their mouth whilst staring off into space?


Anyone care to comment on that?

TypicalSurfer




msg:4486011
 7:27 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

@BaseballGuy

If you are a click based advertising engine, the documents you would be looking at would be those that interfere with your objective (ad clicks).

BaseballGuy




msg:4486013
 7:34 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)


@BaseballGuy

If you are a click based advertising engine, the documents you would be looking at would be those that interfere with your objective (ad clicks).


Where's the "upvote" button on WebmasterWorld? Or this forum doesn't operate like Reddit?

Propools




msg:4486016
 7:46 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

Wait what about this,
Tux is a penguin character and the official mascot of the Linux kernel.
Originally created as an entry to a Linux logo competition, Tux is the most commonly used icon for Linux, although different Linux distributions depict Tux in various styles.
In video games featuring the character, female counterparts, named Penny and Gown, accompany him.
The character is used in many other Linux programs and as a general symbol of Linux.

[en.wikipedia.org ]

Now, a symbol for Google?

Leosghost




msg:4486017
 8:00 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

An SEO pro from this forum looked at my site and was mystified. I've never really done any SEO. I have four sites that are similar but in different niches and only one of them was hit. The biggest difference? The hit site had a lot of genuine, editorial outbound links.

I think you said somewhere that these links linked out were from a "resource" area or pages ?

Yep.. found it ;)..
[webmasterworld.com...]

I know I'm scared to give out genuine editorial links on the scale I used to. My site that got hit by Penguin was very like three other sites I run, except the hit site used to have "resource pages" full of carefully chosen and constantly updated links readers found useful. That was the only thing an SEO pro who looked at my site could come up with to explain the Penguin hit, and so I removed most of the links on those pages, and I'm linking out minimally these days.

An SEO pro from this forum looked at my site and was mystified.

Someone who knew what they were doing would not be "mystified" ;-)..

Multiple links out from a distinct area of a site..reads like you are selling links from the resource area(s)..

In Google's eyes, selling links, is Google's job via adwords..

What you were/are doing, fits the profile of clumsy link selling, ( not saying you are selling links, but clumsy link sellers do it that way, amongst others ) so you got "dinged"..you are now on the "naughty step"..

Easy to add or remove a link for money from somewhere like that..

Much harder to incorporate a link into the body of your textual content, means re-writing the content to place the link..links out from within the body of content, in phrases or sentences that make sense are far more likely to be natural..G knows that..

So does a "good" SEO..

Tend to agree with TypicalSurfer..;)

webindia123




msg:4486020
 8:24 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

In the short term, Google won't leave links behind.


That short term prolonged for more than a decade..lets see if it continues for another couple of years.


- lalit kumar

webindia123




msg:4486022
 8:28 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

Life was really very good till pandas and penguins were just animals :)

zeus




msg:4486024
 8:46 pm on Aug 17, 2012 (gmt 0)

Penguin is also about links, but im disappointed that they are not able to ignore bad links and want a site owner to check that, that sounds to me that they are on a territory where they can not handle it. Same with Panda why can it not be automatic part of the ranking, for a webmaster it can takes years to get back into the serps.

martinibuster




msg:4486093
 6:57 am on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

Barry is a good reporter and can be relied on to get the story straight. The following comments are not about Barry, but about the others who aren't as honest in their reporting.

I'm tired of the link bait fear reporting. Bloggers and journalists are inferring more than what was said then slapping an ominous title to it. It's a self-aggrandizing trend intended to get attention with link bait articles about the sky falling.

There is nothing here. All Matt said was that the next update wasn't in shape to roll out yet. That's it, that's all there is to the statement.

Link Bait Reporting
The SEO news and blog world has been taking extreme liberties with statements by Matt Cutts and blowing them up to apocalyptic scale to scare the bejeezus out of people. Last month the bogeyman under the bed was that infographics were dead. The month prior it was negative SEO. Then there was talk about the war on SEOs. The sad thing about this kind of link bait reporting is that it detracts from what is really going on and it does not help anyone.

diberry




msg:4486135
 4:13 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

Leosghost, you've got the wrong picture (and btw, here's an entire thread on what happened to my site so you won't have to go hunting again: [webmasterworld.com...]

What I created were blog posts containing, say, lots of links to various DIY car repairs (not a real example). Each link got some helpful, original commentary from me. Readers constantly share these pages socially, which indicates to me they like them, and that's why I built them.

The SEO was mystified because, in his words, it was obvious to a reader that these posts were useful and not spammy, and he found it surprising if the algo had failed to detect the difference (I agree with that). After all, many blogs do this, and not all were Penguinized. I'm still not convinced this is the answer.

Another theory was that I did nothing wrong, but some of my inbounds were affected directly or indirectly by Penguin, and that caused me to be affected indirectly.

Anyway, the relevant point is, I haven't got much to lose, so bring that update on. My site's doing just fine with social - people love those "resource" posts, and they're promoting them fine, so if I lose all my Google traffic, I'll still be okay. But maybe just maybe an update will fix some of these problems. Either way, I covered myself by not relying on Google.

fred9989




msg:4486141
 5:05 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

Actually Google engineers hate SEO's. I've spoken to a few that said as much, off the record of course.


I tend to think this is right - judging by Matt Cutts comments at SES about there being a faction in Google who were supporting webmasters, he being one of them: the implication for me is that a majority of google search staff are not supporting, explicitly or implicitly, or even in favour of, webmasters' interests.

Leosghost




msg:4486145
 6:03 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

the implication for me is that a majority of google search staff are not supporting, explicitly or implicitly, or even in favour of, webmasters' interests.

Why would they be ?

Imagine G is like a singles night club..single people only want to go there if there are a lot of other single people there..

So ..in the early part of the evening the guys on the door let singles who can't afford to pay, in for free,and maybe lets them have a few free drinks ( some places let girls in for free, while guys pay - some dating sites work the same way - )..so it gets busy looking , and the latecomers pay to be a part of the partying crowd..

The bosses show up at around 02.00 am, sees the place has a lot of what look to some of them to be freeloaders, who didn't pay to get in, and aren't buying drinks..

Some of the bosses know it had to begin that way, to get a reputation to be the "in place", and the paying crowd might go somewhere else if some didn't get in for free early, so they are cool..

Some of the bosses say "we have the reputation now, both the girls and the guys should pay to get in every time, no matter what the time, and no free drinks"..

Whether you get in, depends on which bosses are near the door, and telling the guys on the door what to do..

Until there is another "in place to be" nightclub, things will stay as they are, some nights you are in ( for free ) and near the front, some nights, being near the front means you got to pay, those who don't get to stand at the back..unless they look really really really special, or are friends of the bosses..

Dess




msg:4486147
 6:30 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

SEO is the only type of traffic I ever succeeded making money with and I became fed up because my site has been hit number of times even if I started from scratch. What do we do now?

klark0




msg:4486148
 7:16 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

So what could these "other signals" be ? Almost certainly, they've incorporated excessive anchor text in the first two versions.

I'm thinking they might look at your ratio of nofollow/dofollow links as normal websites don't have more than 5-10% nofollow, while aggressive SEOs tend to have 10%+.

Maybe they'll single out links from popular sources of manipulative links - ie. article directories, web2s, etc. ?

thoughts ?

tedster




msg:4486163
 8:04 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

How about signs that the webmaster is closely monitoring their rankings and making regular changes based on the ranking changes they see? This seems to be the focus of a newly granted Google patent - [webmasterworld.com...]

seoskunk




msg:4486187
 10:13 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

What do we do now?


As Leosghost said either you find another nightclub...... or make friends with the bosses

Leosghost




msg:4486192
 10:38 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

Or..make yourself , really, really , really special..
and not everyone can be really, really, really, special , because "special" is a relative term..like "win" etc..

And it may not be "PC" to say it out loud, ( but it is very logical, and true ) but not everyone can win "the race", not everyone can be "special"..and in "serp terms" that is why SEO was born ..and SEO services, and SEO consultants, and SEO teachers/gurus..or adwords ;)

And G would rather you use adwords,( which is their preferred way to make friends with their bosses ) to get on page 1, than SEO..they don't get paid, when you use SEO..

SevenCubed




msg:4486194
 10:46 pm on Aug 18, 2012 (gmt 0)

Nice analogy Leosghost, often times I can better process other peoples thought patterns when they paint pictures like that one :)

or make friends with the bosses


If market share of the Chrome browser is accurate, that is probably the minion to go through to get to the boss. Forget about SEO just hope you are in a segment of users that favour Chrome as their default browser. Or, start a business where you sell Chrome visits to websites by the board lot for $38.

diberry




msg:4486268
 2:49 pm on Aug 19, 2012 (gmt 0)

Leosghost, I like your nightclub analogy.

I'm thinking they might look at your ratio of nofollow/dofollow links as normal websites don't have more than 5-10% nofollow, while aggressive SEOs tend to have 10%+.


CMSs like Wordpress would be in trouble, then, since Wordpress made the comment links no-follow years ago to make Google happy.

How about signs that the webmaster is closely monitoring their rankings and making regular changes based on the ranking changes they see? This seems to be the focus of a newly granted Google patent


THAT has been my tin foil hat theory for years. And the question of what we need to do is pretty simple: focus completely on your other traffic sources, and think of new ones often. Assume your Google traffic will disappear someday, and build accordingly. Once your sites are making enough without Google to at least scrape by, then your Google traffic income is just a nice bonus.

Because even if Google never knocks your site down in rankings, someday Google search will not be as dominant as it is now. Could be decades away, but it's gotta happen eventually.

rango




msg:4486455
 11:38 am on Aug 20, 2012 (gmt 0)

"I'm thinking they might look at your ratio of nofollow/dofollow links as normal websites don't have more than 5-10% nofollow, while aggressive SEOs tend to have 10%+. "

Geez, I hope not. We have a pretty high ratio of no-follow links and only because we comment fairly regularly on blogs and so forth just as a way to build awareness. With the understanding that Google didn't follow those links in the first place, it's none of their damn business to now start penalizing for having them!

n00b1




msg:4486457
 11:47 am on Aug 20, 2012 (gmt 0)

Yeah... Seems they don't like my large proportion of nofollows from Wikipedia scrapers. Because obviously that's me being malicious as a webmaster. And yeah raising awareness seems perfectly legitimate to me - it's getting ridiculous.

tedster




msg:4486512
 3:49 pm on Aug 20, 2012 (gmt 0)

In your main thread on this topic [webmasterworld.com], netmeg made the following comment which goes for me, too.

I dunno. I have a few and know of more sites with the same scenario - plenty of Wikipedia cites, entries in DMOZ, and thus heavily scraped, and none of them seem to be getting link notifications or being slapped (and I've asked) There must be a ginormous number of sites with the same circumstances. I just can't shake loose the thought that there's something else going on here.

Not that I'm a fan of Google's automated backlink policing - far from it. But the scenario being described here seems so silly that I think some caution is a good idea before settling on a conclusion.

coachm




msg:4486542
 5:24 pm on Aug 20, 2012 (gmt 0)

With the google serps where nothing makes sense anymore it makes sense that a large number of nofollows could be interpreted as votes of non-confidence. Only the ALGOO knows.

Brett_Tabke




msg:4486749
 12:21 pm on Aug 21, 2012 (gmt 0)

> For Penguin:- The updates are going the be jarring and julting for a while

There are some people with audio recordings of our session, and I will see if I can hunt them up or ask Matt for clarification. https://twitter.com/BruceClayInc/status/235769055385112577/photo/1

The above 'quote' is not what I heard. I heard, "They CAN BE jarring and jolting". It was a statement - not a prediction.

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