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This 436 message thread spans 15 pages: < < 436 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 > >     
New Panda Update - September 27
BrodyDodes




msg:4369315
 9:53 pm on Sep 30, 2011 (gmt 0)

Google rolled out its most recent iteration of the Panda algorithm on Wednesday 9/28/11 (or Tuesday according to who you ask). Saw the first recovery of one of my punished sites since the first iteration back in February. Anyone else see recoveries?


[webpronews.com...]

When asked if an iteration of Panda was implemented this week, a Google spokesperson told us, “yes.” She also provided the following statement:

“We’re continuing to iterate on our Panda algorithm as part of our commitment to returning high-quality sites to Google users. This most recent update is one of the roughly 500 changes we make to our ranking algorithms each year.”

If you’ve followed the Google Panda update saga throughout the year, you may recall Dani Horowitz’s story. She runs an IT discussion community called Daniweb, and it was hit hard by the Panda update, but she made a lot of changes, and gradually started to build back some Google cred

 

tedster




msg:4370412
 2:24 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

makes it so difficult to second guess

Yes, it does. I think the Panda is still a baby, and still learning. These results we're seeing are not the way it's going to look in the future. But what we do see right now, when some features are at their most exaggerated, may be our best chance to see just a bit of how the mechanics of this beast work... if that's ever going to be a possibility at all.

Google put more than a year into Panda's development before the first roll-out, employing lots of smart minds and processing muscle of an almost unimaginable scale. It may just be impenetrable to our outside deconstruction, whether it's misfiring in an area or working exactly as planned. And it is one of the most audacious projects ever attempted for any algorithm.

It seems certain to me that there isn't going to be some easy answer. A while before Panda, Matt Cutts did mention that webmasters will need to chase their visitors rather than the Google algorithm.

realmaverick




msg:4370417
 2:53 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

I find the uncertainty most unsettling. I'll be happy once I'm rewarded for consistently having a higher quality site than the competition ;)

Whitey




msg:4370418
 3:05 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

I think consistancy might be a key to an early release starting from the foundations. Completely stripping a site and building it back with quality seems to be a surer way than trying to preserve what is a juggling act. But that's a very hard call to destroy or block almost an entire site that yields enough traffic to survive on minimised returns.

but you at least avoid negative points if you don't send a user back to Google to run the search again

My thoughts are that Google has prejudged pages which are poor quality, and simply sending folks to them is enough for Google to flag the referring page for demotion. I say that, because a user may hit a shopping site's sub page and engage, but Google may not want users engaging with those pages as they add no real value to the user experience - even if they end up purchasing. Google would prefer users going to pages it considers of higher quality as a precusor to engaging further it's own properties in time.

So the way I'm seeing it is, google wants to see a click through funnel that supports a quality user experience from top level right through the navigation heirarchy. I wonder if that could be folder specific - my hunch is that it could be.

kartiksh




msg:4370441
 4:58 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

10+ yrs old site, original content. No frequent updates in last few years. I have not made any changes after Feb panda 1.0 to today.
February Panda 1.0 – lost 50% traffic
March Panda 2.0 – further loss of traffic to almost 75% of total traffic in previous years.
June/July Panda X? – as is
September 26 Panda Y – although officially it is Sept 26, my site recovered from 75% traffic loss to now 25% over all starting Sept 19.
September 27 Panda Z? – no effect.

proboscis




msg:4370444
 5:05 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

A set of low quality pages can poison the rest of the site - there's a kind of decaying negative factor that spreads through the sites internal linking.


What if a site noindexes its affiliate content or other "low quality pages" but still links to them from every indexed page of the site. Could that be poisoning a site?

Shatner




msg:4370450
 5:26 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

10+ yrs old site, original content. No frequent updates in last few years.

This is your problem.

tedster




msg:4370452
 5:32 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

What if a site noindexes its affiliate content or other "low quality pages" but still links to them from every indexed page of the site. Could that be poisoning a site?

Well, in eight months of Panda I haven't seen even one reported recovery from the noindex approach alone. I suppose there's a chance if there's is some really knock-out great content on the other pages.

I don't think that affiliate content alone poisons a site in Panda - there are too many counter-examples to that idea. But if you mean just publishing whatever the affiliate program pushes out in their feed, that was already problematic even before Panda. It's what Google called "thin" content, whereas Panda is targeting what they called "shallow" content.

Zivush




msg:4370454
 5:34 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

@Whitey, Tedster
I have several articles websites - blogs.
I am asking: What are really those quality pages on a particular site?
The most popular articles - the highest traffic ones are not with the best BR,P/V because they also get noisy traffic (non-targeted).
Those with the lowest bounce rate, time/site, page/visit are sometimes pages with 1 visit a day..

Technically, I know how to drive organic traffic to any page, but I really don't know (methodically and non-subjectively) what are the best pages in any of my sites.
I can only guess what are the weakest parts on a site.

So, if any analytic metric isn't accurate, how Google knows to decipher the best from the all?

Lenny2




msg:4370460
 5:56 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

@Whitey,

You are correct, I have not no-indexed our poorest performing/highest bounce rate pages... I think I'll try that next, let you know how it goes.

Lenn

tedster




msg:4370469
 6:20 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

So, if any analytic metric isn't accurate, how Google knows to decipher the best from the all?

That's the question we've all been asking since Febriuary. It's essentially the same question as "what does Panda measure", and we've got no solid answers.

micklearn




msg:4370475
 6:58 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

A while before Panda, Matt Cutts did mention that webmasters will need to chase their visitors rather than the Google algorithm.


I never fully understood what he meant by that...was it a warning?

Do we all need to add many social buttons to every page? Or did he mean something else, like, try to sign visitors up to a newsletter for future traffic since we (G) will be taking over a lot of vertical niches in the future?

Hissingsid




msg:4370497
 8:44 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

@Tedster That's the question we've all been asking since Febriuary. It's essentially the same question as "what does Panda measure", and we've got no solid answers.


Just thinking aloud.

Perhaps we should ask the question: If you were designing Panda what would you have it measure?

But first the question: Why?

For as long as I've been watching Google updates there has been a wall of silence and/or misinformation from Google on each change. They clearly were trying to stay one step ahead of us so that their changes were not in vain. "They" must have got increasingly frustrated as we, by sharing information, were ever more able to react and circumvent the changes that were essentially designed to try and stop webmasters from being able to change their web pages, back links etc in order to improve their rankings.

I think that "Why?" is to have a system that cannot be manipulated by webmasters and SEOs.

If that is the case then letting visitors be the judge of what is good and what is not is a really good thing to try and measure. If webmasters and SEOs do try to manipulate this then they can only do it by, in effect, making the site better for visitors. So Google is in a win/win situation. If Panda makes us change our sites to fit what Panda wants then we must improve our sites in terms of user experience. This makes Google engineers feel smug and all warm and contented inside.

Bearing in mind that Panda is only part of the algorithm and all of the other things that we have always done are still important, if I were designing Panda here are the things I would measure.

1. Bounce rate vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

2. % of new visits vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

3. Number of pages visited vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

4. Average time spent on the sites vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

5. The time spent and number of pages visited by a user before they disappear into a transactional area vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

6. Where users go to when following a link from your site and the 1 to 5 measure of that site.

The learning and iterations that Panda is going through could be changing the mix of these six things and the balance between specific search terms and broad topic. Or perhaps they started measuring 1. to 5. and then added 6.

As I say just thinking aloud.

Dave_Hybrid




msg:4370503
 9:03 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

I think you said that perfectly HS.

Make sites for users not Google, they've been saying this for eternity.

I admit, i was a bit half and half, my site was ok but it was designed to bring an income firstly.

I've now reversed that, ads are gone and it's making nothing, but everyone including me like spending much more time there.

It is amazing that when thinking of money first how that influences your site design.

It's not simply about removing ads, its about making new design and function changes that are not based on revenue or reverting the design and function changes that were based on revenue.

Forget the money, get a day job if need be and allow your site to be free from that influence and im pretty sure it will flourish.

Hopefully, in the long run as the site popularity improves i can work out a way to monetize that keeps everyone happy.

In the meantime its online for the users, and all i want is to see it grow, not line my pockets.

I think SEO has changed, it is no longer about finding little tricks and loop holes that get you a traffic boost and are within guidelines, so stop thinking like that.

People are still looking for the easy fix, the one thing that puts it in a box. Do this and you dont get hit by Panda...

That ship has sailed, it's about pleasing users, it's time to let go of keyword optimized titles/meta/links - ratios of any kind, keyword density's, footer links, onsite sitemaps bla bla bla.

Make an excellent site, better than your competition, for the people, and they will come, and stay. Stickyness is what G is looking for.

nomis5




msg:4370513
 9:54 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

That's an excellent post by Hissingsid and well worth pursuing.

Rather than wanting to make the web better in general, I think Google really wants only to be able to select the best sites (from a user perspective) for their SERPS. They still need rubbish sites on the web because if all web pages were good then all search engines would have good SERPS.

In essence they want their SERPS to be the best and the other SERPS mediocre or bad for users.

Agreed, whatever criteria Google are using they are changing it constantly to stop SEO people from understanding the system. They are doing this on purpose and it's working a treat.

Another criteria they might be using is how often a brand/site name is used when users enter a search. E.G. if users frequently enter "buy widgets Amazon" then Google judge that Amazon is a good website for widgets. This would go some way to explaining why big brands appear to be doing well post Panda.

Martin Ice Web




msg:4370526
 11:35 am on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Hissingsid

your measurements have a small error.
All of your measurments implify that google serves the most relevant serps. That meens there have been no tweeks to do, like panda iteration. If google does not serve the best serps, google can´t measure anything. We all know that there are short periods where bounce rate is very little and conversions are very good. But then google tweeks around an bounce rate/conversions are very bad.

I think we are all on a wrong way. Why should google send 400.000 users to a forum before panda and then cut to half? That would only make sence if google ould change their mind about what is good and not. But this forums gained that amount of visitors through google because poeple liked the forum and linked to it. Question is now, didn´t google served the best serps until panda? This does not match to the poor quality/bounce rate etc. measurements.

I think it is googles internal - stand alone - war against scrappers and linkfarms. We just suffer from it and there is alomst no chance for google to win it.
Do not change your sites, cause this will look like google gaming ( this is what scrappers will do ).


Forget about the users will change to bing/yahoo. Google is miles ahead, by giving the users some extra information ( local results, google maps and and and ). I like google mutch, although it servs realy bad results and does not send me the visitors I´d like to have.

Andylew




msg:4370540
 12:18 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Just to add something in the mix which contradicts a lot of people saying they have removed ads in case they were causing panda problems. We added adsense, although I have been against it for years as ive always seen it as non user friendly, and saw an improvement in serps within a week - coincidence?!

People have said it in the past google is about making money. Perhaps panda is actually a content/adsense ratio or measurement between content and adsense looking for a score on quality content to please the user but ultimately convert the user to an adsense click instead of a backwards click. Panda could be an algo looking to monetise every click whilst maintaining searcher satisfaction - the have enough data to acheive this.

Consider two identical sites both with the same content etc but one displays adsense. Google knows which one makes them money and has data on the conversion rate so which one would it put first.....

It is changing the game, the sites which generate it the most money for them come first, they have monetised the organic listings.

jinxed




msg:4370542
 12:30 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

I think talk about ads as a primary rankings factor of your Panda score is a complete waste of time.

A secondary factor, yes. I.e a page plastered with ads *could* put off visitors, which *could* increase bounce rates and other user metrics.

That's why talking specifics is a waste of time. User metrics are probably measured at each keyword/phrase level - and each keyword may result in users favouring different things.

This is a completely dynamic and changing game, in my opinion. Also meaning that what is relevant today might not be tomorrow.

That's my opinion, anyway.

HuskyPup




msg:4370547
 12:37 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Consider two identical sites both with the same content etc but one displays adsense. Google knows which one makes them money and has data on the conversion rate so which one would it put first.....


Absolutely no way. I have the de facto sites for my widgets yet my AdSense over night was slashed to 45%...unless, of course, Google's pocketing the difference?

Andylew




msg:4370556
 1:02 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Absolutely no way. I have the de facto sites for my widgets yet my AdSense over night was slashed to 45%...unless, of course, Google's pocketing the difference?


Exactly my thoughts, perhaps another site which is not as good but is 'good enough' but making more money for them will appear above yours. ie:

Site 1: great content (score 5), low money making (score 1) = 6
Site 2: good content (score 4), average money making (score 3) = 7

A simplistic view but an easy way to see that if panda is a money making algo then quality could become second to money making.

A further thought which i dont think anyone has picked up on but I would question is why it isnt real-time, what statistic is being gathered that needs to be batch processed - ie is time is an important factor in the equation, if so this points 100% to user metrics (including adsense engagement) as this wouldn’t be statistically significant if done in real-time.

Errioxa




msg:4370567
 1:23 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)


1. Bounce rate vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

2. % of new visits vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

3. Number of pages visited vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.

4. Average time spent on the sites vs other sites that rank for a search term and broad topic area.



Analytics data is easy hack it with javascript

1-Ok, but only if the user return to Google serps

3-I don't think it, you can use a iframe where you execute _trackPageview (x2 pages visited)


I think that if the user doesn't back to Google in a few seconds you could distort them as you please, there are several different ways to do it.

HuskyPup




msg:4370568
 1:35 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Exactly my thoughts, perhaps another site which is not as good but is 'good enough' but making more money for them will appear above yours.


This may surprise you however almost all the other first page results's sites do not carry AdSense, most are Alibaba type sites, however there is one widget site that has appeared in the results for nearly as long as mine that does carry AdSense. I would be amazed if it has taken up all the difference.

driller41




msg:4370579
 2:27 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Is the Sep 27th date the same for Panda in the UK?

Matrix




msg:4370580
 2:34 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Hi everyone !

I am new to this forum but been a webmaster for 4 years now.

i also lost 50% or moor of my traffic in the first penda, going from 5000 visit a day to about 1000....

my main site when from around $120 a day to about $15 on adsence revenue....

my site is a community cam chat rooms.

it is very frustrating to see competitions not been penalize when my site fall, i have unique content....

is there someone that can help me figure out if i can fix other stuff to help me back on ?


obviously all of use have invested a lots of time and money to get are site to rank.

Google even send me message on adsence to put moot ads on specific area so i don't think ads is a factor.


yes my bounce rate have clime up over 63% now and time on site have drop, but all this is normal if you lose traffic less members on sites so new one don't stay long.

[edited by: tedster at 12:00 am (utc) on Oct 5, 2011]

rlange




msg:4370610
 4:11 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

affiliation wrote:
Another demotion was a site that I had included in Twitter, minimal followers, so what I would take out of that is if you put a social aspect to your site and get little followers, G perhaps think site is not popular.

The same for +1 etc, not enough +1's and your site in G's eyes may be unpopular. Best bet is not to go down the +1 or social route, at least it's not letting G see how popular or unpopular you are

I doubt it. I just can't see how any number of followers can be given a negative value.

How is a site associated with a Twitter account that only has 10 followers worse than a site that isn't associated with any Twitter account at all? There has to be a baseline, and that baseline would be zero. It would then be reasonable to assume that the site not associated with a Twitter account has effectively zero Twitter followers. Obviously, even 10 is better than zero.

If Google is weighing social media heavier than before (or at all), it's more likely that 10 followers just doesn't get you as many "points" as 100 followers. So, while the result may appear to be a demotion, it may be that other, more "popular" sites were simply promoted ahead of your own.

Obviously that's overly simplistic. There are plenty of other factors involved. Heck, "number of Twitter followers" may not even be one of them.

The sites I have that maintained or improved their positions are sites that I have did none of the above, but sites that I have delved in the above have all been demoted.

Unless these sites are nearly identical in every other way, I think it's a stretch to pin a loss of traffic on having few Twitter followers.

--
Ryan

Whitey




msg:4370759
 9:24 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Are you a false positive to ?

Google Panda Update: DaniWeb Recovers AGAIN - More Panda tweaking? Google Correcting Mistakes?
“The Google saga continues. We have just recovered. Google Analytics is very delayed, but it is already reporting that we have received as much traffic today as we received all day yesterday, and it is not even 2 pm yet,” she tells us. “Clearly Google admitted they screwed up with us.” [webpronews.com...]

I doubt if others with collateral damage that slipped under the radar would have received the same attention as Dani.

Amit Singhal, previously said:

“Any time a good site gets a lower ranking or falsely gets caught by our algorithm — and that does happen once in a while even though all of our testing shows this change was very accurate — we make a note of it and go back the next day to work harder to bring it closer to 100 percent…That’s exactly what we are going to do, and our engineers are working as we speak building a new layer on top of this algorithm to make it even more accurate than it is

Many commentators are saying Dani's site should not have been dropped , but I'm not sure if the G team is picking up all false positives. Rather it may be listening to individual well publicised cases.

Do you know anyone who has come back from a false positive Panda drop, per Amit Singhal's comment that is not well known?

[edited by: Whitey at 10:20 pm (utc) on Oct 4, 2011]

dataguy




msg:4370762
 9:42 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Great find, @Whitey. Can't believe how cocky Google is these days:

Let’s refer back to a quote from a Wired interview with Google’s Amit Singhal, who said, “Any time a good site gets a lower ranking or falsely gets caught by our algorithm — and that does happen once in a while even though all of our testing shows this change was very accurate — we make a note of it and go back the next day to work harder to bring it closer to 100 percent…That’s exactly what we are going to do, and our engineers are working as we speak building a new layer on top of this algorithm to make it even more accurate than it is.”

"and that does happen once in a while"

Ha!

LostOne




msg:4370774
 10:04 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

I've been trying to understand a way out of my Pandalization since February while just lurking. But when reports surface of what almost seems like a manual intervention it really hurts. Nope, I'm not well known, nor am I a pretty 30 year old (lot's of attention) something that some feel compassionate about. What's worse is I'm not in a geeky industry that Google folks are drawn to and understand.

johnhh




msg:4370776
 10:10 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Nope , they forgot to push out the white list again in the latest update. I guessed dani woud be back quickly.
At the current time I don't think even Google understands whats going on, or how many long standing websites have been destroyed traffic wise.

Panda is basically out of control - I still expect a roll back, or "improvement"

pretty 30 year old if your not I won't be phoning you !

LostOne




msg:4370777
 10:21 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

I still expect a roll back, or "improvement"

Same thing here John, but any admission is likely to cause loss of confidence in the company. I used to look forward at looking at website stats every morning. Now I dread looking at the losses. They have me hand cuffed as I have no idea what direction to go. I'll stay put because I have some faith it will get smoothed out...eventually.

Dave_Hybrid




msg:4370792
 10:47 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

I give up, i cant play with this moving target.

I come here daily re Panda and we've played out so many possible reasons, in desperation i've run with some of the stuff and butchered my site in hope.

Then you hear of sites like daniweb, getting whitelisted. Im in that same niche, a competitor, so it rubs me even more, why do they get special treatment!? Google clearly doesnt know what its doing.

It's a waste of time and energy, the rest of us have no hope. All we can do is sit and wait for our sentence, until then were all fricking guilty and in the hole.

I'm eating into my savings, ill be back in regular work in 6 months, 6 years down the drain. Its totally ripped my home apart and i have no respect left for Google.

This is bigger than us and not in our control. It's a horrible feeling.

Gutted.

Dave_Hybrid




msg:4370805
 11:23 pm on Oct 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

It gets worse, you know things are botched when a random myspace page pushes you out of 1st place for you exact match domain/brand name. I've been there 6 years and not one other site on the web uses the phrase in their domain. wow Google.

[edited by: Dave_Hybrid at 11:35 pm (utc) on Oct 4, 2011]

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