homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.211.73.232
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Pubcon Platinum Sponsor 2014
Home / Forums Index / Google / Google SEO News and Discussion
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: Robert Charlton & aakk9999 & brotherhood of lan & goodroi

Google SEO News and Discussion Forum

This 43 message thread spans 2 pages: 43 ( [1] 2 > >     
Will Google Drop PageRank when Patent Exclusivity Runs Out?
internetheaven

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 8:51 pm on Jan 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

Apparently Google's pagerank exclusivity-usage-patent-thingy is running out this year.

They've removed Pagerank from the WMT area. Updates are few and far between. Is there a chance they'll get rid of it completely in favour of other ranking indications like social patterns? Could they just remove the green bar?

Personally, it's 99% of the reasons I use the Google Toolbar. I still use the green bar as a quick indicator of the site I'm on. It's been handy.

If it goes, surely I won't be the only one to delete my Google Toolbar - is the toolbar still an important source of data for Google though?

 

tedster

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tedster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 9:28 pm on Jan 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

Is the toolbar still an important data source for Google? Oh yes. For starters, there's the Site Speed data that you see reported in Webmaster Tools and which has been folded into the ranking algo as a (minor for now) factor.

<fixed spelling>]

[edited by: tedster at 5:18 pm (utc) on Jan 8, 2011]

Swanny007

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 10:18 pm on Jan 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

You do realize the green bar is not necessarily a reflection of what the actual PR is right? So it's at best a suggestion of the page's PR...

Site speed and other things are likely more important than PageRank for 2011.

Anywho, I for one would be happy if they'd drop PageRank altogether.

internetheaven

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 11:33 pm on Jan 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

You do realize the green bar is not necessarily a reflection of what the actual PR is right?


Ummm ... yes, that is something I'm aware of. If there is anyone in this forum that is not aware of that, then they probably only started SEO 30 minutes ago ... which I did not ...

To clarify my question -- as swanny007 seems to have gotten an impression of an alternation question which is already being asked in dozens of threads (i.e. about what is used for ranking) --

I was trying to ask whether Google dropping the whole green bar thing could have unwanted side effects?

Despite Google's well-intentioned and completely accurate public down-plays of that little Green Bar and despite the overwhelming hold it had on the SEO community at one time ... should it ever really be gotten rid of? I say "no".

If Pagerank had 0% to do with ranking at all, I would still be interested in seeing the number on the sites/pages I visited. It may be an inaccurate reference ... but considering how skewed actual user written review sites can be ... the green bar is not really that bad in indicator. ;)

goodroi

WebmasterWorld Administrator goodroi us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 11:51 pm on Jan 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

dropping pagerank would likely decrease the amount of google toolbar usage and the data google collects from it.

many ignorant marketing managers and newbie seo people like pagerank since its an easy signal for them to see. they are happy in their oversimplified ignorant world and like pagerank to reassure them. without pagerank the ignorant webmasters would seek out a new signal. while they do this they may educate themselves and become better equipped to manipulate google rankings. that aint good for google.

veteran seo people also know that pagerank is not worthless. as a veteran i want my site to have pagerank to make it easier for me when i deal with link exchanges.

i see no reason for google to drop pagerank. if they drop it, they will likely cause more headaches then the current pagerank situation.

will they continue to devalue its influence on the algo and add even more new factors to their algo is another question.

jekko



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 5:16 am on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

veteran seo people also know that pagerank is not worthless. as a veteran i want my site to have pagerank to make it easier for me when i deal with link exchanges.


Could a veteran SEOer tell me how does looking at an out of date green bar make it easier to deal with link exchanges. the information (in the tool bar) is nearly a year old, is it not?

In my opinion (not an SEO veteran) google should drop this out dated metric from the tool bar if they want to use it internally that's up to them.

its only use is to aid the selling of links but i guess G will keep digging that big hole

mrguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 5:19 am on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

Dropping the Green bar would actually stop a lot of the link selling that they so hate.

That green bar sets the price of the links so why not just remove it. I would bet the great majority of people don't even look at it and the only people who would even notice it missing are PR chasers and link sellers.

internetheaven

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 9:42 am on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

many ignorant marketing managers and newbie seo people like pagerank since its an easy signal for them to see ...


I'm assuming that the constant repetitions of the word "ignorant" in that paragraph were directed at webmasters that fixate on Pagerank instead of rankings? Or do you think anyone that pays attention to the green bar for any reason is "ignorant"?

jekko & mrguy: you're forgetting that even if google drops the green bar from their toolbar, the fact the patent is dying will simply mean that another company (Alexa?) will create a pagerank tool which link sellers/buyers/exchangers will use.

The green bar is not hard to calculate for any company that wants their toolbar on people's desktops. Either google keeps a hold of that or they don't.

doc_z

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 10:00 am on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

You can clearly see that currently Google is still using the real PageRank for the ranking.

I'm sure that they have alternative ranking algorithms without using PageRank data. But the answer to the original question is yes, removing PageRank completely will have effects. (Even if the impact decreased the last years.) And the effect for ranking will be more important than that for removing data from the toolbar.

Anyhow, I believe that Google and the Stanfort University will find an agreement. As long as there isn't any agreement Google won't spend time in PageRank, i.e. update the toolbar data.

jekko



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 10:12 am on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

@ internetheaven
i don't care what other companies are going to do, like you say they will do it anyway, as soon as google looses their exclusive rights. i am saying that pr is a metric which is used to sell links. google asks us not to participate! does it not punish webmasters that it thinks are buying/selling links? why do they show this metric if they know it is used for the buying and selling these links.

@ Google
sorry but if you going to Sh@t on your own doorstep you have to be careful where you tread.

my main point was why is a veteran seoer telling us that he uses the green bar when considering link exchanges, especially when this information is so out dated. would it not be better to look at other signals, traffic maybe.

if you like it link to it, if not don't! its not rocket science

TheMadScientist

WebmasterWorld Senior Member themadscientist us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 10:32 am on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

I think they should totally confuse everyone by reversing it and turning it red...
1 = Top : 10 = Bottom : Make it red and watch heads spin...

It would have people complaining and speculating about why they did it so no one would have time to buy or sell links.

indyank

WebmasterWorld Senior Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 4:03 pm on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

i am saying that pr is a metric which is used to sell links


I haven't seen any website that says "We sell links here". AFAIK it is the link buyers who approach websites and many of the buyers approach them based on their PR...So, are you worried that people aren't able to buy links cheaper as the sellers demand more money showing of their PR? :)

mrguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 4:31 pm on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

I removed the Google toolbar a long time ago and don't look at a sites PR and haven't for a very long time.

Instead, if I think the link is a benefit to my visitors, I go ahead and link to them because after all I built the site for them and not Google.

tedster

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tedster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 5:23 pm on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

I do look at TBPR when considering links - in either direction. But it's only one factor out of many. For example, if a domain has been live for a year and their home page shows a gray bar, that might indicate they've been up to something manipulative.

Even a white bar can be fine with me, if the topic of the site is on-theme and the content shows quality.

mrguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 6:30 pm on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

I don't use the Toolbar because I don't like Google spying on me. I also block Google from placing cookies in my browser.

If Google want's to collect data from my activities, they can pay me.

tedster

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tedster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 7:06 pm on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

I understand that point of view, mrguy. I don't use a Google toolbar to check PR. I use a bookmarklet to retrieve just the PR value of a URL, only when I want it.

mrguy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 8:16 pm on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

"bookmarklet" ?

I must live under a rock, I've never heard of that. Those will retrieve PR without the toolbar installed?

tedster

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tedster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 8:53 pm on Jan 8, 2011 (gmt 0)

A bookmarklet is a (usually short) javascript that you can drag to your browser toolbar and it is then available to execute its function with just one click. I have a collection of about 16 that I use regularly.

The PageRank bookmarklet I use is available here: <removed> and there are many other versions out on the interwebs.

<added>
Whoops! Shows you how long it's been since I checked PR - that particular bookmarklet now seems to malfunction. Sorry for any problems that caused.

tangor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tangor us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 7:52 am on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

Gaggle (sic) created it. Google (sic) will let it die. PR has become PITA and the sooner it dies the better it is... particularly when all the SE wannabes POUNCE on it.

God-dle (sic): "It was an interesting first step into human search on the Internet. We threw Sagan's "billions and billions" into it and found it didn't work. Our present (RYM) is the best (TM/PT)

I won't be a bit surprised to find "read your mind" has been patented.

Do I need to apply a smile? :)

goodroi

WebmasterWorld Administrator goodroi us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 12:06 pm on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

Could a veteran SEOer tell me how does looking at an out of date green bar make it easier to deal with link exchanges. the information (in the tool bar) is nearly a year old, is it not?


some webmasters do not fully understand that toolbar pagerank is not 100% accurate. if you have a new website and it is not showing tbpr just yet some webmasters will refuse to exchange links with you regardless of how relevant your website is or how much traffic your have.

even if you have tbpr showing, some webmasters who overvalue tbpr will refuse to link their pr5 page to your pr4 page despite your pr4 page ranking #1 and their pr5 page ranking #50. in this case it is helpful to have high tbpr when negotiating with webmasters who don't fully understand toolbar pagerank.

goodroi

WebmasterWorld Administrator goodroi us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 12:17 pm on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

@internetheaven
you raise a good question. my use of the word ignorant was referring to some webmasters who lack knowledge of toolbar pagerank. they have not researched tbpr and do not understand the complexities of it. we know that toolbar pagerank is not updated every night but not all webmasters know that.

almighty monkey

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 12:49 pm on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

This isn't about the Toolbar PR. Toolbar PR, as others have noticed, is deliberately out of date and I think Google regrets ever putting it in in the first place.

Nothing will actually change. We know what PR is - it's there in the patent in the first place. Bing, et all, have their own versions. It's still part of the algorithm. Its not the entire algorithm. Not even close.

All this expired patent means is that, if I wanted to, I could start an exact copy of Google as it appeared 12 years ago legally. This proposition would also require me to a) have a lot of money and b) to hate it. Oh and C) be mental.

Brett_Tabke

WebmasterWorld Administrator brett_tabke us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 1:46 pm on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

> Apparently Google's pagerank exclusivity-usage-patent-thingy
> is running out this year.

Do you have any main stream references for this?

Shaddows

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 4:05 pm on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

A quick search throws up:
[seroundtable.com...]

And following that to source: (GOOG 10-K filed Feb 13, 2009)
[wikinvest.com...]

Para 3 on that specific except page:
The first version of the PageRank technology was created while Larry and Sergey attended Stanford University, which owns a patent to PageRank. The PageRank patent expires in 2017. We hold a perpetual license to this patent. In October 2003, we extended our exclusivity period to this patent through 2011, at which point our license will become non-exclusive.
Emphasis mine

Shaddows

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 4:14 pm on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

Better ref:
[investor.google.com...]

Top Para on page 15

Jonny6



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 7:47 pm on Jan 10, 2011 (gmt 0)

As already said above, it doesnt run out at all, the exclusivity to it has. Having said that, the actual pagerank algo has changed considerably since.

When considering linking to a site; the toolbar pagerank is a useless metric of Google's determination of the quality of that site.

A site categorized as bad can still show a very healthy toolbar PR for quite some time.

The toolbar pagerank for low quality sites are not updated as quick as better quality sites, so consider that many sites havnt had a toolbar update since April 2010 and that update was based on the actual pagerank from months before, so its not rocket science to realise that the pagerank reported could be a year out of date.

aakk9999

WebmasterWorld Administrator 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 3:45 am on Jan 11, 2011 (gmt 0)

The toolbar pagerank for low quality sites are not updated as quick as better quality sites

@Jonny6: I saw you mentioned the above statement also on a two other threads: [webmasterworld.com ] and [webmasterworld.com ]

You seem very definite about this - could you quote any source of this information?

internetheaven

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 10:06 am on Jan 11, 2011 (gmt 0)

aakk999, I think jonny6 may have seen something and created an answer. i.e. if you see a PR5 site jump to PR6 but your PR1 site stays at PR1 - you can make an assumption that the toolbar pagerank for higher quality sites is updated quicker than low quality sites. This is, of course, not true.

It could mean that the higher quality site was at PR 5.999999 and moved up to 6.000001 during an update whilst the "lower quality site" (I'm using his words for this example, not mine) might have had a PR 1.0053 and moved up to PR 1.99999

Due to the vast array of decimal places between numbers 1 and 10 - many sites may seem to stagnate whilst others increase. As far as I'm aware, there are no mini-toolbar-updates for "higher quality sites".

FranticFish

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 12:19 pm on Jan 11, 2011 (gmt 0)

PR is as useful / useless a metric as any others - the devil is in the detail. It's a signal, it's not the only signal, it's out of date / wrong yadda yadda - BUT it can still be a useful signal. I no longer have toolbar on my primary browser but I keep it on a secondary browser to look up if I want to.

BeeDeeDubbleU

WebmasterWorld Senior Member beedeedubbleu us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4250466 posted 12:32 pm on Jan 11, 2011 (gmt 0)

TED: I do look at TBPR when considering links - in either direction.

Then according to goodroi you are ignorant. ;)

(What was all that about?)

This 43 message thread spans 2 pages: 43 ( [1] 2 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google SEO News and Discussion
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved