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Finally #2 in Google but can't be seen above the fold?
internetheaven




msg:4025048
 9:48 pm on Nov 14, 2009 (gmt 0)

I finally get my #2 ranking ... best I could hope for in such a tough industry with the No.1 position having started in 1999 (I was 2008) and having more than triple the number of backlinks I have.

But imagine my surprise when doing my ranking checks I see that I'm still under the fold when searching for that phrase!?

There are 3 paid results, the first paid result has 4 "sitelinks". (That's a new one on me for a start!). Then, the number 1 spot has it's place PLUS 3 indents!

I have a toolbar on my Firefox browser (who doesn't?) so my result ... at #2, I'd just like to repeat that ... does not appear on the page.

Are there any metrics in place to tell me just how much traffic this is going to cost me vs having a #2 spot a year ago? I'd like to add insult to injury ... :(

 

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4030794
 12:05 pm on Nov 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

Interesting suggestion but Google would probably just buy them out. ;)

Hissingsid




msg:4030805
 12:17 pm on Nov 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

And ... if they didn't the plugin co would start to offer the opportunity to buy the ad slots vacated by their software. :-)

Perhaps Microsoft could build in this behaviour into their next browser.

Cheers

Sid

PS Interestingly there's virtually no HTML text in a Google SERP. Just take a look at the source code it is all scripts. Virtually none of what you see on page is in the HTML document. It looks like they got there before anyone else on this one. Bing looks like it would be much easier to scrape.

Hissingsid




msg:4030813
 12:54 pm on Nov 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

BeeDeeDubbleU,

Immediately after saying it would be difficult I did a bit of searching and found that there is a Firefox plugin called AdblockPlus that not only blocks Adwords and Bing ads but also Adsense, banners, OMG etc etc.

Cheers

Sid

internetheaven




msg:4031197
 10:47 pm on Nov 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

AdblockPlus

That's fantastic! I can see the results again ...

... of course, if everyone started using this Google would eventually just block them as users rather than actually change their methods.

Fingers crossed for you Bing. Google have opened the door to let you do what they did 10 years ago ... ish ...

steve40




msg:4035828
 1:10 am on Dec 3, 2009 (gmt 0)

Interesting search today

Google Home Page gives me option to search
"New! Discover music using Google"

Which takes me to landing page

[google.com...]

Then if you choose an artist "I chose Bon Jovi"

takes you to google search with the first results are Google affiliate / partner sites

If this roles out for all kinds of other area's

E.G.
Flights, Holidays, DVD players etc. etc. not only will organic search and content sites be badly effected so will Adwords

Sorry about the link but just in case others are not presented with home page link

Steve

whitenight




msg:4035934
 4:34 am on Dec 3, 2009 (gmt 0)

Glad to see webmasters moving out of FEAR of Goog
to ANGER at Goog.

Pretty soon, WEBMASTERS as a whole will move into COURAGEOUSNESS

Fingers crossed for you Bing. Google have opened the door to let you do what they did 10 years ago ... ish ...

I've always stressed that WEBMASTERS created Goog. Not the other way around.

The sooner we, WEBMASTERS, realize this, the sooner we can "dictate" to GOOG how the internet works best, not the other way around

So get angry enough to do something about it. (Move from fear to anger to courage)

Bing!'s a nice temporary alternative, but ultimately, we'll realize WE as a collective force are the REAL internet.

No matter what ONE individual website claims or assumes.

idolw




msg:4035987
 7:31 am on Dec 3, 2009 (gmt 0)

Ahhh.... This reminds of the new spam-layout google is testing:

adwords
adwords
adwords

************ adwords

GOOGLE MAPS adwords

************ adwords

organic (err. some stuff taken from the web)

HAHA! This layout looks like a typical MFA site ;)

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4036006
 8:40 am on Dec 3, 2009 (gmt 0)

I've always stressed that WEBMASTERS created Goog. Not the other way around.

I commented earlier about Google's lack of concern for who they damage in their quest to organise the World's information (or to dominate the World - call it what you like). Webmasters very much come into that category and Google cares not a whit about what you think. You are not part of the equation because your business is basically about using Google without paying them. As such you are not part of their business model.

If Google can come up with a way to minimise public use of organic results in favour of paid results then they will do so. I would be extremely surprised if they were not working towards this right now. If they could do this today without losing public goodwill then they would. We tend to hang on every word that is uttered from the 'plex but make no mistake about it - we are not G's "friends".

Prepare for the worst or support the development of a funded, non-commercial, non-profit search engine that finds information based on what people are searching for as opposed to what makes the most money for its stockholders (a bit like what Google was ten years ago). Perhaps it's a Utopian vision that cannot be realised but I reserve the right to dream. ;)

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4036011
 8:43 am on Dec 3, 2009 (gmt 0)

Here's another example of Google's quest for domination ...
[webmasterworld.com...]

drall




msg:4048966
 4:43 pm on Dec 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

< moved from another location >

So I just ran a search for one of our more popular terms, usually we have been 1-3 in rankings. I checked it today because I noticed a large drop in traffic.

Result 1 - Google image thumbnails
Result 2 - Youtube with mega thumb
Result 3 - Youtube with mega thumb
Result 4 - Youtube with mega thumb
Result 5 - Google shopping with 3 trunked results pushing down more above the scroll real estate
Result 6 - Wikipedia
Result 7 - Our website

Basically even at 1920 by 1200 res the entire viewable set of results is all Google properties less Wikipedia.

So my question is how can a youtube video with a few hundred views and no backlinks outrank a pr 7 page with thousands of natural backlinks? Or my competitors pr 8 page with 30k backlinks?

None of this stuff is making any sense anymore.

[edited by: tedster at 6:22 pm (utc) on Dec. 24, 2009]

LostOne




msg:4049263
 2:01 pm on Dec 25, 2009 (gmt 0)

So...will long tail traffic ever get cannibalized by "finally #2 but can't be seen above the fold?" That's what concerns me after moving away from optimizing bigger traffic terms.

kidder




msg:4049440
 12:34 am on Dec 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

Google is not that different from the rest of us I expect, clearly they don't have the market share they did in days past so they are working harder to make more money from the traffic they do have. Users are changing the way they use the net all the time and I think Google is feeling it.

olly




msg:4049443
 12:41 am on Dec 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

We have a similar situation in the tourism industry, maps have been inserted across the board for all big traffic terms. Speculation is one thing, but I plan to investigate the drop in traffic after the seasonal effect of christmas has worn off. My instinct is that the majority of our traffic comes from long tail terms, and we do spend substantial amounts on adwords, so I'm not sure how badly these changes will affect us.

Needless to say that after perusing this extremely informative thread, the best things to come off with seem to be:

* Work on solid business principles rather than basing a business upon rankings. E.g. customer retention, A/B testing, etc. Blasting extra traffic to your site is one thing, but what do you do with the traffic / client? A decrease in traffic by 20%, for example, can be easily compensated for by a 20% increase in conversion rates. Sharpening advertising campaigns can make your adspend go further. Repeat clients are cheaper to acquire than new clients. All these strategies will contribute more to the success of a business.

* See organic traffic as a bonus rather than a mission critical necessity. There will always be the "free" search component (though this is a bit of an oxymoron given the resources necessary to rank well). At least we know that Google's primary goal of generating advertising revenue is there to stay and well maintained adwords campaigns can be a lasting, more dependable focus.

* Concentrate on utility rather than over speculating. Nobody has any control over Google's changes. The best we can do is accept them and keep focussing on other ways to grow or maintain our businesses.

skipfactor




msg:4049464
 2:34 am on Dec 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

>>Google is not that different from the rest of us.

They ARE us now. They are doing exactly what 90% of us would be doing if one of us owned google.com. Not saying I like it, but you have to admit they are better 'webmasters' now, probably thanks to at least a few former WW members on the payroll.

dailypress




msg:4063004
 6:55 pm on Jan 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

Are we not being a little greedy and hypocritical here?

Donít a lot of us put a 728*90px ad banner on the header section and try to monetize our sites most efficiently without losing our visitors loyalty?

And now weíre expecting Google to send free traffic to us without worrying about their own business? + Until they find real competition putting money in their investorís pockets will be top priority. And I guess putting more ads on their SERPís hasnít really damaged their visitorís loyalty, so why not?

It uses its own website to promote its own products,
Are they supposed to advertise elsewhere? Dont a lot of us promote our other sites on our own sites?

Firefox plugin called AdblockPlus that not only blocks Adwords and Bing ads but also Adsense, banners, OMG etc etc.
and how happy would you and all other webmasters who are trying to make a living off of ads be?

Result 1 - Google image thumbnails
Result 2 - Youtube with mega thumb
Result 3 - Youtube with mega thumb
Result 4 - Youtube with mega thumb
Result 5 - Google shopping with 3 trunked results pushing down more above the scroll real estate
Result 6 - Wikipedia
Result 7 - Our website
I must say I hate that. Unfortunately one of our strong terms for a small site also has the same layout reducing our traffic by a lot!

internetheaven




msg:4063430
 9:38 am on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

Donít a lot of us put a 728*90px ad banner on the header section and try to monetize our sites most efficiently without losing our visitors loyalty?

If I started a website that was ad-free and built from user-submitted content ... but then once I had enough loyal users suddenly added a 728x90 banner at the top of each page, a 120x600 banner down the right and also pushed all the user content down below the fold whilst placing links to my other related businesses above the fold ...

... then yes, I would expect my users to hate me and leave in droves.

BeeDeeDubbleU




msg:4063455
 10:39 am on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

... then yes, I would expect my users to hate me and leave in droves.

As would I - but the problem is that many people are not even aware that there is any alternative. They would not know where to go if they did leave.

Brainwashed? I think the public may now have been Googlewashed.

dailypress




msg:4063548
 2:48 pm on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

I think the public may now have been Googlewashed.
Its government owned, what do you expect ;)
sdexter




msg:4063690
 5:56 pm on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

Our own income must be our responsibility and we need to forget the idea of Google as the provider of milk and honey. And to the degree they do come through for us, be very wary of making business moves that depend on that free traffic in a mission critical way.

"Be wary of making business moves that depend on free traffic in a mission critical way..." ?

Tedster, you know this is crazy right? I'm not sure what you specifically had in mind when you made that statement, but it cannot have been:

Amazon, Kelkoo, RightMove, MoneySupermarket, Shopping.com, Indeed, Kayak, or any of the other thousands upon thousands of online business that all to a one depend on organic traffic in a mission critical way. Hell, so does WebmasterWorld for that matter.

With power...responsibility and all that. Why are you and so many other short-sighted commentators always so keen to let Google off the hook so easily?

dailypress




msg:4063695
 6:02 pm on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

Tedster, you know this is crazy right? I'm not sure what you specifically had in mind when you made that statement, but it cannot have been...etc
Why are you and so many other short-sighted commentators always so keen to let Google off the hook so easily?
Very friendly first post sdexter.
TheMadScientist




msg:4063702
 6:17 pm on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

Tedster, you know this is crazy right?

IMO Crazy is putting your future and livelihood in the hands, and at the mercy, of a business you have absolutely no control over... What's almost laughable is when people complain about losing said livelihood because the other business made a change and put them out of business and they lost their home and their car and everything else, because they think the business making the change 'owes' them somehow or is being irresponsible by running their business like a business, even if it's to the site owner's detriment.

It's no letting them off the hook, but rather realizing Google is a business and has a responsibility to it's shareholders, not you or your website, or even any of the sites you mentioned. Just because there are some who can make it doesn't mean it's responsible or advised for you to try... There are some who rock climb without the use of ropes... It doesn't mean you should do it or it's safe or advised in any way.

So my question is how can a youtube video with a few hundred views and no backlinks outrank a pr 7 page with thousands of natural backlinks? Or my competitors pr 8 page with 30k backlinks?

Uh, it keeps visitors on a Google owned property?

dailypress




msg:4063728
 6:53 pm on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

IMO Crazy is putting your future and livelihood in the hands, and at the mercy, of a business you have absolutely no control over...
It's no letting them off the hook, but rather realizing Google is a business and has a responsibility to it's shareholders, not you or your website, or even any of the sites you mentioned

Well said TheMadScientist.

I also came to this conclusion that you can make a living off the internet w/o Google.

A friend of mine a few years younger (21 years old at that time) started a popular video website where he would select and upload funny videos and that was it! It was no 2.0 website. No fancy domain name, no etremely well designed website. No powerful CMS. A simple website with good content.

He was generating over $20-25K/month with over 150K visitors/daily. It was him and his roommate doing this full time. At that time I didnt believe him, until I noticed on Alexa and Compete that he was drawing in crazy traffic. When I asked how? he said 90% of it is direct traffic and word of mouth. He then sold the website to a very popular funny video website especially that he was becoming concerned over copyright and legal issues.

[edited by: dailypress at 6:57 pm (utc) on Jan. 19, 2010]

TheMadScientist




msg:4063729
 6:53 pm on Jan 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

Think of making a living off Google's (or other SE) traffic this way:

You are their employee:
1.) You have no contract.
2.) You have no severance package.
3.) You have no benefits.
4.) You can be fired at any time, day or night.
5.) There's no one else hiring!

You depend on them, but they are not obligated to you in any way...

@DailyPress
Thanks!

I also came to this conclusion that you can make a living off the internet w/o Google.

Me too... It's the direction I've been moving lately. ;)

Whitey




msg:4089883
 10:51 am on Mar 2, 2010 (gmt 0)

< moved from another location >

It seems that G is doing all possible to push visitors away from text listings onto it's maps.

On one search i did in New York everything above the fold was either sponsored listings or maps for location related searches. And at the foot of the page , 2 listings on news. Beside the maps there were 7 direct link listings with phone numbers listed.

Something smells of a move towards handheld adoption strategies.

[edited by: tedster at 9:21 pm (utc) on Mar 2, 2010]

tedster




msg:4090257
 9:20 pm on Mar 2, 2010 (gmt 0)

It's a fact, Jack... er, Whitey.

However, it is also common to see these Maps, News, Image, Video etc results not "count" as one of the ten - that is, there are still 10 organic results.

piatkow




msg:4090744
 3:36 pm on Mar 3, 2010 (gmt 0)


You are not part of the equation because your business is basically about using Google without paying them.

Reminds me of the printed magazine that I run. The articles eat up valuable page estate that could be used for ads but without the articles I would have no sales and hence no ads. Its all a question of balance, and I think G are loosing that sense of balance.

internetheaven




msg:4096515
 5:55 pm on Mar 12, 2010 (gmt 0)

The articles eat up valuable page estate that could be used for ads but without the articles I would have no sales and hence no ads. Its all a question of balance, and I think G are loosing that sense of balance.


"Losing"? You don't think we are way, way past that point already then?

Organic results are now just "if we have no other Google products to show you".

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