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This 109 message thread spans 4 pages: < < 109 ( 1 [2] 3 4 > >     
Nobody talks about getting #1 now?
has the focus changed?
wanna_learn

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 6:46 pm on Feb 1, 2007 (gmt 0)

2 years back all the SEO forums were full of how to top the charts by playing fair SEO tricks and also by dirtly tricks. Looking at the hot topics being discussed in past few months its quite clear that focus has been changed to
1) How to defend site from being kicked outta Google
2) Other problems with sites like supplemental page, hijacking, dupelicate content etc etc.
3) Genearal disussion about quality of results

Have we lost the game to Google? Are we assuming that it has been almost impossible to be certan that YES I can take my site to top?

or the veterans know the secret but nobody shares?

 

lfgoal

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 2:10 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

"or the veterans know the secret but nobody shares?"

"BINGO!"

Lol. Seems to work well enough. As long as the directories forum is perpetually clogged with "Is yahoo worth submitting to" threads and the link development and google search forums are perpetually clogged with "have I been banned?" threads, you can pretty much count on zero "secrets" being dispensed.

There are no "secrets". There's only 1. Analyzing your niche, 2. Analyzing your competition, 3. Refusing to engage in link manipulation schemes 4. Working your butt off to build new content everyday that is original and has value to users, and 5. Working your butt off everyday to build new incoming links from websites whose links make sense.

It's as simple as that and as hard as that.

The beautiful thing about the google algos at this point in time is that they reward the type of site building and link building that require a great deal of hard work from a webmaster. And this, by definition, effectively leaves most of the schemers behind.

mfishy

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 2:52 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

The beautiful thing about the google algos at this point in time is that they reward the type of site building and link building that require a great deal of hard work from a webmaster. And this, by definition, effectively leaves most of the schemers behind.

Surely you aren't serious? The "schemers" are beating the absolute crap out of google right now

inwaaaytoodeep

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 3:21 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

Been doing SEO for nearly 10 years, very little has changed in Google or in any of the other search engines except for the number of pairs of eyes looking at the really important keywords. Whether it's the Search Providers looking at these to make sure that they are still raking it in on their PPC models, or Publishers looking to see if their competition can be booted for foul methods that's about the size of it. In terms of crafting a page for a position 1 or the like it is nothing different. If I put a site at position #1 and it does not follow the SE guidelines it will be dropped in a flash. Whereas 10 years ago it would probably sit there for months.

If I take 300 referrals for one keyword which is under constant scrutiny, or 3,000 referrals for 1,000 secondary keywords then maybe I'll just PPC for that one keyword and hit the secondaries. It's less risky.

Still playing the game. ;)

lfgoal

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 3:52 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

"Surely you aren't serious? The "schemers" are beating the absolute crap out of google right now "

Unfortunately, what we see largely revolves around our respective niches. Yes, I do see tons of schemers, but a schemer on page 2 or page 3 doesn't bug me that much.

jarboy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 4:00 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

Our team call these words 'Torso' words i.e.
3. the "Torso" is a solid variety of 2 or 3 word phrases.
But we are slightly prim genteel brits :)

1. the "head" is the #1 trophy word (only one winner here),
2. the "long tail" is all those highly targeted long search phrases (high conversion, but low traffic)
3. the "fat belly" is a solid variety of 2 or 3 word phrases

annej

WebmasterWorld Senior Member annej us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 4:29 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

Now its like "spamming" google, only with lots of unique content.

I've gone a slightly different route, I don't put out new pages that often but a lot goes into researching them and designing them. I also use keyword tools to be sure I am writing about topics people are searching for. The exception is that I also write some articles that are important to the topic as they will add to the quality of the site. It's been successful for me, not in the sense of bringing money in fast but in building solid site in my field.

fishfinger

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 7:28 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

I said in my previous post that it depended on your market, and it's very clear from many posts that people are talking about 'information' sites, rather than 'business service' sites. 95% of my clients are small-medium size companies.

Targeting terms by adding pages just doesn't work for many businesses. Sure you can have a news or articles section, but you can't split your services pages every time you want to target a different variation of a term, and there are many posts about the fact that having a page for every possible variation in the colour or size of whatever widgets you sell is only worth it if you want to pad out the Supplemental index.

You risk losing focus and impact (by giving too much choice) or become repetitive. Both are dangerous because they give a poor user experience.

junai3

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 8:14 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

Nothing is being kept secret. Everything you need to know to get to the top of the search engines has already been posted in this forum. Do some searches and some reading, you will find it.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 8:37 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

Our team call these words 'Torso' words i.e.
3. the "Torso" is a solid variety of 2 or 3 word phrases.
But we are slightly prim genteel brits :)

What do you call traffic spikes from keyphrases at the bottom of the torso? :-)

lfgoal

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 9:05 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

"Targeting terms by adding pages just doesn't work for many businesses."

Au contraire.

Every page you add becomes another opportunity to be found in a search engine by the title of the page that's been found. Every page you add is also another opportunity to provide internal links to other pages of your site with favorable anchor text.

And they don't have to be junk pages. For any topic you can imagine, there are limitless angles. For just automobiles, you could have a hundred different FAQ sections (one on shocks, one on fuel injection, one on headers, one on cams, one on....yadda yadda, ad infinitum). Each FAQ section could have dozens of pages. And each page would provide more opportunities to be found in a search engine and more opportunities to drive traffic back to your desired pages.

You have to think outside the box and be willing to work harder.

fishfinger

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 11:59 pm on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

I disagree. There are only so many ways to write about the same service. It's not a question of 'thinking outside the box'. It's a question of the market you're in.

A few examples:

- a training company cannot write about the same course twice
- an antique restorer cannot write about every single type of (for example) chair they restore because the process is the same.
- an insurance broker / debt advisor only advises on a set number of policies / problems and solutions
- an isp only has a certain number of packages
- a hosting company only offers a finite amount of server builds and management options
- a catering company only has a set number of items on the menu. How many meals a day are there? How many reasons are there for wanting a caterer?

These are all real businesses, and there is a finite amount you can write about them.

tedster

WebmasterWorld Senior Member tedster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 12:11 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

There are two kinds of information that are often kept secret. One would be newly discovered holes in the algo that can be exploited for the moment -- until Google plugs them. This is more along the lines of what people call black hat approaches, and they're not really workable for longevity in the SERPs.

The second kind is the open secret. People can tell you about it openly every day, but until you roll up your sleeves and get the hands-on experience of it into your blood, the message stays secret because it just doesn't connect for you.

One of these open secrets is the importance of Information Architecture and the related topic of menu labels. There's actually a discipline here, and a very full profession, derived predominantly from Library Science (just as html itself is derived from sgml.) The choice of menu items and their labels is such a very big deal for success on Google. With Google's algo so focused on links, this is only to be expected.

One of the big deals about a strong Information Architecture is that it sends Google clear signals about the relative importance of pages on a site. Sites whose navigation tries to say "all my pages are important" end up sending another signal as well -- "all my pages are equally unimportant." Those two apparently opposite messages are actually logical equivalents.

Recently I heard of someone who increased sales by over 1000% by working to get sets of pages OUT of Google's index. In other words, they stopped sending out such a muddy message and they clarified their signal, their Information Architecture.

Sites with a well-conceived Information Architecture seldom run into yo-yo-like troubles with Google's ongoing data refreshes and dial tweaks. Repeating the same 70 links down the left side of every page is not an Information Architecture, it's more like Chinese Takeout.

Here's a related idea. Supplemental Results today are not necessarily a sign that your site has the cooties. But if you see important pages that are tagged as supplemental, and at the same time you see trivial pages are not -- then you do have a sign that you've confused Google somehow.

Related threads:
Information Architecture for the Small Site - part 1 [webmasterworld.com]
Information Architecture for the Small Site - part 2 [webmasterworld.com]
Putting Information Architecture into Practice [webmasterworld.com]

[edited by: tedster at 6:27 am (utc) on Feb. 3, 2007]

theBear

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 12:20 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

Not only does it clue Google into relative importance.

It also allows you to refine dare I say it key phrases.

Just like there are insurance brokers and they sell insurance, do you have any idea of exactly how many kinds there are and all of the possible riders, it kinda, sorta, has a taxonomy of its own.

Good luck

Dang it tedster, we always try to befuddle Google ;-).

<edit to add befuddle line>

[edited by: theBear at 12:21 am (utc) on Feb. 3, 2007]

IanTurner

WebmasterWorld Administrator ianturner us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 2:36 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

Some great stuff here for those who are looking to learn.

Now we focus on SERP Penetration.

Absolutely Traffic = Money

The veterans are speaking. I hope you're listening. They often do speak the truth here, but many are so busy looking for what they expect that they can not hear it.

The message P1R and Tedster are sharing has been whispered loudly here for at least 5 years and has only become more useful over that time.

It also works as a lullaby allowing peaceful sleep on nights when Google is dancing wildly in the room next door.

treeline, that is one of the best posts I have seen here at WebmasterWorld in a long time, the last line in particular is SO SO TRUE it is an amazing SEO quote.

What do you call traffic spikes from keyphrases at the bottom of the torso? :-)

europeforvisitors, if you're doing organic you call it a bonus, if you're doing PPC you call it click fraud :)

[edited by: IanTurner at 2:37 am (utc) on Feb. 3, 2007]

MarketExpert



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 4:01 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

"Just like there are insurance brokers and they sell insurance."
Congratulations, you have found one of the most successful channels!
I am an internet marketing master bacause I KNOW GOOGLE! Its a bitch that chooses pages. All my pages (with few ecxeptions) end up in the sandbox. (The sandbox starts counting down the minute it starts) Usually 1 month give or take. The key is to "not wait for google". Because eventually every other searchengine that means anything will come searching for your pages. IF THE HAVE INBOUND LINKS.
This is only the tip of the iceburg.
YOUR WELCOME!

s_clay

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 6:00 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

Awesome stuff. Thanks.

Pico_Train

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 6:17 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

Interesting Tedster, signals of equal importance and unimportance...will look into that a bit more.

#1 result, long-tail, 2to 3 word combinations, those are all great but let's not also forget the mass of traffic possible through Image searches. Sure they're not the highest converters, and a lot end up being image thieves, but they can bring in serious traffic to help raise that bottom line too and cover some of your little bills if you show them interesting things on top of your images.

leadegroot

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 9:21 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

One of the reasons '#1' isn't as important anymore is that its hard to say when you have it.
I look at my logs and follow the visitors and think - 'what, that came off page 2? I'm seeing a solid #3 on that query!' (Or vice versa)
Results vary so much across datacentres (and I wonder how much personalisation affects it already) that a statement of 'we are #1 for Blue Widgets' is unlikely to be universally true.

Muskie

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 10:05 am on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

Being #1 really depends on the keyword(s). For "viagra" I wouldn't even know what the top site is, but based on spam I get it must be a highly competative term. Surely the drug manufacture should do reasonably well... Hence the excellent advice to try for a broader base of related terms. I'm always amazed at some of the stuff people type in to search engines and end up on my website looking for.

I've also noticed that surfers will skip, or at least look past the top 1 or two results, sometimes even out of the top 10 if they are looking for something really specific. Although you have limited control over it, the description/blurb Google puts in the search results influences what links I click on and probably does for others too. You do have control over your URL and your title tag so using them wisely will always be important to SEO.

A yes, my third point was trial and error. There is definitely no shortage of good advice here and elsewhere online, but there isn't a magic formula that will work forever for every single keyword. The Google algoritm evolves over time, so your site has to evolve to a degree. Trial and error is very much a part of search engine optimization indeed any form of marketing. You have a test market, or a focus group, or make a product available for a limited time only initially, SEO is no different. Many people own domains they expirement with, or use a portion of a site or even a single page to test out some theory. Your competition, especially for competitive terms, doesn't stand still.

There are a few things that are just smart to do, such as decent HTML, intelligent title tag, using schematic webdesign ie heading tags and paragraphs, realistic use of meta tags, alt and/or title attributes. You don't need a PhD. to recognize spam.

It is very difficult to rank #1 for a keyword phrase forever. Every now and then I notice in Google or another search engine that I've dropped out of the top spot for the keyword I monitor the most, but usually it is only temporary and I don't usually do anything, let alone anything drastic. I try to add new content, ideally really good content... and I gradually accumulate links.

Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

jake_m

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 12:31 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

@tedster

1. the "head" is the #1 trophy word (only one winner here),
2. the "long tail" is all those highly targeted long search phrases (high conversion, but low traffic)
3. the "fat belly" is a solid variety of 2 or 3 word phrases

The fat belly is what you need the most - and 2 or 3 words is what most searches are made of. Different fat belly phrases may rank anywhere on the first or second page and still be valuable.

Please, please, please, webmasters - pay attention to this sage advice. They key to success is in the fat bellies (or torso as we so aptly have it now) and the long tails that follow are oh so productive.

centime

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 1:23 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

google webmaster tools is good for seeing what position, page 1, page2,,,, your visitor came from, but its not too detailed,

how do you read your log figures to tell you what page visitor came from, which variable shows this

lfgoal

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 3:45 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

"It's not a question of 'thinking outside the box'. It's a question of the market you're in."

I thought it was a question of trying to drive traffic to your site.

"These are all real businesses, and there is a finite amount you can write about them."

Oh, really? If I enter the search parameter "high performance cams" in google, I get a certain search-result set. If I enter "cams high performance", I get a different search-result set. What should that tell someone? It should be obvious.

For an "info" site, the search parameter "how to cam an Ls1" retrieves very different results from "how to perform a cam job on an Ls1"

Aren't they basically the "same question"? Do they not retrieve different results and, thus, deliver different web searchers to your pages?

I stand by my statements.

1. If you want traffic you should produce pages (among doing a hundred other things).

2. You can talk about a single subject endlessly and in endlessly different ways and there's no harm in doing this as long as you produce good content. The ability to do this, however, may be limited by your ability to write and your willingness to write endlessly and to continually find new ways to creatively beat a subject to death.

3. If you don't acknowledge this reality, you probably don't want to do the work required to drive traffic to your site. And, over time, your positioning on the web will probably continue to degrade because everyday more sites and more pages come online making the search results even more competitive. And everyday, more webmasters get smarter, though, thankfully, not that many.

4. If you don't want the traffic, others will be glad to take it. Some of those who take the traffic will be those who continually produce content and links for their sites/pages and others will be those who come up in searches because their content and titles more closely match search queries than your own.

idolw

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 5:01 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

Maybe i need to get thousands to help me announce my love for beer during superbowl somehow.

for one of my sites the problem was not to get to the top of the SERPs but to provide the user with what they wanted because we were just starting and orders were flooding us. we were simply not prepared for that. funny, eh?

my bet is that if you have a good site it goes up much easier. people simply like it.

[edited by: tedster at 6:36 pm (utc) on Feb. 3, 2007]

wanna_learn

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 5:41 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

"Sites with a well-conceived Information Architecture seldom run into yo-yo-like troubles with Google's ongoing data refreshes and dial tweaks. Repeating the same 70 links down the left side of every page is not an Information Architecture, it's more like Chinese Takeout."

Thats the kind of EYE-OPENERS and tips I had been trying to get via this Thread.

Thanks a ton, please keep coming

:Veterans do speak but its really important to sum up ideas and guidelines at some point of time:

nutsandbolts

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 10:17 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

I gave up long ago - now I just spend time building content/websites. The results have been much better since I stopped "poking" around :)

northweb

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 10:45 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

wanna_learn...great post.

Patrick Taylor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 11:23 pm on Feb 3, 2007 (gmt 0)

Quoting tedster is always a great post.

Lorel

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 12:14 am on Feb 4, 2007 (gmt 0)

"Targeting terms by adding pages just doesn't work for many businesses."

Au contraire.

Every page you add becomes another opportunity to be found in a search engine by the title of the page that's been found. Every page you add is also another opportunity to provide internal links to other pages of your site with favorable anchor text.

I agree. I have steadily added new pages to my site (expanding on established pages) and added more content to smaller pages and over the last 4 months my traffic has increased by 8.000 more visitors per month by only adding about 4 pages per month.

karmov

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 1:33 am on Feb 4, 2007 (gmt 0)

The Open Secret is the single most important thing that keeps WebmasterWorld relevant.

The problem is that aside from people being averse to working hard, there's also the problem of nearsightedness. Many people feel like they have a specific problem and end up getting very nearsighted when asking questions and looking for answers.

The trick to finding Open Secrets is to broaden your perspective on things and look at everything from a distance.

coburn

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 7:50 am on Feb 4, 2007 (gmt 0)

Pssst! Looking for a quick fix? Listen to John Lubbock:
"What we see depends mainly on what we look for"

grandpa

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3239760 posted 8:30 am on Feb 4, 2007 (gmt 0)

Many people feel like they have a specific problem and end up getting very nearsighted when asking questions and looking for answers.

Indeed ;-) My most recent big problem was a result of my own nearsightedness. I could give you excuses too.. but that's all they are, and they're no substitute for doing real work. Eventually I got the message, again, and went back to work. Some of us are hard of hearing or forgetful, too.

Over the last few years the focus has changed. For us, it began with the Florida debacle, and the introduction of advertising as a means to obtain traffic. In a sense, today it's a lot easier to get traffic, if that's all you want. Just go buy it and be done. But if you're looking for sustainable results then it still takes real work. Being above the fold is worth far more than an advertising campaign.

Advertising has actually reduced the 'pressure' or the urgency to build a site to its peak of perfection. If I have a site that produces thru advertising then why spend more time on it when I can build more sites just like it? Frankly, I think this is a common attitude. Think about it, the discussions about how to get to #1 will have tapered off about the same time webmasters had a new tools to reach their audience. The Google forums here are full of messages of people trying to maximize their benefit from those new tools of the trade.

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