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Frames and Google

 7:04 pm on Nov 13, 2006 (gmt 0)


a friend of mine has a site with frames. He has to stick to the frame layout because he gets all the data and layout from a support company. So the html-code is something like this:

frameset rows="0,*" ...
frame src="empty.html" ...
frame src=""http://www.example.com/.....
keywords ......

Since the support company data is on a different domain and server my friend's site does not get any Google juice, right? He can built additional content but this would all be on the other server. So, as I assume the only SEO possibility is having a keyword rich title, disregarding keyword and description tags. And what's about the noframes area. I mentioned above keywords because I saw on the Net a high ranked <similr> site with a LOT of keywords (only keywords!) in the noframes area. Does this help or would Google look at this as spam? How can I help my friend to get good Google rankings?

Thanks in advance for your help.


[edited by: tedster at 3:42 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
[edit reason] remove specifics [/edit]



 4:52 pm on Nov 14, 2006 (gmt 0)

Google indexes NOFRAMES content as page content, so it will credit keyword-rich text put there, but there is one problem - it doesn't follow links put in NOFRAMES section - or at least I have noticed such problem 2 years ago, I'm not sure if they changed it since then.

The solution I have been using before switching to IFRAMES was hiding FRAMESET and NOFRAMES tags in JavaScript document.write - this resulted in Google indexing framed site properly and getting decent SERPs.

However, I thought it didn't comply with Google Webmaster Guidelines, so when I was going to add Adsense, I switched to IFRAME-based layout - Google indexes content inside IFRAME properly and follows links in this content with no problems.


 9:31 am on Nov 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

Thanks Wizard!

But isn't it spam when you put a LOT OF ONLY KEYWORDS into the noframes area? I say this because "normal" site visitors, who haven't disabled frames, don't see this noframes text.

And, because my friend has to stick to the frames layout, what's about my question about the

frame src="support-company....

Am I right that Google goes to this address at the other domain and server, indexing the site content for THAT domain and not for my friend's domain. So my friend does NOT get any ranking benefit for his site, right? I am a little confused about this aspect and I hope that I have explained it somehow understandably so that you can give me some advice.

Again, thank you for your help.


[edited by: tedster at 3:44 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
[edit reason] remove specifics [/edit]


 10:04 am on Nov 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

...indexing the site content for THAT domain and not for my friend's domain. So my friend does NOT get any ranking benefit for his site, right?

Exactly right.


 12:34 pm on Nov 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

If I were your friend, I wouldn't want to build a website on this base. The only thing he does is creating an extra doorway to the travel support company. All Google juice he collects by carefully obtaining links, directory listings etc is directly flowing to the travel support company's site. Their domain name will be indexed in Google and not your friend's. Seems a scam to me rather than something like a decent affiliate setup.


 5:11 pm on Nov 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

isn't it spam when you put a LOT OF ONLY KEYWORDS into the noframes area?

Yes, and probably enough to get the site banned if competitor filled Google spam report. But you cat use keyword rich text instead of 'only keywords' to minimise the risk. Myself, I used just simple HTML version of the same content I had in frame, with no keyword stuffing, and it did well enough.


 9:41 pm on Nov 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

I have a site that is frames-based, and found that by putting a simple text hyperlink to the site's table of contents / navigation (simple html that would normally be in its own left side frame) into my noframes code, instead of duplicating my content in the frames page, the user gets one browser session for that. Then, since each link from the TOC opens a new page for the target url, (via <base target="main"> in the head of the TOC page) the user can always see the table of contents, and the target page in two separate IE sessions. In Firefox, this works even slicker, since it opens a new tab for all base frame content, and the user can simply switch tabs to go back & forth between the TOC and main content. I haven't tried it in IE7.

I believe that G must be following the link in the noframes code to index the rest of the site's contents, since there are no other links in the normal home page main frame that would allow the site to be spidered and indexed as well as it is.


 7:17 am on Nov 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

Ronny: I don't know if you or Wizard are right with Google following links in the noframes area or not. But, I assume you have a frameset with a frame for the nav which has as source a html-page. And in this html-page are the nav-links. And I assume Google finds THOSE links, follows them and indexes your site. Am I right other fellows?

Now back to my problems: I think I use the iframe solution. But now I have an additional question:

My friend wants to concentrate on the cruise business because there is now and probably for a long time a big surge in demand. So he wants to have for the cruise business another domain, separate from the travel domain, and getting mainly for this site high Google ranking. Although on the cruise site would be only cruise related content there would and has to be also such things like masthead, contact us, privacy notice etc. which would have the same content as on the travel site. And he wants also link both sites together. So because of the linking Google knows the relationship of both sites and sees the duplicate content. Would this then degrade the ranking of both sites? And how would you handle this aspect?

Again thanks for your help.



 8:43 am on Nov 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

Forgot to ask this question:

Because my friend has to change the content for his server with an editing program on the travel support company server it would be good to include those changed html-files from the travel support company server into iframes on his server. But then these would be three iframes: header, navigation and content. What would Google say to this? Is it with three iframes still good for the ranking? Of course I could move the header and navigation to his server, because they are changed not so very often, and change them there. But then the files on both servers are not equal and perhaps the support company changes also something without his knowledge.



 9:37 am on Nov 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

Google does indeed follow links in noframes and indexes the noframe-page as any other page.

However, there is a problem: according to a warning that "Google Search Quality" mailed us hours before they kicked us out of the index ("Let's do some evil..."), they regard noframes-text as hidden text...

We did no keyword-stuffing or other black hat-tricks: just a general description of the site and a sitemap. Just as alternate-text is supposed to be according to everyone outside the plex.

We guessed they might mean they wanted to see noframes as an exact mirror of the default pages in the frameset (what the user sees before he navigates the site and without any specific page loaded in the frameset based on a querystring).

After changing noframes based on this guess work, we filed a reinclusion request and our site came back. Although the Quality-guys didn't have te decency to answer any of our questions, I think it's safe to assume Google redefines alternate-text as "exact mirror of your default screen".

I don't know if albert0346's friend is adding any additional value to the information from the travel support company (or maybe gives a unique discount or whatever), but if he does he should consider using XML to present the info on his own site.

If he is just taking commission without adding any value, his site will be duplicate content. But if he rearranges the XML-information and adds his own (editorial info, travel tips, users experiences, special offers) XML might be a great solution.


 11:19 am on Nov 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

Thanks Piet59.

Perhaps I should clarify: The support company offers a site management system where you can build your pages AND offers all the information data and you can also order.

Could you please explain a little more how to create those XML-files with which content.

And, does someone have an answer to my previous two questions? Would be nice. Thanks in advance.


[edited by: tedster at 3:47 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]


 7:16 pm on Nov 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

I searched the forum for "iframe" and found that it's not adviseable to use navigation in an iframe.

And, as tedster confirmed with frames the same I think is true for iframes: When I use in src="support domain" then the support domain get indexed and not my friend's site, right?

So I think iframes are not the best way for me. What's about SSI? Can I use SSI to include pages from other domains in a page on my friend's server?

[edited by: tedster at 3:45 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]


 11:30 pm on Nov 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

SSI is altogether different. The "combining" happens on the server -- to the user agent, the html document is still one whole entity and there is no trace of how things were put together in the code that is actually served. Not a problem and a very handy way to work yourmain menu.


 12:37 am on Nov 17, 2006 (gmt 0)

Perhaps I should clarify: The support company offers a site management system where you can build your pages AND offers all the information data and you can also order.

That sounds to me like: no original content, no pricing of your own. So the current situation (Google crawling and indexing the support company-site) looks just right to me. Everything else sounds like duplicate content.

Could you please explain a little more how to create those XML-files with which content.

You'd better contact the support company or have a look at their FAQ to see whether they deliver XML. Explaining exactly how it works would take a complete course, but in general: it's a way to use their data on your site.

Of course this is only usefull when you add your own unique information to it. Otherwise it's still duplicate content or at it's best "thin affiliate".

[edited by: tedster at 3:46 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]


 3:05 pm on Nov 22, 2006 (gmt 0)


after having a long discussion with my friend I've got some, sometimes strange, ideas how I should go forward. But before I do it I want to ask you and hope you have time and the willingness to help me:

Since he cannot escape this frame problem he at least wants to get some additional help for Google ranking with his other reserved domains. He wants to create for every domain, perhaps at least 5 of them, one to three pages with good content with keywords. Then he wants to link every domain with each other and with the main domain which has the main content. Since those domains have then not so many links to them he wants to exchange the domain-content (move the content from domain A to B, B to A, C to D ....) every let's say 3 weeks or so, and give so Google every 3 weeks new content for every domain. So, this all sounds like my friend wants to trick Google, don't you think so? And Google probably recognizes this, right?

Then a question for a "normal" procedure:

When he has those 5 domains with not so many content and links and he links to the main domain does this hurt the ranking of his main domain? Or is a one-page domain not hurting page rank? And if the content on those domains stays the same for a couple of months this probably is also not good for ranking, right?

So, what would you suggest my friend to do?

Thanks again for your help.


[edited by: tedster at 3:40 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
[edit reason] remove specifics [/edit]


 3:56 pm on Nov 22, 2006 (gmt 0)

Your friend's idea IS trying to fool Google and I think it's eventually very destructive.

Google does not want to show many sites in their index that only offer the same thing as many other clients of the same support company, and they are getting good at spotting this practice. Unless a site offers their visitors some unique added value over and above the general service from the support company, they will usually be filtered out.

The only real answer for getting organic search traffic today is not to try tricks but to actually offer extra value, something unique and served from your own domain. Otherwise, look for other sources for traffic than Google Search.


 2:20 pm on Nov 27, 2006 (gmt 0)

If he uses those other domains with only ONE or TWO pages with relevant content, which changes let's say once per week, and only incoming links from the other domains, do those domains get good ranking? Or do they need MORE relevant content? And if those domains have bad ranking and if he links those domains to his main domain can this then hurt the main domain ranking?


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