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Microsoft goes after Google
aims to topple the king (ha)
amznVibe




msg:1537091
 12:49 am on Sep 20, 2003 (gmt 0)

[cnn.technology.printthis.clickability.com...]

Chairman Bill Gates, Chief Executive Steve Ballmer and a handful of other executives sat down in February to answer a question asked countless times before in the world's largest software maker's 28-year history. Should Microsoft build or buy?

What they decided was to build technology that would eventually surpass Google Inc.'s ability to sift through the Web and return results relevant enough to make it the top Internet search destination.

 

Dave_Hawley




msg:1537151
 1:55 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

They don't tell me how much they love Microsoft. They want me to help them with their Microsoft problems. They want me to fix their computers because they don't work or they're not reliable

...and there you have it! People dislike MS and Windows yet they STILL use them. Marketing.

Dave

Arnett




msg:1537152
 2:05 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

...and there you have it! People dislike MS and Windows yet they STILL use them. Marketing.

Not so fast. It's not just marketing. They believe that there are no other choices available to them. Bill Gates has made sure of that. Marketing.

Arnett




msg:1537153
 2:10 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

I think that the original topic of this thread was the formal announcemnt of Microsoft search.

My opinion is,that people will use the search that gives them the results that they want. Microsoft can't control the internet and make you use their search. You can already configure IE to search from the address bar. I have IE set to search www-sj.google.com from the address bar. Most people will never need the Google Toolbar. A convenient web search feature in Windows would be welcome as long as I can can set the default search engine to whatever I want. I generally use either Google or Altavista. Maybe I'll like and use MSN search. Maybe someday pigs will have wings.

Arnett




msg:1537154
 2:11 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

You know what else would be really cool? A spel cheking feture in the post mesage page.

Dave_Hawley




msg:1537155
 2:18 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Not so fast. It's not just marketing. They believe that there are no other choices available to them. Bill Gates has made sure of that. Marketing.

huh? marketing *is* the reason why "They believe that there are no other choices available to them"

Dave

Arnett




msg:1537156
 2:26 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

They believe that there are no other choices available to them

That's my belief. Microsloth has driven all the other competitors from the marketplace by hook or by crook. I'd like to see how well their OS would perform in a fair and open market without their leverage with the PC vendors.

I walk into a store. I see Windows for $90. I see Linux-Mandrake for $29. I buy Linux Mandrake. MacMillan doesn't distribute it any more. Too bad. I liked it a lot.

plumsauce




msg:1537157
 2:49 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)


I've been working with computers and for 20 years. I've talked to a LOT of "Average Joes". They don't tell me how much they love Microsoft. They want me to help them with their Microsoft problems. They want me to fix their computers because they don't work or they're not reliable.

This is a version of the self fulfilling prophecy.
They aren't really asking to have their MS problems
fixed. They are asking to have their computer problems
fixed. It just happens to seem related to MS because
that is what they happen to have. Now, why is it
that they don't have something else?

This is like a garage mechanic who books a LOT of
Chevrolets into the service bays, but only ONE
Ferrari over twenty years. For a flat tire.
He then extrapolates and says that Ferrari's
are SO much more reliable according to his lengthy
experience. Well, it's a huge sample, so he must
be right, says he. First, probably not, and
second why are there so many more Chevy's?

I'm going to put out that the root of MS bashing
is ENVY. Shouldn't you be Bill?

There is a lot more to MS than Flight Simulator.
Some people often belittle the accomplishments
of MS. Some in this thread claim to have programmed
for many years. Well, then the challenge is
to get together as a group and see if you really can cobble
together something at least as good as and containing
equivalent functionality to say:

Microsoft Exchange 2000,
Microsoft SQL Server 2000,
Microsoft IIS/5, or
Microsoft Visual Studio Enterprise.

Oh, and it would be really, really, really nice if you
could run this on an operating system of your own design.

If you can do it, I'm sure the line up to invest
$10k for 50% as long as you first prove that you have
mortgaged everything you and your families own as
startup capital would be a mile long.

So, who can really walk the walk?

+++++

Arnett




msg:1537158
 3:02 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Shouldn't you be Bill

LOL. If I woke up and looked like that I'd shoot myself. Watch out. There's somebody waiting to tell you that "Average Joe" doesn't use any of that stuff. I don't know anybody who does either.

Arnett




msg:1537159
 3:04 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

They aren't really asking to have their MS problems
fixed.

You sure know an awful lot about the conversations for not having been there....That's exactly what they asked me to fix. I believe that they were complaining about Microsoft Windows. Of course,you were there and I wasn't.

Arnett




msg:1537160
 3:06 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

This is like a garage mechanic who books a LOT of
Chevrolets into the service bays, but only ONE
Ferrari over twenty years. For a flat tire.
He then extrapolates and says that Ferrari's
are SO much more reliable according to his lengthy
experience. Well, it's a huge sample, so he must
be right, says he. First, probably not, and
second why are there so many more Chevy's?

Let me guess. Statistics and Probability 101.

hurlimann




msg:1537161
 3:07 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Their chap Koenigsbauer says "Search engines are doing a good job but not a perfect job”. MS will of course produce the perfect job just as they always do:) Revenue rather than relevancy will rule IMO.

BTW No one is richer than God. Gates will die just as Linus Torvalds will. Both made contributions that fundamentally change how the world relates. Whislt Google is great I doubt history will credit them in equal measure.


Josefu




msg:1537162
 6:54 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

This is like a garage mechanic who books a LOT of
Chevrolets into the service bays, but only ONE
Ferrari over twenty years. For a flat tire.
He then extrapolates and says that Ferrari's
are SO much more reliable according to his lengthy
experience. Well, it's a huge sample, so he must
be right, says he. First, probably not, and
second why are there so many more Chevy's?

Plumsauce, your whole post was full of biased and blind reasoning but the above takes the cake. Not only you insinuate that Windows is a Ferarri, it's you who accuse others of faulty reasoning and inexperience. Don't insult anyone's intelligence, okay? : ) Saying that Windows is a Chevy made up as and sold at the price of a Ferarri would be closer to the truth. But I do exaggerate : )

After a bit of thought I agree that a Microsoft SE is not the threat I first thought it to be - but they can still damage Google's 'natural' popularity through 'force-feeding' windows users a taste of their 'new' product. BTW - Internet Explorer is finished and no longer in development, the next version will be an integral part of Windows - but this won't happen for at least another two years. I wonder if MS's SE plans have something to do with this and will appear in the same Windows release.

[edited by: Josefu at 7:16 am (utc) on Sep. 22, 2003]

Josefu




msg:1537163
 7:15 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Not so fast. It's not just marketing. They believe that there are no other choices available to them. Bill Gates has made sure of that. Marketing.

huh? marketing *is* the reason why "They believe that there are no other choices available to them"

...I think that the above question should be answered for a LOT of products on the market today. But concerning Google, let me put it this way: Google works well, it does what it's users expect of it, it's a good product made with only helping A find B in mind. They have their popularity because of word of mouth and product superiority: a perfect example of a 'free market' winner, on top because of user choice.

If MS does introduce a SE it is uncertain that they will dominate the market but they sure as hell will change it. SE world will have a new heavyweight contender who, instead of developing a quality product better than google, will be trying to block and delay and stomp and elbow competitors away from 'potential MS users' - in short, SE world won't be a 'free market' anymore. Some winners and losers until now for sure have spent millions in changes, but have lost and won because of QUALITY. This will change once MS is on the scene. Marketing indeed.

Marcia




msg:1537164
 7:42 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Since this is the Google News forum and we're talking about search, how about let's keep the O/S wars and the browser wars out of it.

Oh, and how about leaving sarcasm and digs out of it, too. No matter if Bill Gates wears boxer shorts or briefs, we're supposed to be talking about search, if I read the first post and the forum charter and TOS right.

ThatAdamGuy




msg:1537165
 8:14 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

AOL brings some interesting (and yes, Marcia, relevant :D) issues to mind.

On one hand, I think most of us will agree that -- for most if not all of its 'lifespan' -- AOL has been amongst the most inferior and limiting ways to connect to the Internet.

Even today, AOL's e-mail system is non-standard and for anyone with an ounce of computer experience, largely frustrating; for instance, it's the ONLY GUI mail reader I'm familiar with in which hyperlinks are not innately clickable. That makes life for us e-newsletter a living hell ("Click here, if you're an AOL'er" <sigh>)

But guess what? Tens of millions of people still use AOL. It's more expensive than any other dialup option (to my knowledge), it's slower, it's more limiting, it's ad-ridden, and so on. Locally, for instance, Frys (of Frys Superstore) offers far-superior Internet access for less than HALF the price of AOL.

---

So what does this have to do with Microsoft, Google, and search?

Well, AOL is a scary example (IMHO) of a greatly inferior service becoming massively popular AND actually harming the Internet, all thanks to blitz marketing, the challenges of computing that non-geeks face, and viral effects.

So am I saying that Google is doomed? Hmm... wait a minute! Let's consider MSN, for a moment. Built into Windows (starting from Win 95, right?). An icon on the desktop. Created and managed by one of the wealthiest companies in the world.

But MSN was unable to beat out AOL.

---

I hold out high hopes for Google. Skeptics might point to the similarly lauded Netscape once upon a time, but did anyone say, "I'm gonna Netscape that info"? Though Netscape did have a commanding lead in market penetration for years against the early-stumbling Internet Explorer, I recall folks then marveling about the Web itself, not the tool they were using to access it.

It's different with search. People seem almost obsessively loyal to Google, and I'm guessing that this ingrained (and likely taught from person to person) habit of GOING to www.google.com is likely to stay with us for quite some time, regardless of Microsoft's efforts.

Then again, could Microsoft ever buy Google? That, IMHO, is the scarier and more interesting question ;) I mean, Netscape selling out to AOL? Who woulda thunk?!

TheWhippinpost




msg:1537166
 9:19 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Since this is the Google News forum and we're talking about search, how about let's keep the O/S wars and the browser wars out of it.

Amen, phew!

Gentlemen, puhlease, it really all becomes quite boring to see the vocal minority fashionably, and predictably kick the ankles of any market leader/symbol.

... You made a lot of rants full of holes, the biggest one is comparing all of M$' woes to Google, as though G is a competing O/S!

kaled




msg:1537167
 9:56 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

QUESTION
Could/would MS buy Google?

ANSWER (Best guess)
No.

REASON
Think for a moment about exactly what MS would be buying. A load of hardware, a database, employee contracts, buildings, etc.

Let's guess a price for Google of, say, 1 billion dollars, that's enough money to start a new search engine and leave plenty to spare.

As soon as the new search engine was up and running and word was out that former Google engineers were behind it, people would try it. Assuming it worked well, after three or four years it could well overtake MS-Google.

Add other factors such as MS engineers screwing it up, the general hatred and loathing of Microsoft and it's a pretty safe bet that in the long term such a purchase would be a complete waste of money.

Kaled.

PS
Microsoft will come unstuck eventually. It could have happened in 1995 if IBM had had the foresight to give OS/2 WARP away free 8 months before Win95 was released.

storevalley




msg:1537168
 10:06 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Think for a moment about exactly what MS would be buying. A load of hardware, a database, employee contracts, buildings, etc

That's all anybody ever gets when they buy a company (if they are lucky).

But then they would also be buying a coherent organisation and a shedload of in-progress research. This would save them the time and money required to build this ...

Marcia




msg:1537169
 10:31 am on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

No matter how good Google is, it would have meant little if word hadn't gotten out, if they hadn't by some magic marketing reached the public as quickly and effectively as they did.

Whatever else we think, a big part of Google's appeal is their culture - a culture Microsoft never achieved and never could. It would do little good for MS to buy Google; the impetus and impact would be gone because MS couldn't mantain the culture and the flavor.

With Google it's much more than just being a company, much more than just being great search that's user-friendly. They're a phenomenon.

Josefu




msg:1537170
 2:25 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

...I did go a little deeper than needed, sorry. I was using a few of MS's major 'steps forward' (and others helpfully provided their results) as examples to try to predict how MS would go about 'creating' a new search engine and how it would (attempt to) affect the rest of the market. MS motivations with MS actions, not MS vs the google OS : )

I think Marcia sums it up in 'Google culture' - a culture is something we identify with because it's something we can relate to, something useful. Unimaginative MS sees that sort of success as a 'market' or a 'trend'. Google is great and growing and learns from its own mistakes - I hope it can continue growing and concentrating on improving its pie recipe without having to worry about the intrusion of some giant's clumsy thumbs.

c1bernaught




msg:1537171
 3:33 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Perhaps MS sees a weakness in Google and an opportunity for themselves...

Google is struggling under the massive index they have created and they have stumbled a couple times... exposing a weakness...

MS isn't the only one lining up. It's only a matter of time before Yahoo!/Ink/Overture get's it's ducks in a row...

Lots of money to be made...

Also, just heard a report on the top 20 richest men in America under the age of 40. Brin and Page made the list with $900m apiece...

Namaste




msg:1537172
 6:43 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

there might be a very interesting way in which MS could build a search engine:
1. Intergrate reporting into Windows Server...there could be a tag that makes a file available to the Internet. Everytime the file is changed, it is reported.
2. Windows itself could have a crawler built into it, which crawls whenever the computer is idle.

As far as distribution of the search goes, they will do it via all their products: Windows, MSN, Office, Explorer, etc. They put a search bar as deafult into everything.

The question is how important does MS view search...it is clear that the revenue that Google is earning is peanuts for MS, so, do they view it as a revenue source? Or do they view it as "business pillar"? the way they viewed the browser.

I personally think it will be a good thing when MS enters. And Google is not going to fade the way Netscape did ... they have already built a solid revenue source, and MS can't break them by giving away the search "free"

EliteWeb




msg:1537173
 6:48 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

I'll optimize for anything so bring it on :) I love Google results so we will have to see what they do, but yup with billions of dollars you can make anything happen.

Give more people direct access to search engines! I still know so many people who don't search. Heck I remember when I first found Google or any other search engine I wasnt used to the idea of it and had some getting used to for it.

Namaste




msg:1537174
 7:46 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

I still know so many people who don't search

that is what it's all about.
I went to my doctor the other day and was discussing someting with him...he was surprised that I had so much information...he asked me how I found it...when I told him "Google", he looked all lost...I told him it was a search engine...he had never realised that one could search for medical information on the web! I promised to give him a free "consultation".

One thing for sure:serach is under-used. The entry of MS will boost search. You can't deny that they make products for the masses and not just the classes.

div01




msg:1537175
 8:01 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

2. Windows itself could have a crawler built into it, which crawls whenever the computer is idle.

A la Grub? The M$ + Looksmart rumors usually come up every couple of months anyways....

Skier




msg:1537176
 8:17 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

I still know so many people who don't search.

I hardly know anyone that does search. Really almost none do in my circle. Affluent young educated too.

Ultimately, it should be the machines that search. The whole process leads to the completion of "Hal" (from 2001). A system that can answer your question directly and coherently.

That is what the public wants from a computer. The market will lead the industry toward that system.

[edited by: Skier at 9:14 pm (utc) on Sep. 22, 2003]

hafgan




msg:1537177
 9:01 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Microsoft has known from the beginning what it is doing, it probably has 50 psychologists working with them, there not geeks, they are very rich geeks.

Actually they do have psychologists working for them. I once applied, through a contracting company, for a position making mock programs so the psychologists could study how people used them and then improve the program. edit - Just some interesting insight into Microsoft.

Why do virus and worm people spend so much time on Windows? Because they HATE Microsoft. They don't have any reason to hate Linux,OS@,BEOS or OSX

edit - disregard rest of post if you want. I didn't realize others already made this point. I jumped to posting this when I read the above quote because coincidently I had been discussing this very topic the other day, and this was my conclusion. - end edit

Actually, probably the biggest reason is because there are more windows computers out there than anything else. Why waste your time making a virus that effects only a small percentage of people when you can damage hundreds of thousands by targeting the most used operating systems? If hackers had a reason to focus on other operating systems they would find plenty of ways to exploit them. Just my opinion of course.

hafgan




msg:1537178
 9:18 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

Whatever else we think, a big part of Google's appeal is their culture - a culture Microsoft never achieved and never could. It would do little good for MS to buy Google; the impetus and impact would be gone because MS couldn't mantain the culture and the flavor.

I don't give a diddly squat about their culture. I have never taken part in their culture. (It's hard to when I don't live in California and don't work for them.) No offense to Google's culture, but I just want good results.

That's why I moved to them, that's why I recommend them, and that's why I'll leave them for someone better when (if) they come along. I don't care if it's Microsoft, Apple, or John Kadiddlehopper down the street running a search engine from his bedroom closet.

:)

anchordesk




msg:1537179
 11:54 pm on Sep 22, 2003 (gmt 0)

M$ will probably trip over their ever growing large feet in any pursuit to be number 1 in seach engines while Google still appears nimble enough to keep it's advantage for sometime to come. But competition is a good thing and should will benefit all in the long run.

MarkHutch




msg:1537180
 1:24 am on Sep 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

With Google it's much more than just being a company, much more than just being great search that's user-friendly. They're a phenomenon.

Hi Marcia, six months ago I would have totally agreed with you, but things are no where close to the same with Google and their crawling patterns as they were back then. In my view, they are leaving the door wide open for MS or someone else to leave them in the dust just like AV and Excite.

I've been at this Internet thing for almost 10 years, and something is happening at Google that isn't going to work well in the long run. I love Google, but there is no way they are going to succeed in the future if they are only interested in crawling first and second level domains with "fresh bots". I'm seeing a tremendous increase in deep crawling by AV, Fast, Slurp & Ask.

In the past three months I haven't seen Googlebot go past second level pages. (Example: yourdomain.com/mypage/yourpage/). In my view, the really good searches are always found beyond this level. I remember many times looking for modem instructions by searching by model number or something like that and those pages would never be found if a spider didn't go past second level searches. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope so, and Google is going to keep going deep into sites. However, this looks like a company that has a good database and wants to exploit it in the future without doing deep crawls to keep it current.

There are many SE that can prove this system won't work. However, it's hard to persuade bean counters at the corporate level that their thinking is flawed. I remember reading here in the forum a post from GG that said "we are all going to love the new Google". I'm still waiting to see this loving creature. Sorry for the long rant. :)

dcheney




msg:1537181
 2:01 am on Sep 23, 2003 (gmt 0)

M$ history teaches us one thing for sure - they can't get it even close to right until at least version 3.0 - so Google has quite a while before M$ search is really a threat. (I still haven't seen their experimental bot on my sites yet.)

(Remember Windows 2.0? hehe!)

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