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Microsoft, Google may go head-to-head
Article about MSN's Search initiative
gopi




msg:1539636
 3:53 pm on Jun 25, 2003 (gmt 0)


"Microsoft has long demonstrated they don't have to be best at something, but they have to be good enough for people to use their default settings"

[news.com.com...]

 

willybfriendly




msg:1539637
 7:51 pm on Jun 25, 2003 (gmt 0)

Interesting stuff. Any guesses how long until we see M$oft role something out for public use?

WBF

jeremy goodrich




msg:1539638
 8:02 pm on Jun 25, 2003 (gmt 0)

It'll take them at least a year or more to build their index, test, etc - they only started spidering last week or so.

What the article fails to look at is the size of Adwords, and the distributed Adsense program Google just launched. Consider Google last year, with one press release, became the largest web advertising network on the planet.

They are 12K advertisers ahead of Overture, and so far, it seems they are making all the moves first to keep that lead. Might as well instead of saying, "Google could be doomed" put the Overture label in there on the article, because Overture bought Altavista & Alltheweb and announced they will enter the algorithmic search market in full force "at some point" which may be after Microsoft gets it's stuff in gear to do it.

Some serious flaws there in the article, and large assumptions, pointing fingers at Google because they make good news headlines these days and they are missing everything about the situation that makes it interesting, indeed.

What about Microsoft - using Linux, more than likely, to build their search engine? Isn't that a bit odd, that they won't even use their own technology to run this new fandagled application? I find it strange, indeed, considering here at WebmasterWorld a few years ago, another moderator found a linux box running @ Microsoft, on a Microsoft allocated IP address, that had been up & running for more than a 100 days straight.

So if they don't trust their own applications to run this thing, what does that tell the world about how well they expect it to work? Odd.

And even then, Google drives it's revenues through sponsored links - the bulk of the revenue - licensing the core database is only a fraction of revenue.

Does this mean that Google will no longer have advertisers, that suddenly, people won't go to other websites?

The spin in the article didn't mention - because Microsoft won't release - the figure of revenue share they receive from Overture, because the bulk of those 'unique visitors to MSN' are from the error page in IE.

*If* the users aren't getting there from that, then surely, they would release the figure to back up the NetRatings / Neilson report that makes the claim MSN is the largest search property on the web?

Too many holes, too little analysis, and only Google in the place of Overture for the article because more than likely, more people will be looking at Google for news of an impending IPO...fun stuff, but off base.

kmarcus




msg:1539639
 8:37 pm on Jun 25, 2003 (gmt 0)

I can't wait to see how their new "security patches" will force ie users to use msn for search as well as on the desktop. But anyway.

I think that we will probably find out soon:


corp% nslookup beta.search.msn.com
Server: ns1.intelius.com
Address: 65.73.232.181

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: beta.search.msn.com
Address: 207.68.176.184

corp% nslookup search.msn.com
Server: ns1.intelius.com
Address: 65.73.232.181

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: search.msn.com
Addresses: 207.68.176.250, 207.68.185.58, 207.68.176.190

corp% telnet beta.search.msn.com 80
Trying 207.68.176.184...
telnet: connect to address 207.68.176.184: Connection refused
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
corp% nslookup search.msn.com
Server: ns1.intelius.com
Address: 65.73.232.181

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: search.msn.com
Addresses: 207.68.176.250, 207.68.185.58, 207.68.176.190

corp%

Those IP's sure look close together. I'm sure someone more risquee than me would be happy to run theport scanners and the like to see which port they have their web server actually running on the beta site. ;)

gopi




msg:1539640
 4:39 am on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Nice thinking jeremy ... but i still believe MS has the might to dominate Google in 3-4 years in the search arena even though the mere thinking of it sends shivers in me :)

Their biggest strength is their control over the distribution points - Browser and the Desktop ... Even simple steps like putting a default search toolbar on IE will increase their search traffic significantly.

I believe for another year or so they will concentrate on building a better index and improve search relevency before force-feeding it by leveraging their browser and desktop dominance .

martinibuster




msg:1539641
 5:29 am on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

This has been discussed for a few weeks now. But to recap:

before force-feeding it by (1)leveraging their browser and (2)desktop dominance.

1: IE will not be developed beyond 6.0. In other words, there will not be a browser to leverage. Browsing the web will be integrated within the next OS, currently code named Longhorn.

2: Longhorn will incorporate search directly from the desktop, whether you are searching for something on the hard drive or on the net. Browser, search, file access will all be integrated.

Now, take this thought one step further and think about this: If there is no IE, where will Google (or AskJeeves, etc.) hang their toolbar?

[webmasterworld.com ]

What does this mean, to "shut down" the toolbar? It means that MS will be able to lock out other search engines from the next OS.

gopi




msg:1539642
 11:44 am on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

>>> Browsing the web will be integrated within the next OS, currently code named Longhorn.

Martini , i accept that browsing will be integrated with the OS (like combining Web/local desktop search) and also key MS apps like Word in longhorn .

But surfing the web through a browser is a established
user behaviour and MS may not want to change it forcefully... So IE will still be there maybe its more tigthly integrated with the OS ...

jeremy goodrich




msg:1539643
 5:25 pm on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Just realized this morning, Google is, indeed, thinking long term about their business: advertising sales.

Consider adsense and consider where they get that revenue: from high quality sites that more than likely, will be ranked well in any search engine spider driven index on the planet.

So even if Microsoft *does* manage to get people to switch, those Google ads will already be covering the entire web.

Where is the threat, then? Will Microsoft - worst case scenario - destroy Google as a destination site? Could be.

Will they remove the ability of people to surf the internet? NO.

Google isn't *done for* and this article, as I said, is all wrong. Overture just released / announced their new program - is it creating the same hoopla that Google's is?

The web, cannot be 'owned' by anybody - become one with it, and you understand that is the only long term method of survival. Google is doing just that, and Overture is lagging behind.

*if* somebody is in danger, then CNET needs to go back and do a find & replace with the term Overture like their ticker, *if* CNET has a clue, they are OVER lol. Gotta love the irony of their ticker symbol.

kmarcus




msg:1539644
 5:47 pm on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

jeremy, if you're suggesting that google will not be displaceable by distributing their ads to sites which msn's search engine links to, i think you're dead wrong. It wouldn't take much for bcentral/linkexchange to turn around to do the exact the same thing.

webdevsf




msg:1539645
 5:49 pm on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Jeremy -

Are you just making up that part about MS using linux for their search engines? Just because they have legacy installs of linux from Hotmail doesn't mean anything.

It's always struck me as odd that WebmasterWorld has refused to host a messageboard about MSN search when it is plainly the second largest search results provider on the planet. You gave a board to Teoma for cryin-out-loud!

But between all the anti-MS rants from you & Brett, I think i understand better what the agenda is...

WDSF

jeremy goodrich




msg:1539646
 6:03 pm on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

No, it's nothing against MS - read more of my posts before you make a blanket judgement like that, eh? :)

I love their technology - what they have done with fuzzy logic & neural networks built into their applications is mind boggling, and imho, part & parcel of the real threat they pose if / when they enter the search arena.

This is what I said about Microsoft using Linux - don't put words in my posts that weren't there, please.

What about Microsoft - using Linux, more than likely, to build their search engine? Isn't that a bit odd, that they won't even use their own technology to run this new fandagled application?

>>>Messageboard for MS

Well, this is it until they actually do something :) There is the PFI forum [webmasterworld.com] - which covers Inktomi, and there is the PPC forum [webmasterworld.com] - which covers LookSmart - and the Overture forum [webmasterworld.com], which covers the PPC stuff.

And Directories forum [webmasterworld.com], where we discuss Zeal - all of the above, get you into MSN search. Why should we discuss something, when in reality, it's made of disparate parts at this point that are covered elsewhere? It would only lead to confusion.

kmarcus, you're right as far as that goes for bcentral / linkexchange to do the same thing. But first they need the advertiser base, etc - which I dont think they have. Overture doesn't even have it.

Though, if MSN *does* do something truly amazing, will people drop Google & flock to the MSN search service / search engine? Absolutely! I'll be first in line, if it actually works better.

And finally - one more thing:
>>> plainly the second largest search results provider on the planet

It is the largest according to Jupiter Research which I don't find is accurate. However, milage varies, and how many people get the IE error page on a daily basis? That counts as MSN search, I believe, but isn't actually a person going to search.msn.com or msn.com to search on purpose.

webdevsf




msg:1539647
 6:11 pm on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

I've never paid for inclusion to INK, and yet, MSN still provides me with a substantial set of results. Those results being totally different from pay for inclusion type results (such as findwhat, etc)

It still doesn't make any sense to me. Yahoo has its own board, Google has its own board. Both have directories/PPC/etc. Your criteria that MSN falls into one or other of these categories doesn't hold for the other of the "Big 3".

Obviously, MSN uses its results differently than other consumers of INK. I'd like to find a place that i can find about how to optimize for MSN. If you guys won't provide that, maybe there is someone else who does?

jeremy goodrich




msg:1539648
 6:16 pm on Jun 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Dude, ask away - start a new thread here.

However, currently, there is no MSN optimization. Each Inktomi partner provides it's own set of 'filters' for what to display, & not to display.

Yahoo applies their own filter to Google - look at their help page, they don't mention Google.

And as for Google, they are the largest search engine on the planet hence the article about the largest software company on the planet potentially gunning for them - since Microsoft admitted they consider Google a competitor (about a year ago originally).

So ya, that's why we've got a forum (or three) for Google, and another for Yahoo. You can also still browse the directory - many people do, and there is a lot of traffic to be had that way. It's a whole different ballgame than submitting to a spidering engine, or getting picked up by an algorithm.

Hope that helps. Questions are good - an open mind, and a question on the lips, is the best way to get ahead in this business that is constantly changing.

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