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I want my internet back dammit
Where have all the webmasters gone?
skippy




msg:295996
 8:09 pm on Feb 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

What the heck happened? After spending the last week watching the update on google it dawned on me I never hear from webmasters any more. I hear from people that think webmastering is ROI and I hear from people that think webmastering is a reserved spot in the serps. But what I donít hear is people breaking the changes apart for the pure joy of understanding.

Google or for that matter any search engine does not rule my world. I am interested in why search engine x does this and how it works so I can break it just because I can. I am interested in how search engine x works because it is interesting.

Search engine x says that my site does not deserve to be in the first spot the hell with search engine x. I will figure out how search engine x works and place my site where it rightly deserves to be and this has nothing to do with ROI.

We use to talk about things worked around here. The technical challenges a search engine faced. How a search engine collected and ranked data and why it worked in a certain way. What tricks worked and more importantly why. Now all I hear is I am buying links from here and I get xx return for every x spent. Yawn.

So where did you all go? I miss you.

 

SlyOldDog




msg:296086
 11:11 am on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>End of story. Nothing else is required.

Ok then, let's close down WebmasterWorld :)

frogboy




msg:296087
 12:43 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

Fair point.

:(

I meant regarding SEO with regard to GAMING, not the other useful and informative forums on this site.

skippy




msg:296088
 2:27 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

google this:http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/2010.htm is all you need.

That thing is three frickin years old.

Excuse me frogboy. That is a good base document that all newbies should read. That is true but there have been huge changes going on since then. Especially since update Florida. If I was a newbie I would rip apart this thread pretty good. There is some good information hinted at.

SlyOldDog




msg:296089
 3:18 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

That post gives you one route to success, but definately not the easiest or the fastest :)

Kirby




msg:296090
 3:46 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

what I donít hear is people breaking the changes apart for the pure joy of understanding.

How about this thread Jake started, Interesting Things I've Been Toying With This Month -
Markov Chains and you...
[webmasterworld.com]?

dcheney




msg:296091
 4:18 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

I can only speak for myself obviously, but I find myself rarely posting here anymore because most of the questions seem to be about how to make more money - and frankly I don't care.

I've got a largish website generated via a database that I've been working on now for most of a decade. The reason I put up the webpage in the first place was to make the information easily available to everyone. I only started messing with AdSense last year - and it makes enough to cover the basic costs of the site which is all I want from it.

So for me, the interest in SEO is not to drive more users to my site to make money off them, but rather to make it easier to find the information my site provides _if_ that is what they are looking for.

While there is much overlap between SEO for those two different focuses, there seems to be very few of the latter on the boards these days.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind someone making money from the web. But for many of us webmasters, that's just not our goal.

skippy




msg:296092
 4:34 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

The reason I put up the webpage in the first place was to make the information easily available to everyone.

Spoken like a true webmaster.

Kirby




msg:296093
 5:12 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

the interest in SEO is not to drive more users to my site to make money off them, but rather to make it easier to find the information my site provides _if_ that is what they are looking for.

Driving visitors to a site is the goal we all share. For some visitors finding the information they are looking for (a room at the Ritz, or a little blue pill) results in someone making money. For others its research (history of the Ritz, or possible side effects of a little blue pill). The purpose of the site and/or what they do when they get to the site is a different issue and one reason there is so much "preaching".

ncgimaker




msg:296094
 8:06 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

Writing as one site who disappeared nearly completely, whats to figure out?

It's not an algo change, there's no special magic to figure, its a blip, a bug, some bug falsely triggered some assumption made by a programmer. They'll improve it over time, either with better code or whitelist/blacklists. Perhaps thats what Criagslist job applications are about, to hire people to check the blacklist and whitelists?

I also think many people misunderstand the nature of SEO (I'm new here but not new to SEO). Its a constrained minimisation problem, you feed data into a black box and into a model, and try to minimise the differences between the two. The model doesn't have to work the same way as the search engine, just return similar results.

You change things, is it better or worse? Change something else, better worse? The algo is the same every time, change something, better? Worse?

paybacksa




msg:296095
 8:47 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

and has a another thread goes off topic.........

DaveN you are needed and appreciated in this seo world...
but a foo thread going OT? C'mon mate.

Hugene




msg:296096
 9:08 pm on Feb 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think the undustry has changed and matured. Google's been around for a while now and it seems people have a good hang of it now, which would explain the decreasing number of interesting posts. And there isoney to be made now, which removes somwehat of the purity and authenticity of the industry.

But still, there are new things around, I say everyone should concentrate on MSN now and crack that nut open too

nuevojefe




msg:296097
 2:48 am on Feb 13, 2005 (gmt 0)


Perhaps this year some MAJOR consideration needs to go into calming some of the noise a bit in certain forums.

I don't personally care what your motivations are for being a webmaster. I'm not that altruistic that I want to always solve things for free and to share with anyone who will listen.

But, I do enjoy creating and solving things, and I enjoy creating revenue from it. I enjoy making clients happy, seeing the web be put to good use for people who previously weren't harnessing its power. And of course I don't mind sharing if it's not going to obliterate my ability to continue using a method that is working, I also don't mind pointing people in the right direction whenever possible.

My point is that no matter what your motivation is we should all be able to discuss things, offer advice and seek more knowledge by piecing together what research and experiences people are able to share.

There are plenty of webmasters, new and veteran, and if many of them learned a bit more about the dynamics of a healthy forum there would be much better discussion and a whole lot less desertion by senior members and such.

[edited by: lawman at 1:25 pm (utc) on Feb. 13, 2005]

Sobriquet




msg:296098
 4:24 am on Feb 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

I guess all we may be looking forward to is a fair, smart, intelligent cometitor to the G. Even better is there were more.
Y and MSN have improved a lot but they stil do not match the popularity of G. But then this is just a last 3 to 4 years story. I am hopeful of anew tide of search engines coming in sometime.

THings change, and so shall this one sided game.

One Hope: Here I see the relevance of MSN recent improvements ( maybe in conjunction with future LongHorn ) that we get somethinging that can push google to a second seat or may be a parallel seat.

Another: Yahoo may spring back with its recent efforts.

One thing that may not happen but i wish it does. DMOZ get commercial. Than can sure turn the tide.

What do you think?

MultiMan




msg:296099
 1:02 pm on Feb 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

I agree with original premise of this thread's original post. I, too, "want my internet back."

The problem is that G$ has become a cult, if you will. They now are "so popular" with the media who are always too far behind the curve of reporting actual reality anyway, that many people still think it is supposedly a SE. It is not. We need more media attention on other SEs who are obviously doing a better job of actually delivering useable SERPs. But the media is not doing that yet. And so much of the deceived masses worship G$.

The reason I say G$ is now a cult rather than a SE is because, to its followers, G$ can do wrong (despite the obvious fact proven over and over again is that G$ can "do only evil"). I also say it because G$ itself steers, manipulates, controls, and plays with every action of its followers, like any mind control cult. It's the very classic definition of a cult syndrome.

It is highly offensive that whenever G$ decides to run an update that then suddenly all the webmasters are forced to jump on a dime and start reacting. (Witness the multi-page threads at WebmasterWorld for every update.) If you have built a good web-site and are the authority of your topic, you should never have to drop everything you are doing just to stay available for the searchers. (Doesn't it make more sense to let webmasters remain dedicated in spending their time more productively in researching or reporting their keyword CONTENT? Of course it does, but this otherwise shows that the G$ lie of "build more content" for high SERP position is a lie indeed when it comes to what G$ really values.) Instead of spending time on more content, the webmasters have to cut their lives short and take new action for every little game G$ tries to play. And if the G$ cult leaders decide they want someone out of their cult, to have no useable SERP position, then there is no way for that site to get back in. If G$ was a real SE, then any honest webmaster could indeed get back in easily. But if it takes more than a year and all the supposed tips still never worked, you know G$ is no longer a SE. Indeed, all the tips that are offered by G$ cult worhsippers would actually work -- but they do not. It's only a cult game.

Add to this the way in which G$ always responds to issues. In any email correspondence, one always gets orwellian doublespeak from G$. They almost always fail to solve your problem but they instead tell you how great they are and thank you for being helpful, even though their failure to really help shows they really do not care at all. Sounds like any cult leader speaking, brainwashing their followers and leaving those who do not follow to instead be pushed out.

So the brainwashed drones go on and on about how "good" G$ is, even though the SERPs show it is utterly useless. That can only happen with mind control -- the way cults work.

That's why I have long suspected this last year that G$ might not really be seeking to be a SE anyway, but rather their supposed PhD's are simply using all their tactics and technologies to instead play a little elitist sociological game/experiment/research/whatever to see how easily people will follow a cult even when they are not getting anything for it. Whenever G$ chooses, how many people can they make bark like a dog or do whatever other foolish things that G$ sadistically wants them to do?

This then gives new insight into what G$ really means when they profess that they only seek to collect "all the information" of the internet. It is not for benign storage purposes, but for Orwellian control. They want total control.

As Orwell's book, 1984, explained, "He who controls the information, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future."

Beware the G$ cult.

So, absolutely, I agree with this thread. As an honest webmaster, I, too, "want my internet back."

john316




msg:296100
 3:12 pm on Feb 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

Neccesity is the mother of invention:

drop this into your htaccess deny file:

RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} ^.*Googlebot.*$ [OR]

And get busy, you might be surprised at how much you can "take back" when you stop fretting about an SE.

tedster




msg:296101
 3:29 pm on Feb 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

One thing that may not happen but i wish it does. DMOZ get commercial. Than can sure turn the tide.

Either that or DMOZ just gets more efficient - and maybe it would take a commercial goose to make that happen across the directory. No doubt a strong DMOZ could form the base for a bit of a shift.

Let's face it, there will not be a return to simple search algos that are easy to bust. The changes we've see are accompanied by a flood of consumers who are willing to SPEND on the web (even my 85 year old Mom - who once was terrified of the idea).

Search has changed because e-commerce has been embraced by the general population. The two things happened together as a unified field. It will cotinue to evolve, but it will not go back to the old days.

lawman




msg:296102
 4:01 pm on Feb 13, 2005 (gmt 0)

This is not a thread about anyone in particular. If it were, I would have moved it to the appropriate forum in the first place.

Please don't use the original topic (yes we need to stay on topic even in Foo) to single out a sole boogey man as the cause of all that is wrong with the internet.

As a reminder, the original topic can be found in paragraph 4 of the original post:

We use to talk about things worked around here. The technical challenges a search engine faced. How a search engine collected and ranked data and why it worked in a certain way. What tricks worked and more importantly why. Now all I hear is I am buying links from here and I get xx return for every x spent.

One of the basic tenents of Foo is that it is a Google-free zone. Please keep it that way.

Marcia




msg:296103
 3:49 am on Feb 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

We use to talk about things worked around here. The technical challenges a search engine faced. How a search engine collected and ranked data and why it worked in a certain way. What tricks worked and more importantly why. Now all I hear is I am buying links from here and I get xx return for every x spent.

Well, the buying and selling, trading and begging for links are part of the industry now, whether we like it or not. BUT I think what this thread is getting at is

"We used to talk about how things worked"
"How a search engine collected and ranked data"
"Why it worked in a certain way"
"What worked and more importantly why"

That's why I "hang around" forums where SEO is discussed. I've always loved the what's, why's and how's and still do, to this day.

There may not be a "corporate" or "collective" interest in sharing "publicly" at that level any more, but there most certainly ARE individuals around who ARE still interested and who DO engage in such discussions - publicly.

So what it amounts to is that the ones who have taken it all "private" - if they're still availing themselves of what's being posted publicly, by the few out there who are still willing to share publicly, taking but not giving in return, then they've begun engaging in parasitic behavior just as much as those they're trying to keep their own gold nuggets from publicly.

It doesn't take too many people to make for a good discussion - as long as noise doesn't drown it out, and as long as it's not perverted by ego-driven arrogance and political shenanigans. So - the challenge is to hunt down those individuals and congregate and communicate with them. Which is exactly what I've started to do.

PhraSEOlogy




msg:296104
 5:38 am on Feb 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

as long as noise doesn't drown it out, and as long as it's not perverted by ego-driven arrogance and political shenanigans

Well that rules out quite a lot...

I still find lots of very helpful people here - not so much in the SEO areana but in the tech forums like Perl and Apache I have had some sterling assistance from folks here. I guess some of the old (SEO) tid-bits and gold nuggets are not to be found as regularly. But I still think there are a lot of great webmasters around here and they tend to keep quiet until someone needs a hand and then they give help/advice freely.

Personally, I am still trying to figure out the (SEO) gold nuggets from the fools gold!

Artstart




msg:296105
 3:44 pm on Feb 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

To me there are just too many people around here these days. I'd love to share my skills with a group of interest, but not with a seo horde....plus it seems most people hate spammers, I mean ones that can do something and get away with what others can't....

shigamoto




msg:296106
 7:08 am on Feb 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

I totally agree, being a webmaster today is more submitting to search engines, making google happy and paying for this and that link.

However there is always opportunities for new thinking and innovation as in any other business. What I love with this industry is that anyone can show their innovations.

Also it's a very changing industry that hasn't been around that long. Who would have thought that AltaVista would be a second rated search engine a couple of years back? Maybe the same thing will happen with Google?

DaveN




msg:296107
 12:16 pm on Feb 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

paybacksa it's not that it's a foo thread it's any thread OT posting is the downfall of any forum .. yer and I agree that Foo should be just a boiler room for any discussions that members want to discuss but I but my point is there are 3 things that stop discussions

1) Ego's when 2 members just want to disagree with each other, so the newbies get confused and have to pick a side ...

2) off topics post that pull a discussion into a whole another area and there are professionals that do this just to keep information from floating to the surface... I used always say that guestbook spamming didn't work ;)

3) SE rep's giving almost information which people then take as the truth and will argue the point till the end! example rel=no follow will be the end of blog spam... the spammers will decided when blog spamming is over and NO one else!

skippy wanted to this internet back i was giving him a reason why he lost it..

imo the main reason why he lost it is evolution when a forum gets too big the noise gets too great and the good stuff gets lost

DaveN

Brett_Tabke




msg:296108
 5:43 pm on Feb 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

Webmaster is a very broad and hard to define term.

> think webmastering is ROI

You bet that is part of it to commercial site webmasters.

> webmastering is a reserved spot in the serps.

A righeteous sense of entitlement does indeed pervade cyberspace. Welcome to the maturing age of the freebie 1.

> is people breaking the changes apart
> for the pure joy of understanding.

When have we ever heard that?

> So where did you all go? I miss you.

First, SE's are vastly more complex today than they were 5 years ago. Even just a few years ago, I could run an algo cracker and pop out the algo for AllTheWeb in about 20 hrs of spidering.
Today you will not be able to do that. Today, you have to run backlink analyzers and regression analysis.

> I am buying links from here

aka: CheckbookSEO.


1 note, a small $500 s&h fee may apply.

SlyOldDog




msg:296109
 8:30 pm on Feb 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>Today, you have to run backlink analyzers and regression analysis.

Do you need regression analysis to know that more links = better positions?

Anyhow regression is only as good as the inputs. So you're still guessing anyhow.

Macro




msg:296110
 5:33 pm on Feb 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

I want my internet back dammit

skippy, there you go! [webmasterworld.com]. :)

Now the trick is to work out how threads like that don't get messed up with the "Man, Google sux" posts.

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