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Revenge by click fraud - what to do?
qbert

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 12:11 pm on May 12, 2005 (gmt 0)

One of my websites is a site on religion with a forum. I guess someone got angry, and now he says that he is going to use some plug in (?) for firefox to click ads on my site over and over again. After I told him that I would just ban his ip, he said the plug in will let him use a different ip all the time. is this true? am I going to have to remove the ads just to prevent this?

 

ArtistMike



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 4:08 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think the last week of every month is a good start. I hope others will do the same.

==============

By the way you have worded your reply I would make the guess that even you have not reached your own personal "critical mass" point. I base that guess on the way you have worded your above statement. If you had reached your own personal "critical mass" point, you would do more than "hope others do the same"... you would take the steps necessary to help others to organize into a powerful force, but you are not doing that, now are you. You are still at the point of "hoping" that others will "do the same".

thvi

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 4:50 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hello Artist Mike and alika,

Thanks for your replies. Mike, you're quite wrong. I wont be showing ads during that week.

I think this discussion is a great way to let others know that such sentiments such as the ones I've expressed and quoted from others are broadly held.

alika you wrote
Critical mass? Because of a few disgruntled posts? Remember, those who have an axe to grind are the ones who are the most vocal in this forum.

What you fail to realize is that these are not a few disgruntled posts that are grinding axes. These are, heretofore work-a-day webmasters who come, sometimes staggering, into the forum trying to understand what they can do. Only then does a chorus of people answer: change your company name, register a new site, write apology letters begging for mercy....check your webstats every hour every day, build in geo-tracking, use i-frames with php....

It is absurd. That these publishers fall by the wayside and are replaced each week with more of the same only illustrates further the prevalence of this kind of treatment and how easily websites are targeted. Google CAN fix the system.

Instead, they foist all of the responsibility on we who provide the content, paying publishers pennies on the BILLIONS they make, and then refusing to modify the MANIFEST holes in the code code or offer publishers any options. They CAN AFFORD to revise this. They revised the system for AdWords users because AdWords users spoke up.

You are quite right that if I choose not to show ads for that week, another will be right behind me to help support Google. But... if we ALL, even for one DAY, say to Google we MUST have a system that is less gameable or options to protect publishers, Google will respond.

Google is not my benefactor. Google is my business partner. When Google sees fit to drop a nice check in my mailbox every month for no reason other than that they like me, then we can talk about them being my benefactor. Until that happy day arrives, though, I have to create, maintain, and promote a web site, a process that looks suspiciously like business to me.

I might be a little more inclined to be grateful if AdSense were a Google-run charity. According to their annual reports, they're a little beyond the nonprofit stage.

“Where's the logic? Where does this self-righteous rage come from?”

Bad business practice on Google's end? A degree of obfuscation and caprice that no one would tolerate if Google weren't so big as to practically constitute a monopoly? A general belief that Google and its publishers have a professional relationship, and professional relationships shouldn't involve gag orders, hiding vital information, or kicking people out of the program without explanation or recourse?

I wish I knew other people it had happened to because then we could start a support group...
it is a special kind of anxiety that plagues me heavily still...
For instance while inside my adsense account, checking my stats, every single link that i click gives my a teeny tiny little heart attack becasue the association of "clicking" and "adsense" and having no idea what happened in the first place triggers some kind of internal fear mechanism. The same thing often happens when clicking "adsense" titled threads around here...
Maybe I should use my adsense checks to seek professional help. hehe.

alika

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 7:17 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Do what you have to do thvi, and we will do what we have to do. We are here to earn money, and we will continue to do just that. Other than your loss of income, you can come back and report to us what was the result of your "critical mass" action (Will Google quake in their knees?)

thvi

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 7:37 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hello alika,

Thanks for your reply. I wouldn’t presume to speak for others and I am surprised that you do.

You are happy with a very poor deal, and an indefensible one. Your site is just as vulnerable as are all of ours. Google is shafting you.

Search the terms "dreaded letter" on Webmasterworld and see what I mean. Watch the forum this week. Is your site next? You will continue to earn money only as long as Google tells you can. Until they turn off your account, and retroactively take your earnings without explanation or appeal, while using your content right up to the last minute and earning a billion dollars in the process. And that is ridiculous.

[edited by: thvi at 7:47 am (utc) on May 15, 2005]

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 7:46 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Google is the light, thou shalt not click against Google.

Click not unto others before thy site is clicketh

He who clicketh on my links clicketh trash.

Yea verily the road to payments is narrow, do not click off the path to wealthiness.

More pearls of wisdom after I open my fortune cookies....

alika

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 9:26 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

I wouldn’t presume to speak for others and I am surprised that you do.

Hmmm ... after claiming that you have reached critical mass you say that you do not presume to speak for others?

thvi

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 10:13 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hello alika,

Thanks for your reply. yes. You wrote:

...after claiming that you have reached critical mass you say that you do not presume to speak for others?

Yes that's right, because your characterization of my position is entirely wrong. I referenced the independent opinions of others and my own opinions and said I hope that, through the discussion, critical mass had been reached. I never said I spoke FOR them. But, I am very confident that to most reasonable people what we are saying is quite true.

Your reply gives me the opportunity to make mention something to you about a remark you made earlier. In writing about what your group plans to do, you said:
Other than your loss of income, you can come back and report to us what was the result of your "critical mass" action (Will Google quake in their knees?)

You are supporting an agreement that is CLEARLY written to the detriment of publishers. Regarding the actors and writers in Hollywood:

"Economists have estimated that a full-scale shutdown of film and TV production would cost the Los Angeles economy more than $250 million a week."

What would one week of having no publishers cost Google? Your site can be shut down tomorrow. Do you think the writers in Hollywood would accept the kind of arrangement you are embracing? What about baseball players? Why are you willing to accept it? You are being played.

And from the BBC:

"A strike by writers would have paralysed the television and motion picture industry and cost Los Angeles hundreds of millions of dollars."

302s, Revenge clicks, grabbing a publisher's code and displaying it on another's site... there are MANIFOLD GLARING deficiencies in the system. NO OTHER content producers allow their work to be retroactively devalued without appeal, while the distributors get to use the work right up to the end, and are earning BILLIONS of dollars doing it. Why are you WHEN TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS AND ALTERNATIVES EXIST? Ask for them.

Google is not my benefactor. Google is my business partner. When Google sees fit to drop a nice check in my mailbox every month for no reason other than that they like me, then we can talk about them being my benefactor. Until that happy day arrives, though, I have to create, maintain, and promote a web site, a process that looks suspiciously like business to me.

I might be a little more inclined to be grateful if AdSense were a Google-run charity. According to their annual reports, they're a little beyond the nonprofit stage.

“Where's the logic? Where does this self-righteous rage come from?”

Bad business practice on Google's end? A degree of obfuscation and caprice that no one would tolerate if Google weren't so big as to practically constitute a monopoly? A general belief that Google and its publishers have a professional relationship, and professional relationships shouldn't involve gag orders, hiding vital information, or kicking people out of the program without explanation or recourse?


sailorjwd

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 10:30 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

I can't take it anymore. I'm going back to fondeling my google stats then going to ebay to get a virgin to sacrifice to Google gods.

twist

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 10:52 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

One of my websites is a site on religion with a forum. I guess someone got angry, and now he says that he is going to use some plug in (?) for firefox to click ads on my site over and over again. After I told him that I would just ban his ip, he said the plug in will let him use a different ip all the time. is this true? am I going to have to remove the ads just to prevent this?

Its been awhile since i've messed around with using proxies but unless things have changed drastically free ones are heavily used and quite slow and the alternative of paying to use a proxy will still limit the number of potential IP address's.

Scenerio 1 -

He pays for a proxy service but has to reuse IP's constantly, which you can just ban as he goes, or you just ban the IP range of the pay proxy service he is using.

Scenerio 2 -

He uses thousands of free proxy servers to administer his attack and each carries an unique IP. The only way google would know that all these new hits were coming from thousands of proxy servers would be if google already had a list of these thousands of proxy servers. If they did have a list they probably aren't excepting clicks from them anyway.

Scenerio 3 -

He uses thousands of free proxy servers to administer his attack and each carries an unique IP. Google sees a bunch of unique IP's clicking from your site. Maybe you got slash dotted. Who knows. I doubt they ban every site that has a moment of popularity. Maybe your site talks about "widget month" and it just happens to be "widget month".

Scenerio 4 -

Your getting thousands of unique IP click throughs that even google can't seem to figure out are coming from proxies. Publishers are starting to request their ads not be shown on your site. Instead of fretting, go sign up to some type of ad service that pays by impression and place a few impression ads on your pages. Now when the guy is using his script to nail your site you will start making money of the impression ads. If google can't tell the difference between a valid click and a fraudulent click then most likely neither can the company selling the impression ads. Either way, you win.

------

Besides all that, if you use Apache you may want to go over to the webmasterworld apache forum and ask about possible ways of preventing these problems.

ncw164x

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 11:09 am on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hello thvi

I think you are missing one very important point with your comment

"What would one week of having no publishers cost Google?"

Adwords advertisers can choose to either show their ads on just the google search results or the option to place a tick in a box and have the ads show on the publisher network of sites, adsense publishers then choosing not to have any adsense code on their site for a week would mean these same ads what we se on our sites would just be shown on the google search results

Google is not loosing anything, its just the publisher who is loosing out on their weekly earnings, not only that it would take me 1 - 2 days to remove the adsense code from all my sites and the same to replace it, I have no intention of making myself busy doing all this work for nothing and especially when my earning would go to zero for that week.

If you recall we had this same discussion on another thread a couple of weeks ago and I feel you are flogging a dead horse trying to get a mass of publishers on your side to have a boycott of showing adsense on our sites for a week

please note no animals were harmed in the making of that last comment, it was already dead

thvi

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6677 posted 3:25 pm on May 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hello ncw164x,

Thanks for your reply. Actually, I think the opposite is true. AdWords customers purchase their words becaue the contextual experience reiterates the company's brand on page after page in a preferred environment. The search results are a once a time show. AdWords purchasers would feel a turndown in results, and in fact prices would likely go up for them, as there would be fewer adwords impressions to buy.

The net effect of this would be to make AdWords more expensive and less effective. Google would feel this. They have shown that they are responsive to AdWords customers.

The reason I was drawn to this post, is that just last week we discussed a similar situation in “I was kicked out because of click fraud”. Now this week we had a publisher who’s site was being targeted by a user who TOLD the publisher: “I’m gonna make you lose AdSense through fraud.”, hence the title of this thread: “Revenge by click fraud - what to do?”. And, within less than 48 hours we saw “google disable my account. i didnt break any rules” added. Wait until the same revenge person targets YOUR site. What if you are out to dinner that night?

Add that to the knowledge that Google doesn't CARE if it happens, as the weaknesses in their code shows and their insistence on a one size fits all sytem shows. You may think it is a dead horse, but look at the replies to this thread. Look at the regular recurrence of this issue here. It may be just that the horse hasn't died close enough to you, yet.

The arrangement Google offers you is written entirely to your detriment. You have no rights, and that’s wrong. But what is UTTERLY wrong is that people accept it when, with VERY MINIMAL pressure, we could get a system that offers greater protection and options. Google earns BILLIONS from your work. They can afford to make changes. As it seems GoogleGuy is unmoved by the steady bemoaning one finds here of [“the dreaded letter” + no form of recourse], the ONLY way they will do so is when we do what AdWords purchasers did: threaten to go elsewhere.

I’m wondering if there isn’t someway to show only PSAs for a week, or even just a day. That would be a good way for us to “Do no evil.” while forcing a hiccup in their spigot of profits (sure Google would earn some money, but it is likely to be a fair factor less from those PSA clicks). Profits which are derived, again, from our work. Work which deserves protection. Of this they should be reminded, and to this we deserve no less.

This 71 message thread spans 3 pages: < < 71 ( 1 2 [3]
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