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This 46 message thread spans 2 pages: 46 ( [1] 2 > >     
Adsense pays less on referrals from Yahoo
could this be true?
dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 2:00 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Banging my head against the wall lately trying to figure out why EPC keeps dropping on the same advertisors .

The latest thing that happend was I had a small 10 page website that only a trickle of traffic but each click was worth over $x on the main keyword search term.

Well this past week on Yahoo's update this main page moved up to rank 3 on Yahoo (and a surge of traffic and clicks) but still low on Google (where what traffic the page was getting was coming from).

Same advertisors , the page found for the same keyword search ... and poof EPC drops to pennies ..

Could it be that adsense algo pays higher for referrals from G and lower for oter engines?

Or have I just caused some brain damage from bangingmy head against the wall? ;)

 

MrAnchovy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 2:48 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Could it be that adsense algo pays higher for referrals from G and lower for oter engines?

No, AdSense has no clue where your visitors came from... aside from possibly cross-referencing those who came from Google itself.

dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 3:05 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

MrAnchoy , are you certain about that? I would think orign of referral would be standard.

I know where my referrals are coming from , I know where I am sending my visitors too (adsense preview) but yet G dosent know where I got the visitor in the first place? Umm unlikely

Could be true but I just have a hard time believing that cant track that ..and if they can track it it would seem reasonalble they could then assign specific $value to clciks from specific referals , a different click$value purchased traffic , a different click $value for referral traffic from Yahoo , a different referal value for traffic from Alta vista etc..

MrAnchovy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 3:26 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

I know where my referrals are coming from , I know where I am sending my visitors too (adsense preview) but yet G dosent know where I got the visitor in the first place? Umm unlikely

From AdSense's point-of-view, your site is the referering URL.

When the visitor goes from SiteA to your site, the browser passes SiteA as the referring URL, when AdSense is called for on your page, the browser sends your page as the referring URL.

Yes, you know where your visitors came from, but do you know where they were before that?

This has been covered before in previous threads... with the current AdSense script it is impossible from Google to know how the visitor got to your site unless you provide that info.

[edited by: MrAnchovy at 3:34 pm (utc) on April 8, 2005]

wrightee

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 3:27 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

I thought that was part of the mystery that is Smart P.. traffic coming from the-world's-most-respected-widget-site is somehow more valid than traffic coming from a1-widget-link-farm-widget-links-free-widget-info?

But.. I couldn't imagine they'd pay less per click from yahoo, would they...

Personally I'm working on a theory connecting daily changes in Atlantic sea currents to my EPC, starting with the obvious stuff.

dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 3:34 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Personally I'm working on a theory connecting daily changes in Atlantic sea currents to my EPC, starting with the obvious stuff.

I can save you some time ..already tested that theory and debunked it ;)

MarkHutch

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 3:39 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just a guess; your new traffic has not been converting well and you lost some of the original advertisers that paid well or some of the advertisers cut back their budget or turned off content advertising.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 3:47 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'll vote on the site that Google knows exactly where the ad referral originated from as they get the referral when their javascript is run.

Now examine the link from a google ad to their server:

gead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=<SNIP HUGE AUTH STRING>
&num=1&adurl=http://www.exampledomain.com&client=ca-pub-whatever

I'll hazard a guess that mile long authorization string ties the ad back to the original request and the referral as well.

I know ecommerce software tracking systems do this to figure out what referrals generate the best ROI, so why wouldn't Google?

Makes perfect sense.

dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:01 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'll hazard a guess that mile long authorization string ties the ad back to the original request and the referral as well.

I agree Incredibill .. so the question is ..if they do know where the referral is from then we know they COULD assign differnt $values from different types of referrals ..but would they?

and what would they gain by doing so?

MrAnchovy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:03 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'll hazard a guess that mile long authorization string ties the ad back to the original request and the referral as well.

Again, it's impossible (as written).... and again, it's been covered before.

When the browser requests your page it passes along the referring URL. Javascript has absolutely no access to that referring URL unless it's specifically fed that information by you willingly.

If what you guys belive to be true is infact true... then we would not only have the ability to know our site's referrers, but also the referring URL prior to that. It's just not possible unless you scepfically provide that information to the javascript code like you do with colors, borders, ad sizes, etc.

Since Google doesn't have click tracking on their SERPs, they don't even know if that visitor came from their own site (they could make some high percentage guess based on the search & that the user is now requesting AdSense ads on your site... but they don't know for absolute certainty).

[edited by: MrAnchovy at 4:07 pm (utc) on April 8, 2005]

RoadRash

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:04 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Run some A-B testing, assign yahoo referrals a yahoo channel, and google referrals a google channel, heck, track MSN too! Give it a week, and compare EPC numbers.

BTW, My yahoo traffic CTR is 43% higher then my google traffic CTR. Not sure why that is, but Yahoo visitors CLICK :)

PatrickDeese

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:07 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

> No, AdSense has no clue where your visitors came from...

I am with incredbill on this one - I think they very much are aware, and in fact I have pretty credible evidence that suggests that the ads change according to the referral string, so if you start getting a lot of traffic for a lesser value term - you might find that your overall EPC drops - no matter which search engine sends you traffic.

dvduval

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:11 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have 2 sites that cover the same topics. One gets almost all referrals from Yahoo. The pay per click is slightly better on the site with the Yahoo referrals.

MrAnchovy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:12 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

OK, here's a challenge:

- Do exactly like Google does...

- With javascript, establish the following variables:
google_ad_client = "";
google_ad_width = ;
google_ad_height = ;
google_ad_format = "";
google_ad_channel ="";
google_color_border = "";
google_color_bg = "";
google_color_link = "";
google_color_url = "";
google_color_text = "";
(and no, you can't populate on of those fields with the referring URL)

- Call for an external javascript file... passing the above variables to it.

- Place the above code on SiteA (not your site)

- Place the external js. file on your server.

- Write up anything your please on the javascript file on your server... it's free game here for you to include anything you please.

- Figure out SiteA's referring URL. I'll give ya $100 if you succeed.

To expand on previous posts... the external file located on your server will be given SiteA as the referring URL. The only way for it to know SiteA's referring URL was if that info was passed to it via the above variables.
You could gladly add a"google_page_referer" variable & pass the referring URL to that external javascript file yourself, but as the code is written, there is no way for Google to obtain it on their own without your help.

[edited by: MrAnchovy at 5:03 pm (utc) on April 8, 2005]

dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:15 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

if you start getting a lot of traffic for a lesser value term - you might find that your overall EPC drops - no matter which search engine sends you traffic.

Thanks Patrick I understand that and even agree with G on this.. and that may be the issue on oone of my larger site with thousands of visitors everyday .. sometimeswith SE flux the lower paying search terms (pages) rank higher and my EPC drops.. I can understand and appreciate that.

Problem with this little website is ....the only thing that changed is an increase in traffic from YAhoo...the main webpage that was being paid x$ EPC for strong keyword is now being paid cents for the same strong keyword search to the same page with the same advertisors..nothing has changed except where the majorit of visitors arrived from ..Yahoo

It was hard to see on my big site but easy to see on the small site.. is it a valid possiblity?

[edited by: dauction at 4:16 pm (utc) on April 8, 2005]

jomaxx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:16 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Google cannot see the Yahoo page from the referrer field. The referrer contains the page on which the AdSense code is located.

Someone suggested recently that the Javascript code COULD theoretically make a note of the referring page. That code can be plainly viewed and there is indeed a bit of processing related to the document.referrer, which seems to be related to the way AdSense can be embedded in framed sites, but it could conceivably allow Google to track the original referring page.

The main point is that it's not necessary to guess or theorize. This is testable. It would take about 15 minutes to load a mock AdSense frame and see what information gets passed through.

MrAnchovy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:24 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

This is testable. It would take about 15 minutes to load a mock AdSense frame and see what information gets passed through.

Which has been done somewhat recently by linear:

In this thread [webmasterworld.com], message #11, I analyzed what gets sent to Google on an ad request, and strolled through the javascript code for additional details, should that interest you.

As far as I can tell, they can't tell the referrer of the page with the ad, although they *do* get the length of the click trail in the form of history.length.


incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:40 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Again, it's impossible (as written).... and again, it's been covered before.

I must defer to MrAnchovy, no matter how fishy he may be :)

I just did a quick dig thru the JS source on the Google side and it doesn't seem to be tracking the original referer, which is a huge loss of data for Google not to know. Sad really.

suzyvirtual

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:50 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Im no technical person, so I don't know whether google can track referrer. But, if google were to change the CPC for different referrers, don't you think they would pay MORE for yahoo traffic. Think about it, somebody who already searched on google, already saw some adwords, and is then being moved to your page, where they see some more adwords. They are already in the "net" that is google. When you snare a yahoo user, and insert them into the google net (by alluring them with your adsense ads), it seems that you have helped google more than when you recycle people who started at google in the first place...

webjefe

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:52 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

BTW, My yahoo traffic CTR is 43% higher then my google traffic CTR. Not sure why that is, but Yahoo visitors CLICK

I've also noticed a higher CTR on Yahoo! for a long time.

My theory has been that Google traffic has already been exposed to the AdWords ads on the Google search page. Yahoo searchers are seeing the ads for the first time.

Added: (suzyvirtual is a faster typer than I am!)

[edited by: webjefe at 4:59 pm (utc) on April 8, 2005]

dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 4:54 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

But, if google were to change the CPC for different referrers, don't you think they would pay MORE for yahoo traffic.

Thats why I am asking...why would they do it? what would they gain?
thats why I am asking because I dont see how it would be advantageos to them but it is clear as soon as Yahoo started sending the domain traffic EPC plummeted ..just looking at all possiblities

Thanks everyone.. I'll go back to banging my head against the wall ;)

frox

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 5:21 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

referrer tracking via external javascript is possible...

this goes on domain www.a.com:

<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<script>
document.write('Domain A sees ', document.referrer);
</script>
<br>
<script type="text/javascript"
src="http://www.b.com/refer.js">
</script>
</html>

this goes on www.b.com/refer.js

document.write('Domain B sees ', document.referrer);

You see exactly the same referrer!

NOTE A:
syntax for documet.referrer is IE-specific, so with another browser the syntax would be different.

NOTE B:
Wasn't there someone promising 50$ for this? :-)

NOTE C:
Im' not saying it is actually done by G, just that it can be done!

NOTE D:
PM me to have the URL of a live version. Only I will be away for abt 1 hour, so don't expect a FAST response!

PatrickDeese

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 6:44 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Look at the adsense ad source code - the inline frame source code, not the code on your page. You should see this:

<img border=0 align=right height=13 width=13 src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/'+nw+'_new_ico.gif" alt=""/>

An image gets loaded - that means they can track all the referrals they want.

dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 6:47 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

So it is possbile?

ogletree

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ogletree us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 6:50 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

It is possible but from experience they do not. I have sites that have been banned from Google so the only traffic I get is from Yahoo. There is no difference between before the ban except just fewer page views.

frox

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 6:50 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Other notes pertainingto my example:

1) You will have to make anther page to call the first page, otherwise the refeerrer will be empty:

a.html has a link to b.html

b.html calls refer.js

2) I know there is quite e difference between the referrer the javascript sees and the referrer in the HTTP request for the javascript.

The fact is, the Adsense javascript
( [pagead2.g...] o o g l e s y n d i c a t i o n.com/pagead/show_ads.js )
contains operations that make me think of a javascript that reads document.referrer, operates on it and then calls another Javascript passing the old referrer

Line 278: Get the current referrer
google_referrer_url = document.referrer;

Line 181: append the referrer to the second javascript's URL
google_append_url_esc('ref', w.google_referrer_url);

line 190: Call the second Javascript
document.write('<scr' + 'ipt language="JavaScript1.1"' +
' src=' + quoted(google_ad_url) +
'></scr' + 'ipt>');

Alternatively (Line 197) loads an iframe with the same URL containing your referrer
document.write('<ifr' + 'ame' +
' name="google_ads_frame"' +
' width=' + quoted(w.google_ad_width) +
' height=' + quoted(w.google_ad_height) +
' frameborder=' + quoted(w.google_ad_frameborder) +
' src=' + quoted(w.google_ad_url) +

So, I DO think Google knows your referrers!

[edited by: frox at 7:06 pm (utc) on April 8, 2005]

frox

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 7:00 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Got a few questions in PM, am replying here..

To sum it up:

1) your html has a referrer
2) your html incorporates the adsense javascript, that sees the referrer
3) the adsense javascript reads the referrer and then
4) calls another javascript at [pagead2.g...] o o g l e s y n d i c a t i o n.com/pagead/ads (see line 115) passing (between other info the referrer)

So there is no doubt: Google is collecting your referrers, and if they collect them they will certainly do something with it :-)

For a simple example, having the referrers of your page is a STRONG tool to analyze click frauds, as the referrers of valid clicks will certainly have some characteristics that fraudulent clicks do not have :-)

dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 7:21 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

It is possible but from experience they do not. I have sites that have been banned from Google so the only traffic I get is from Yahoo. There is no difference between before the ban except just fewer page views

This dosent have to be a blanket association.. they could do it for say ... certain keywords?

Still that leaves what could gain by doing this?

So yes it probably isnt anything to do with where ther traffic is coming from .. just checking all the nooks and crannies

asp4bunnies

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 7:30 pm on Apr 8, 2005 (gmt 0)

Mr. Anchovy, Javascript can capture referral information from code embedded on another domain. I have a tracking site that does exactly that for web traffic on other people's sites.

So Google can definitely see where your visitors are coming from. Whether or not they use it is a different question.

MrAnchovy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 6049 posted 6:18 am on Apr 9, 2005 (gmt 0)

NOTE B:
Wasn't there someone promising 50$ for this? :-)

NOTE C:
Im' not saying it is actually done by G, just that it can be done!


B - Yes... but must be done with what Google is working with
C - Yes, it can be done, but is impossible as Google has written the script. Sometime in the future they could alter it to capture your referring URL... but they havent done so.

2) your html incorporates the adsense javascript, that sees the referrer
---
So there is no doubt: Google is collecting your referrers

2) Your HTM can incorporate the referrer into a javascript variable... but it does not
So all Google is seeing is your page as the referring URL
The script would have to populate a variable field & pass that onto the external javascript file... exactly like we populate field with colors, borders, ad sizes, etc.

Mr. Anchovy, Javascript can capture referral information from code embedded on another domain. I have a tracking site that does exactly that for web traffic on other people's sites.

So Google can definitely see where your visitors are coming from. Whether or not they use it is a different question.


I agree it's possible.... just impossible as Google has written the script.
As stated above, Sometime in the future they could alter it to capture your referring URL... but they havent done so.

This 46 message thread spans 2 pages: 46 ( [1] 2 > >
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