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This 352 message thread spans 12 pages: < < 352 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 > >     
Why does Google AdSense sponsor "scraper" spam sites
zeus

WebmasterWorld Senior Member zeus us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 11:17 pm on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

I remember when I signed up for google adsense I was a little nervous how professionel a site must be to be accepted, but I did not have any troubles.

I hope we agree on that site full of links/google search results is a pure spam site, if so, WHY does google adsense sponsor such sites, there are 10000 sites like that which a sponsored by adsense, dont they want good search results any more, be cause the more they support those site, more there will be in the serps.

I refuse to beleive that its just because of the money.

 

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 8:02 am on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

ipoem,

Although I still don't know your URL, based on your sticky mail and having re-read your posts with a calmer head, I think that you probably do not belong in the scraper category.

It's just that you mossied in on a high-tension, trigger-happy thread that could give Sam Peckinpah a run for his money.

Although I am new here myself, I believe that WebmasterWorld edicate compels me to say, "Welcome to Webmaster World, ipoem."

That being said, if you contract with G to use their service, you got a leg up on folks like scraperrob (but of course, I've said that umpteen times already). And if you're doing your own spidering, then that shows some real initiative.

And as long as you aren't attempting to devalue sites under the cloak of helping them, and give folks a chance to be removed from your DB on request, then more power to you. Feel free to rank above me for any search term I persue, if you deserve it.

My biggest concern is not ruling all the SERPS. I'm just a simple SOB who wants to make a living and actually enjoys seeing some school kid make good with a little help from me. So all I really want is to appear somewhere near the top of SERPs where my sites are relevant, and not have G get my site mixed up with some really disturbing porno because of weird 302 and metarefresh links.

You can see how that could tend to prey on one's mind, can't you?

ipoem

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 8:06 am on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

of course.

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 8:17 am on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

ipoem,

I have threatened DMCA action a few times and the folks in question complied with my request.

And that was that.

Again, I think that you have made a mistake in assuming that the good posters here have something against legit directory sites.

By the time you showed up my brain was pretty well fried and I admit that I just started blasting away when you appeared to be just another scraperrob surrogate.

But if you read my posts from earlier in the day when I was a bit more coherent, you will see that I have a problem with those who 1) abuse SE TOS to scrape KW rich content for no other reason that to outrank the sites contained in the stolen SERPs and 2) those who mislead searchers by linking their ads to my snippets. I had been quite clear on these points, and when you started challenging the premise of this thread --even though you do not, in fact, seem to be persuing these questionable practises -- you set me off.

I really don't know what else to say to you. Go! Make much money! Rule the Universe with your superior algorithm, already!

Just don't tell me that scraperrob is a righteous dude, cuz, baby, he ain't.

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 12:30 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

ipoem wrote
sticky me your email address and you will have your wish. I also took The Contractor up on his offer - but I am asking $5000. I have no fear.

My search engine is home grown, and with over 10.5 million urls in the database I probably have links to your web site(s).

You already stated your site is not a scraper site....what am I missing? If your site does not fall under the definition of a scraper site (which I think we all know what that is, right?)...well geez, I may as well take my offer to CNN.com. That offer is for the scrapers that are putting up the generated pages that look like a 10 year old did them. I didn't even know they were as prevalent as they are since I don't see them in the top 500 results in about 7-10 niches I look at.

ipoem wrote
If it is such a clear cut problem, where are the lawsuits. And it is easy for Blend27 to say he had "scraper" sites banned. Anyone can say it - but where is the proof? There are too many variables that can cause a site to lose ranking or be dropped.

Did anyone file at all? Did anyone find any case law that applies? Your claims are gutless, and any thinking person would see there is much more bravado being spread on your side than hard facts.

I have seen, been shown by others, and talk enough with some prominent members of this board/forum to know that it has been done and is continuing to be done on a daily basis (AdSense dropped and removal from Google SE).

ipoem wrote
Give me one lawsuit, one case where anyone was successfully sued for putting snippets from someone else's web site on their own site.

Well, geez.. I can't give you the documentation that my neighbor sued successfully last year for someone driving a car through his yard – destroying his yard and several shrubs…but it did happen.

You are missing the point, there doesn't need to be a lawsuit. Look at the DMCA laws and yes, also the copyright laws (especially the part about intent and if the offender is doing it to profit). You simply have the offending site removed from Google or any other search engine via DMCA (this also works with AdSense via email support). If you take away the traffic and income from these sites by getting them removed and the AdSense removed, the sites will basically be non-existent.

HughMungus wrote
My point (again) is that you can't use the "search engine good, scraper bad" argument because search engines showing snippets (as scraper sites do) is not always good for some types of sites and that it's hypocritical to complain about scrapers without complaining about search engines. In other words, if you put the information out there, you have to expect that others are going to use it in ways that you don't want (and I don't mean wholesale copying of sites; I mean snippets). If "fair use" applies to search engines, it also applies to scraper sites.

No, see that is where you are right, yet wrong at the same time (if that makes sense).

Google and other search engines provide tools for removal of a page, domain, or obey directives on which pages they take. Why do you think they do this? Do you believe it's added value and they are being kind to webmasters? No, they are doing it to comply with the copyright laws. Why do you think they act so fast on DMCA complaints? Because they really care about your content? No, they are doing it to comply with the copyright laws.

I didn't ask you why you think it's bad. I asked you what's the difference between Google's snippets devaluing a site and a scraper's snippets devaluing a site.

Because if a person wanted those removed from Google there is a quick and easy way to do it. They also (for the most part) obey both robots.txt and robots meta tag "specifically" for their bot. The only solution from a scraper so far has been to block all bots and then they will respect the robots.txt. Quite a difference, eh? There is also no proof with all the talk that has been going on about the subject through the years "there is almost nothing a competitor can do to hurt your site" – that a ton of these links couldn't hurt a site.

On another note, those that are now comparing themselves to Dogpile. Dogpile does not, I repeat does not scrape sites or content, they never even visit a site or crawl it. Again, you fail to see the point that is seen so easily by others. They have licensing agreements with other SE's to show their results – do you?

voices

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 5:32 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Why to scraper sites rank so high? Something wrong with the Google algo?

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 6:22 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Actually, I never see the scrapers rank particularly well. I come across them when I search for snippets of my site and the sheer number of the pages scraping me and the vulgar nature of some of those pages is what infuriates me. I have slipped down in the SERPs lately, but it's not scrapers above me, it's sites which have the individual words of two and three word search phrases somewhere on their page but which are not really relevant to the search. Some sort of domain posioning due to the scrapers and 302 hijackers seems to be a likely cause.

The GOOD NEWS for all the regular folks who just want to publish and have an opportunity to be found via G was just sent to me by Blend27, "The Scraper Slayer" (key theme music...)

I'll let him post the details if he likes, suffice it to say that a site with Alexa ranking near 6,000 which had recently added scraper content to their site has now gone WHITE BAR!

It feels great to be a "Scooby!" Just as long as I get to be Spike and not Xander.

blend27

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 6:32 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

----- RE : Scraper sites are a 11 subdomains of a .ORG domain with home page PR of 8 - the main site is a Community-oriented publishing software for PHP and MySQL. with Alexa Traffic rank of 6700 and has 130000 pages indexed by Google.

Well offenders this is what realy made me smile today

I got a stycky mail with the request to forward that URL that I was talking about " SEE MSG 160 in this thread"

I went to that website to check if the SUBDOMAINS still looked like they did.

They DONT any more!

Home Page PR of that site was 8 now 0, 130000 pages indexed by Google are gone from Google Index. I did SITE:ww*scumscraper.org, no pages found, as well as in Yahoo same results

You might ask if "DO you have proof to this"..

post your concern and someone who saw the site before will be able to tell you that what I am saying is god honest truth.

Seems like we here did a pretty good Job on letting google know about what matters to honest people.

HughMungus

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 6:42 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Give me one lawsuit, one case where anyone was successfully sued for putting snippets from someone else's web site on their own site. And where are the lawsuits from the search engines in their attempt to take down the meta-search sites? If this is such a wide-spread disease corrupting the Internet don't you think they would do something about it? The savings the search engines would receive in bandwith alone would justify it.

That's what I'm sayin. I'd love to see the legal justification in such cases. However, I do wonder how mega search engines that use other search engines continue to operate (Are they working with the other search engines? Are the search engines trying to block their spiders and failing? If there are attempts to block them, how is it being circumvented? etc. etc.)

HughMungus

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 6:44 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

I can't give you the documentation that my neighbor sued successfully last year for someone driving a car through his yard – destroying his yard and several shrubs…but it did happen.

Actually, you could. Most court case decisions are public information.

HughMungus

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 6:48 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Because if a person wanted those removed from Google there is a quick and easy way to do it. They also (for the most part) obey both robots.txt and robots meta tag "specifically" for their bot. The only solution from a scraper so far has been to block all bots and then they will respect the robots.txt. Quite a difference, eh? There is also no proof with all the talk that has been going on about the subject through the years "there is almost nothing a competitor can do to hurt your site" – that a ton of these links couldn't hurt a site.

Well, it's not exactly the question I was asking, but, it's an interesting answer: scraper sites are OK if you include a way for people to get their listings removed. If I ever do a scraper site (with snippets, like Google, which some of you have told me IS fair use even though I disagree), I'll be sure and add a link next to each listing that says, "Click here to have your listing removed."

ipoem

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 7:38 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

There is a problem with allowing people to request their listings removed - how can you verify that the request is coming from the legit owner of the web site?

blend27

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 7:50 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

---There is a problem with allowing people to request their listings removed - how can you verify that the request is coming from the legit owner of the web site? ---

what seems to be problem? removed listing from where? legit owner of what web site? Scraper site? legit?

isuccess

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 7:53 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

It depends on the reason you and google are in business for: asthetics or money.

If one is in the business of making money (legally and ethically) then one needs to do what "works" to get the money.

Trying to beautify and exemplify what the SERPS should look like is Google's business. Trying to understand why Google does this or that is not our biz.

In business, it's all about money. Without it, life is usually stressful and you can't buy toys and do fun things that cost money. Plus, you're only allocated so many years to live so might as well make the best of it (every single day), preferrably with some money in the bank.

Tigrou

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 8:03 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

I can't believe this thread is still going.

"WHY does google adsense sponsor such sites, there are 10000 sites like that which a sponsored by adsense" - was the query on the first post.

There have been maybe 10 good info posts related to the first query (as opposed to debating stances) since message 50. Not a criticism of anyone...just a fact that the thread has changed into a soapbox instead of a library.

If you think about it though, proves that both business models work rather well. I mean there are people from both camps that have the free time and energy to argue both sides. My energy/time is still going into my sites :-)

scraperrob

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 8:37 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Ok.. I think the bottom line is that Google will sponsor what ever they feel like sponsoring... Scrapers make them money, make the advertisers money, and actaully make customers happy. Most non technical people couldn't tell you what a scaper is.... I asked a friend of mine who isn't tech savvy to look at my site via search. He said if he was looking for that keyword, he would have been happy getting this page as it offers him many options via adsense and affiliates (not the scraped sites cause I just redirect to an affiliate page of mine now due to the uprour of my linking to them).

It makes everyone happy... except for the people looking up at us... that I cannot help.. I can get number 1's and stay there very easily. I am an EXPERT gray hat SEO which has made me quite wealthy. So if I can do it then anyone can. (If they take some time to learn it).

Anyways, I think I have summed up my stance on this.. and answered the question whey google sponsors these type of sites. We will never go away.... My love for nice cars, vacation houses, and boats is certainly proof I will never go away. (just bought a 50 ft yacht today with 3 months revenue)!

blend27

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 8:51 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

yacht is cool

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 10:03 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Why do I rarely see scrapers when I look up? The only place I ever really see alot of scrapers are when I specifically search for snippets from my site, when I see one lone refferal from some strangely named domain in my logs, or when blend27 sends me a URL and we get some popcorn and sit back to watch the site go "poof!"

P.S. "My name is spelt 'Luxury Yacht' but it's pronounced 'Throatwobbler Mangrove'."

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 10:32 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Well, it's not exactly the question I was asking, but, it's an interesting answer: scraper sites are OK if you include a way for people to get their listings removed.

That would keep me happy :)

blend27

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 10:57 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just found enother JUNK Site, This one is even better

it does link to my site, thrue a javascript, that is OK. The problem is that the anchor text on the link has my competitors name on it. That is JUNK.

scraperrob - do you think if I report ot to Google, the scraper will loose his AdSense Account? and I will becourse my competition sent me an e-mail and asked me what is going on, why is their name on a link that points to my site? I understand that quality control is not Google thing, so i will take care of it. I will not contact the scraper, i will go directly to the company that endorses this kind of crap. The domain name is hosted in US but registered to a sweety in Kharkov,UA,UA. I guess he woun't be buying a Yacht this summer....

fischermx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 11:13 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just curious, I guess you won't tell me the scraper nor your site, though I'd be thankfull if you sticky me the scraper's URL (you'll have another witness), but could you tell which soo competitive niche are you on?

blend27

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 11:19 pm on Mar 30, 2005 (gmt 0)

blue widgets :)

P.S. its not tabaco sales for sure :>

isuccess

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 12:57 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

Can anyone pm me an example of a scraper site or describe exactly what it is and what it does? Or give me a hint on what to search for on google to find an example of this practice? Thanks.

blend27

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 1:30 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

Step 1. go to Google, or yahoo, or even better, go to MSN, type the name of the gift that you gave your friend for valentine day. then find the name of the company that is IN SERPS and holds the position of 2 or 3 or 4. Go to that URL, copy URL.

Step 2. Go to Google or Yahoo, in the search box type URL of the website that you found in MSN.
NOT WWW.COMPANYNAME.TLD just COMPANYNAME.TLD. it should return a link that says

Find web pages that contain the term "COMPANYNAME.TLD" –

click on it, there should plenty to choose from...

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 1:43 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

isuccess,

Search on G for a snippet of text that should be unique to your site.

If you have ever placed well for any term, someone with a scraper wil have scraped some of your content. With even a moderately successful website, chances are that there are dozens, if not hundreds of such pages that incorporate a snippet from your site.

Some of the more obvious examples will jump out at you when you see that the URL of the site using your snippet has a domain name that has no conceivable relation to your industry (but may have a url that mentions some often spammed industry).

Look for a site which has text ads at the very top, followed by a list of sites that purport to be some sort of directory listing of sites. (You will find your site on the list along with a snippet.) At the bottom is another text ad.

On one side of the site there will be a menu bar linking off to all the topics this scraper is targeting. They can be wildly diverse topics but often include the same things that spam e-mails target. On the other side will be another text ad.

The real hallmarks are 1) no original content, all snippets from elsewhere, 2) a lack of focus on the topic being presented (such as a page which is supposedly a directory about house plants including listings for chemical plants (or whatever, you get the point.) 3)The inclusion of spam intensive categories -- the same kind of things you get spam e-mails about.)

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 2:02 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

blend27,

That is brilliant. Your method for finding scrapers sounded like a lot of mumbo-jumbo, but it works like a charm!

I guess that's why you're "The Scraper Slayer."

P.S. Send me the name of the site you mentioned earlier today. I've got the popcorn in the microwave, ready for -- showtime --.

isuccess

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 2:05 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

I get it. Thanks guys. This has happened to me. One of my sites has to do with foreclosures. In doing a search as you mentioned..."that contain the term" I have found several of my entire url (non clickable) showing up on other pages, directories and related and non-related sites as the "snipet", some even contain parts of my initial text or site description but when I click on the link, no reference of my site or a hot link or anything is anywhere to be found.

So the question is:

1. what's the purpose of this?
2. How do they do this?
3. Can I lose adsense revenue as a result of this?
4. How do you stop/prevent this from happening?

My Adsense revenues dropped 80% after I started seeing my urls popping up on these types of sites. Now my wife wants to leave me and take our first born. In checking G, I have noticed that none of my urls have dropped from the index.

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 2:13 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

isuccess,

I'm near the point in the day when my brain starts turning to jelly and I begin to rave like a lunatic. So I'll keep it short, but I do want to express my sympathies for your predicament as well as solidary with you in the cause of somehow righting this wrong.

Just stay tuned here - this is the cutting edge of this topic.

fischermx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 2:57 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)


My Adsense revenues dropped 80% after I started seeing my urls popping up on these types of sites. Now my wife wants to leave me and take our first born. In checking G, I have noticed that none of my urls have dropped from the index.

I hope you already have time, if so, do this :
Report all what these sites to either Google Adsense team, if they are running adsense, or just report it to Google as Spam. Just in case report it to Yahoo and MSN as well.
If they are not legitim directories to which you sent your site too, nor good well known search engines, then they are scraper sites.

Regards,

isuccess

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 3:06 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

On reporting: that seems to be a lot of work. But I would do it in a heartbeat to cover my own sites. Thanks for the suggestion. It'd be nice if Google could offer a payment plan for us to report these types of sites.

Now that I understand this topic better, I would think that if the scraper sites are producing revenue for google and themselves, even though they are ugly and asthetically useless, dropping them off the indexes could results in less profits for google and its shareholders. How do these sites affect our sites when they scrape our content or urls? I've seen plenty of my inactive urls floating around. My adsense income dropped about 80%. Does scraping affect Adsense income for individual publishers? How?

fischermx

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 3:18 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

blend27,

The scrapper site has already 6,000 pages indexed in google and it was registered just less than one month ago!
How on earth can they do that!?
I have legitim content sites in the sandbox! I can't believe this.

Atticus



 
Msg#: 5761 posted 3:22 am on Mar 31, 2005 (gmt 0)

"Does scraping affect Adsense income for individual publishers? How?"

Some scraper sites will "302 hijack" your site (see associated threads in WebmasterWorld's Google News forum). This condition may also lead to "domain posioning"

Additionally, by copying the snippets of sites like yours which have previously ranked well, the scraper hopes to out compete you for those terms. I don't think that they rank particularly well in general, but I think they do dilute the SERPs for multi word phrases to some degree.

Thing is nobody really knows -- that's what makes this cutting edge. In short, many publishers have seen exactly what you have, sudden drops in traffic and revenue coinciding with the rise of these types of sites. What is the exact cause and effect (if any), and how to stop traffic and reputation loss are what this discusion is about. Stay tuned. There are others here who can explain this a little better, they'll be back soon, I'm sure.

This 352 message thread spans 12 pages: < < 352 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 > >
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