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Google AdSense Forum

This 119 message thread spans 4 pages: < < 119 ( 1 2 [3] 4 > >     
AdSense common thread in the AdSense threads: Me, my, mine
A shift in theme: Them, their's (The advertisers, silly)
Webwork




msg:1369352
 2:58 pm on Mar 19, 2005 (gmt 0)

I just scanned the AdSense posts to confirm a nagging feeling and, I regret to confirm that what I knew intuitively was confirmed: ~ 85% of the discussion is about "me": My income, my money, my stats are down, how do I make more money, how do you make money so I can learn how I can make money, me, money, me, money.

Dear AdSensers: Why isn't your discussion, thread after thread after thread, about "What can I do to generate qualified leads that will convert well for advertisers so that advertisers are happy and that brings in more advertisers and there's more money in the pot . . ."

If AdSense is not about making money for the advertisers then it will fail. Miserably. Promise. Lot's of $.01 clicks, if that. A system in decline, maybe saved by SmartPricing - if all the advertisers aren't scared away.

Anyone get that? 95% of the threads that read "What's good for advertisers is good for me". 5% "Me, my money, my stats today".

No, a better yield for advertisers hasn't been the theme. Instead, it's incessantly me, more money for me, my income is down, my income trend is bad, I must make more websites so I make more money.

Me, me, me, me, me. This business of "now you can talk about your income" simply heightens the frenzy.

What is an advertiser to think?

Wake Up!

Folks, for this to work it needs to be about the advertisers. Not about "me", "my income", etc. IMHO there's a real need to shift the focus or locus of the dialogue.

Every day, in some way, 5 out of 7 posts need to be about delivering better results for advertisers, or AdSense will suffer in some way and so will you.

I challenge everyone of you to make a post a week, or even a month, that is about the who-what-when-where-why-how of generating a better ROI for advertisers.

This business of me-my-mine is poisonous. Every book I've ever read about the essentials of business success has stated this same proposition most pointedly: If it's about 'you' and not your customers, you will not succeed. If it's about "what's in it for me" not "how can I do this better for them" it will fail.

Yes, capitalism.

Enlightened capitalism.

Think.

[edited by: Webwork at 3:01 pm (utc) on Mar. 19, 2005]

 

FromRocky




msg:1369412
 9:00 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

Maybe the reason that there's been so little dialogue about ROI for advertisers in the AdSense threads is that no one ever extended the AdWorders an invitation to comment?

As an advertiser and publisher, I have visited and learned a lot from both forums. I know how both AdWords and AdSense work. Take advantages of this knowledge, my earnings from AdSense and Affiliates sales improved significantly. There is a big flaw in the ad placement and cost calculation for ads placed on the content sites. I don't know how many advertisers have used this flaw as their advantages to improve ROI. The end result for publishers will be a drop in AdSense EPC. My point is that if the advertisers want to improve their ROI, they should know how the AdSense works.

mfishy




msg:1369413
 9:35 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

But what if 90-95% of the market isn't quite at that point on the consumer buying cycle? Do you nonetheless force the click for that 90%+?

If not, why are these businesses bidding on these terms? Afterall, all the content advertisers also pay for clicks from Google and Overture.

EFV, I am talking about large ticket items like mortgages, way more than a $700 cruise....Landing page = better conversions than big info site.

davec




msg:1369414
 9:53 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

Does quality of content, from the advertisers POV, matter? I'm happy to see some advertisers weigh in. Any more?

I'm both an adsense publisher and an adwords advertiser. Rather ironically as an advertiser I'm just interested in ROI, whatever the quality of the content, however as a publisher I'm more interested in building quality branded sites with a long-term future.

d

newkid2005




msg:1369415
 9:58 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

Back to the original question:

Dear AdSensers: Why isn't your discussion, thread after thread after thread, about "What can I do to generate qualified leads that will convert well for advertisers so that advertisers are happy and that brings in more advertisers and there's more money in the pot . . .

Webwork, this is about the most insulting question i have seen in a while. Expecting (or even thinking of) a publisher to tailor his publication to the advertisers need without even providing him with the information needed to achieve this is just, well, it is so far out of common sense that it would requiere a whole knew level of understanding to comprehend.

The publisher has NO information about the goals of the advertiser other than that the advertiser wants clicks - hence joining a ppc program. Just be happy and thankful that some publishers do accept your stupid little text links for a couple of cents per click.

If an advertiser wants the publisher to care about him in an individual way, he better contact the publisher directly. Then and ONLY then we can talk about your (the advertisers) goals - e.g. what is a conversion for you? a lead, a sale, a view or what?

I will not spend a second of my time to think about what a measel, lazy 5 cent ppc advertiser might expect.

A hint for advertisers who care about quality in the sense of:

Where does my ad appear? Do I want to be associated with the image of the publication (website)? Do I want to communicate with the audience of that publication (website)? Do I want to be able to influence where and how my ad is showing within the publications? Am I interested in additional editorial coverage of my company and my products? Do I want a contact person who is available to me for detailed discussions?

WAKE UP! - You dont get that level of service for 5 cent/click! Even $50/click wont get you that level of service using adsense! Remember? The publisher does not know how much your individual ad pays!

Quality, effective advertising cannot be achieved by something as simple and stupid as Adsense.

REFUSING TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE PUBLISHER DOES NOT HELP!

Do your homework! Research possible publications (websites) - contact them and work on a mutual (audience/publisher/advertiser) benefitting relationship.

Or engage a REAL advertising agency who does the communication with the publisher for you (of course that would be way to expensive for 5cent advertisers).

BTW: I have some 150 happy direct advertisers on my website and I am spending a lot of my time listening to them and making their engagement worthwile. None of them cares about the number of clicks I generate for their websites - they care about the quantity and quality of feedback they get from my audience - online and offline (which turns into business for them at some point and keep them advertising with me year after year).

[edited by: newkid2005 at 10:53 pm (utc) on Mar. 21, 2005]

europeforvisitors




msg:1369416
 10:31 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

EFV, I am talking about large ticket items like mortgages, way more than a $700 cruise....Landing page = better conversions than big info site.

Actually, I was talking about a $700-per-day (per person) cruise, which is a whole different critter altogether. That's a lot less "mass market" than a $700 cruise--or, for that matter, than a home mortgage, which isn't limited to people at the top of the income pyramid.

mfishy




msg:1369417
 10:35 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

OK commercial loans for 1B, it does not matter. A bolier plate page is as good if not better in terms of conversion than 10000000000 articles about commercial loans.

Here's anewsflash webwork! Companies that buy ppc are trying to sell something! Can you believe it? So if the buyers are not "in the right stage of the cycle", no clicks will help them - it is not as though your information will support their sale of goods as you have no idea who is advertising what on your pages. More info does not mean more relevance or most importantly better buyers!

Do you ever buy ads on the web EFV? PLEASE do not go into the offline publishing speech. Specifically, do you buy text ads?

Most companies with BIG brands are more than happy to place ads all over the web. Ebay and Amazon come to mind. Anyway, it is interesting to hear what people think works when they are not even advertisers/adwords users themselves.

newkid2005




msg:1369418
 11:04 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

mfishy:

Good point. Buying Adwords text links means you are buying clicks - trying to put a "quality" tag on them is ridiculous.

I spend quite a bit on adwords and couldnt care less if those clicks convert to anything. With a CTR of less than 5% it is the cheapest possible way to achieve branding.

Webwork




msg:1369419
 11:06 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

Amusing side note: Everyone claiming to have expertise, or who presumably possesses a level of expertise (Google), will not share it.

I have yet to see an expert back up their opinion or assertions or expertise "by the numbers".

Even if I had some raw data I'd like to know: What's the sample size, the sub-set, the variables (methods, markets, time frame, etc.), the controls, and so on?

Clearly, a healthy chunk of the conversation - does quality matter and if so, how - is stuck in "I've got a secret and I'm not telling you." That would include Google only implicitly acknowledging the merits of "content doesn't really matter" as evidenced by the persistence of minimalist scraper sites.

So we're left to posture, speculate, do this and do that - often based upon little more than groping around in the dark for actionable information. All for a wont of anything approaching robust data - feedback - that might help to improve the conversation and action.

Sounds like an industry either in its decline or in its infancy.

newkid2005




msg:1369420
 11:11 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

Amen!

davec




msg:1369421
 11:11 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sounds like an industry either in its decline or in its infancy.

or quite possibly both

europeforvisitors




msg:1369422
 11:12 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

PLEASE do not go into the offline publishing speech.

And why not? PPC advertising isn't just about affiliate sales and e-commerce transactions. It can also be a way to obtain leads, and anyone who thinks all leads are created equal--or that media choices don't matter-- needs to spend some time on Madison or Michigan Avenue.

No one's disputing the fact that junk pages (even scraper pages) may convert well for some advertisers, and that some advertisers don't care about the quality of the sites where their ads appear. But it's a mistake to think that such experiences and attitudes are universal--or that AdSense 1.0 is likely to be the only choice that advertisers have a year from now.

Buying Adwords text links means you are buying clicks - trying to put a "quality" tag on them is ridiculous.

Newkid2005, I take it that you've never heard the term "qualified lead."

bears5122




msg:1369423
 11:17 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

Until Google cares about the ROI of their advertisers, I don't see Adsense publishers caring, nor should they.

incrediBILL




msg:1369424
 11:52 pm on Mar 21, 2005 (gmt 0)

<warming up> ME ME ME ME ME! </warming up>

My site is very industry specific, very specific content per page, gets good targetted ads.

I can tell you from AFFILIATE programs I run, some ads get lots of clicks and no conversions while others get lots of clicks AND lots of conversions. Trust me on this, every affiliate program is about my WIDGETS, no cheap webhosting, no win a free ipod, none of that nonsense, everything is very on target but some things just don't fly. With the affiliate programs I simply weed out the lame ducks and try other things.

The bottom line I've learned is you CANNOT tailor your site to an advertiser mainly because in many cases you simply DO NOT KNOW what your visitors really want or are willing to buy via your web site. The only solution is to tailor the ads being run to those that maximize ROI on your existing traffic, but we don't have that level of control, as publisher or advertiser, so it's a moot point.

That would make affiliate programs more effective for the advertisers ROI, big shock, DUH.

You hear that AdWords people? Run to Commission Junction if you want better ROI.

Back to money grubbing while it lasts.... ME ME ME ME ME!

StupidScript




msg:1369425
 12:00 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

Webwork, I'm not sure what you are trying to ascertain.

You wonder if "quality matters" and seek data to support an answer?

What would satisfy? A chart with sites ranked by "quality" comparing their CTRs? A chart ranked by CTRs comparing the "quality" of the sites?

What measurement system could accomodate that?

How about this:

Quality content is important for site owners who want visitors to appreciate the site's content. In this case, the quality of the content attracts and retains visitors. If the site is selling something directly, the quality content helps drives those sales, as, after all, "quality" in this case means "effective" in driving the visitor to the purchase.

Quality content is less important for site owners who want visitors to click on ads that generate revenue for the site owner. In this case, the quality of the ADs is more important, as is their positioning, look, etc. For the site owner, this means they need to balance the content of the site with the content of the ads, with more weight being given to the ads.

"Quality" is so very subjective that it would be difficult or impossible to pin data to it.

Does "quality" matter to MS? Is "quality" more important to the Linux community? Each has their own standards for the definition of "quality", and each is pursuing a course that fits within their definition, regardless of whether you or I would agree with that definition or the goals which that definition is in place to support.

Your question is pretty nebulous. I do like your periodic summations, though. Maybe those are what will bring you your answer.

iblaine




msg:1369426
 12:12 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

Interesting thread...I wouldn't say AdSense/AdWords is in its infancy or on its decline just because Advertisers and Publishers are left blindly to understand how to optimize their conversions. The system was built such that Google alone would handle optimizing ads. Someone buying clicks has little control over where their text links are displayed. Likewise someone using AdSense has little control over what text links appear on their site. This dumbed-down the process to where anyone can get involved. The system can scale but publishers and advertisers have little control. Quality does not matter in AdSense because your only control is to passively influence AdSense to display better ads. Quality does not matter as an AdWords Advertiser because you cannot compete for Publishers - that's Google's job. Thankfully for Google, the systems simplicity affords it the ability to be inefficient. If you want to improve beyond what AdSense/AdWords can offer then find advertising solutions that offer more control like CPA networks or go directly to the other party.

newkid2005




msg:1369427
 12:38 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

EFV:

The term "qualified lead" is well known here :-)

The point I was trying to make (and I am aware of my lack in writing skills - English is not my native language) is:

In the world of PPC, qualifying leads is up to the advertiser. It is the ad copy that triggers the click - not the surrounding content (or absense of content).

I respect and value your contributions and to go along the lines of your usual argumentation:

A well writting article of high cost cruise line vacations will most certainly pre-qualify readers who, after reading, click on a matching ad. However, if you have a poorly written ad accompaning your article the pre-qualified and interested reader may not click on it.

I am sure you could help advertisers on your site to write compelling, drawing ad copies simply because you, the publisher, knows best what works with your audience.

Again:

Advertisers going the cheap route by using adsense and refusing to communicate to the publisher loose out.

newkid2005




msg:1369428
 12:47 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

incrediBILL:

Good point. On my site I am able to sell groups with some 50, 100 or 200 hotel room nights to direct advertisers but, for the life of it, my audience does not buy room nights offered through affilate aggreements (or reporting is flawed and I simply dont get paid ;-)).

So, no affiliate revenues for me...

cabowabo




msg:1369429
 2:25 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just had to throw in my opinion here ...

People buy for just two reasons;

1) To make themselves feel good;
2) That your product or service will make their current situation better

That's it. So, with that understood, why would anyone care realistically about the advertiser. If you do, it is all fluff anyway. All you are really concerned with in the end is "How much is my paycheck". Anyone who says it is about the advertiser isn't being honest. We are all human deep down which means we are selfish individuals that look to better our positions with everything that we do.

So, don't mind me as I have another Waborita, which is a completely selfish act to help wind down the day.

Cheers,

CaboWabo

newkid2005




msg:1369430
 2:36 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

cabowabo:

It does help if the advertiser has the impression that you care about him ;-)

europeforvisitors




msg:1369431
 2:38 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

However, if you have a poorly written ad accompaning your article the pre-qualified and interested reader may not click on it.

I certainly wouldn't argue with that--and a lot of AdWords advertisers might be better off if they hired copywriters.

why would anyone care realistically about the advertiser...All you are really concerned with in the end is "How much is my paycheck".

I don't think anyone is suggesting that publishers be altruistic. I think the point Webwork is making (and which I'd happily make, too) is that it's in the publisher's own long-term interest to get beyond the fast-buck, "get clicks however you can, and screw the advertisers" mentality.

Mind you, I'm not as worried about selfish publishers killing the golden goose as some members may be. I think it's more likely that they'll just find themselves scrambling for pennies from AdSense as their lack of foresight catches up with them.

birdstuff




msg:1369432
 2:48 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

In the world of PPC, qualifying leads is up to the advertiser. It is the ad copy that triggers the click - not the surrounding content (or absense of content).

As a publisher AND advertiser I say this is right on the mark. The advertiser (ostensibly with Google's help) controls the ad copy. The advertiser controls the selling power of the landing page. The publisher controls neither.

As a publisher I have no control whatsoever over which ads Google decides to place on my pages OR on the quality of the ads themselves or the sales copy, therefore I have no obligation (or ability) to affect the advertiser's ROI.

As an advertiser I am in complete control over the ads and sales pages that I run. My responsibility is to:

1 - Write an accurate, enticing ad that accurately describes exactly what the customer will find offered on the landing page.

2 - Write sales copy that convinces the customer to buy my product, from ME and not someone else.

I'm very successful at both and my ads convert well regardless of the "quality" of the site the customer found my ads on.

Why? 2 reasons:

1 - They pre-qualify themselves by choosing MY ad over the others in the ad block (and over any other regular links on the page). My ad copy was the most enticing and since they chose my ad over the others they had at least a nominal amount of interest in my offer.

2 - Once they arrive on my sales page my sales copy convices them to take action.

Advertising success is and always has been completely dependent upon the performance of the advertiser. This includes making a wise decision about where to place the ads in the first place. Google has decided not to allow the advertiser to make this decision and the consequences are not the responsibility of the publisher. Blaming poor performance on the publisher is a cop-out, both by advertisers and by Google. And I say that as a very active and successful advertiser.

mfishy




msg:1369433
 2:53 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

In the world of PPC, qualifying leads is up to the advertiser. It is the ad copy that triggers the click - not the surrounding content (or absense of content).

Of course this is the case, but some here do not write ads, nor use adwords and do not seem to understand this simple concept. If it were the surrounding content conversions would be much worse at MSN :)

As a publisher I have no control whatsoever over which ads Google decides to place on my pages OR on the quality of the ads themselves or the sales copy, therefore I have no obligation (or ability) to affect the advertiser's ROI.

EXACTLY. When google puts ads on my pages for Payday loans when the page is about refinancing, how the heck am i going to improve the advertisers ROI? Do you folks understand how adsense works? Publishers do not choose the ads and there is no approval process for ads in the first place.

In 20 minute i can have ads on europeforvisitors.com targetting coffee beans if i bid on the right terms. Is it EFV's responsibility to optimize for me?

It can also be a way to obtain leads, and anyone who thinks all leads are created equal--or that media choices don't matter-- needs to spend some time on Madison or Michigan Avenue.

Have spent much time there, you?

Anyway, what does this have to do with the discussion? When people advertise via ppc, their ads show up on google, aol, earthlink, Ask, etc...they are in no control of the demographics of their users other than location (supposedly). Much of the trafffic from adsense sites also comes form search engines - the very same visitors they are willing to pay for in the first place.

I have yet to hear any argument or even an attempt at explaining why one would think the "quality" of a page an adsense banner is displayed on would directly correlate to a "better" lead.

And Jeff, why would anyone here even think of sharing raw data that has cost them HUGE money to obtain? Some here have entire divisions dedicated to studying conversions.

BTW, I do not really use adsense much these days, as OV pays better (for me) but it does not matter - if you have good traffic, there are buyers, and tons of em. If adsense changed the way they operate, i would not lose a minute of sleep changing out that real estate :)

rbacal




msg:1369434
 3:38 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

Webwork wrote:

"Does quality of content, from the advertisers POV, matter? I'm happy to see some advertisers weigh in. Any more?"

Let's step back a bit. First, let's distinguish between different business models. One business model involves the web as a tool, but just one tool of an overall business strategy. In this, the business does not exist SOLELY for functioning on the Internet.

That's the business model I use. If the Internet closed tomorrow, I would still have a business.

For this kind of advertising, where multiple income streams are the norm, quality IS important. Because the branding, look, feel, etc spins off much more than direct Internet sales.

Let me give you an example. In 1996 I started building sites as a hobby. Professional quality articles, many of them published in print magazines. As a result of that quality content, I was offered a book contract to write for McGraw-Hill. And since then I've been offered and written something like seven others BECAUSE OF the quality content. The Internet drove me other business, and continues to do so, so quality content is critical.

The other business model involves a business that exists solely to profit from the Internet itself. It does not exist otherwise. It sells ads, develops no significant intellectual property that can be profited from offline, and its concern is simply to make money ONLY from the Internet. Within that category are the giants (yahoo, amazon, etc), and the non-giants (mostly people who are on here). Branding is important to yahoo, but it's not so important to Joe's directory of travel sites. All that really matters is traffic, and whether people click, or buy. In short the latter operate as online sales people. There are no concerns about demonstrating their skills, or their expertise.

They can have absolutely poor quality content, or almost none, and that can actually increase sales, since their visitors will be more likely to click on those affiliate ads since they offer no content to distract from the ads!

As an advertiser, I want quality sites to advertise on. Because I want my ads to appear with quality, and not be associated with sites that clearly demonstrate no expertise in the subjects and material that contain my ads. It's MY reputation. I brand.

If my business was simply about pushing people to buy other's products, I doubt I'd care much about where and how good the content is. All I would care about is whether I'm getting my cut. But then, all I would be is an online salesman. But I'm not. I want spin off revenue, because I'm NOT an internet business. The Internet is simply a tool, NOT my business.

(I'm making a lot of generalizations here...I know that, but it's food for thought. It's not so black and white as I wrote above).

mfishy




msg:1369435
 3:43 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

As an advertiser, I want quality sites to advertise on. Because I want my ads to appear with quality, and not be associated with sites that clearly demonstrate no expertise in the subjects and material that contain my ads. It's MY reputation. I brand.

The exact opposite approach has worked for the biggest Internet brands, Amazon and ebay, as well as google, all which have their links or ads on million sof sites on every topic and range of quality. It simply does not dilute or impact their brand.

Anyway, if this is the hardline you take, you surely are not a PPC advertiser to begin with...

If my business was simply about pushing people to buy other's products, I doubt I'd care much about where and how good the content is. All I would care about is whether I'm getting my cut. But then, all I would be is an online salesman. But I'm not. I want spin off revenue, because I'm NOT an internet business. The Internet is simply a tool, NOT my business.

Sounds good but this discussion is about publishers who DO make their living by displaying ads. This is like me saying, "I own a shoe store so I do not care about adsense". 100% irrelevant.

If my business was simply about pushing people to buy other's products

Or a newspaper, magazine, television station, radio channel, web site publisher, or many othjer sleazy fields you would hate to be associated with. BTW, do you want a cookie? :)

rbacal




msg:1369436
 4:17 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm punchy here, so if this doesn't make sense sorry.

Mfishy said:

"The exact opposite approach has worked for the biggest Internet brands, Amazon and ebay, as well as google, all which have their links or ads on million sof sites on every topic and range of quality. It simply does not dilute or impact their brand."

True, but you are missing something. How many years of multi-million dollar losses has amazon endured? Also, these are established giants, not subject to the same conditions as most of us are.

You said:Anyway, if this is the hardline you take, you surely are not a PPC advertiser to begin with

Yes, I am. Done it for sales of our products, books, etc specifically, but now mainly using it for branding and traffic. See below.

You also said:

Sounds good but this discussion is about publishers who DO make their living by displaying ads. This is like me saying, "I own a shoe store so I do not care about adsense". 100% irrelevant"

Making money via advertising is a part of what we do here. A major part because to be honest, there's money lying on the table to be scooped up. So let's focus just on that. I have been an adsense user since just after they started, AND and adsense advertiser. I have enough statistical information available now (as a publisher) to flat out tell you that our CONTENT (I mean professional level, could and have sold it to print publications) is a major reason why we make so much money from adsense. I can track all this by channels. For US (can't speak for others), I can tell you that the pages where content is weaker (yes, I admit to it) have lower CPM's. Our product pages do best, followed by our quality article pages. In other words the less professional content available, the lower the income on the page.

Our traffic, compared to many here is small - let's say several thousand individual visits a day. Total. Our adsense income (primarily from pages with top quality content) comes in at $x,000 where the x>2. (I won't tell you how much over two it is, but don't assume it's just a bit over)Our CPM overall is over $xx.00 but would be much higher if we removed the multiple ads (which we are doing). Our CTR is relatively low, but I know that the best CTR's occur on the best content pages we produce.

Our goal is to create professional quality content on subjects where we are expert. We don't create content to fit advertisers, although we do consider somewhat what might be in demand. We work like print. We create the best stuff we can, and THEN we insert the ads, and it works.

FYI, here's how we/I do it. We ask.

1) What can I write about where I can offer expertise unique to me.
2) Can I write about those topics well (sometimes I can't).
3) Will what I write/offer be USEFUL to people?
4) Am I interested in the topics I've identified so far - interested enough to THINK and WRITE about them?

THEN and only then do I look at:

4) Are these topics in demand for real people out there?
5) Are there advertisers out there that can allow me a reasonable return on my time?
6) Of the topics I identified through 1-4 above, other things being equal, which ones should I approach first (i.e. which are most valuable to me).

I also consider spinoff revenue. For example, I regularly sell reprint rights for content from my websites, to companies to use internally, or to magazines.

I can't speak for others. But I do KNOW my numbers, and where and how the money is coming from. Quality content works, but you have to understand that when I talk about quality, I'm talking professional level quality with a very high bar. If your content is so-so, then it probably might as well be really bad. If it's a rehash of what 1,000 others said, it's not quality. I do a LOT of looking at article content on the web, and I will tell you that at least 95% of the actual content on smaller websites (i.e. NOT Fastcompany or INC type sites) simply isn't professional quality.

Right now, google is inadvertently contributing to the productions of millions of pages of junk. I think eventually things will evolve and change, so that the junk actually doesn't work as well as it does now.

But even now, my quality pages bring quality money. My less quality pages bring me less quality money. Maybe I'm in the minority here.

Webwork




msg:1369437
 4:33 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

"Quality" is so very subjective

So, SS, that leads us to what? To the conclusion that the industry's use of the phrase "quality content" is a clever ruse? A mantra devoid of meaning?

You would think that a phrase so often employed would have a large body of knowledge, specifically as the phrase is applied in the contextual advertising context, but does it?

No.

SS, you characterize my statements concerning the contextual advertising industry as being "nebulous". If, by that, you mean that I have accurately captured the state of the industry, I'd say you've caught the gist of at least part of what I've been laboring to describe and evoke. It's little wonder that 85% of the AdSense forum posts have focused on "me, my, mine". When you venture into a discussion of contextual advertising things are a bit hazy, nebulous. At least with money you know what it is, there's a large body of consensus and you can measure it.

It is, in part, the nebulous quality of what passes for knowledge in the contextual advertising industry, that has lead me attempt to ratchet up the dialogue and to encourage further discourse in future threads.

hdpt00




msg:1369438
 5:15 am on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

I am an AS and AW user and I don't care if my ads shown on an adult site. I pre qualify my clicks via my ad text. If someone clicks my ad they know what they are coming for and I'll probably make money off of them since they came there for that reason.

As an AS publisher I don't care who puts ads on my site, I just want to make the most money, it is up to them to make sure they can convert or they'll drop out and someone with a clue will take their place.

I'm not going to write content about new mexican white coffee beans to make sure that my New Mexican coffee grower advertisers are happy. I'll write a page about coffee and if they think they can make money from their coffee they can bid on coffee.

birdstuff




msg:1369439
 2:29 pm on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm not going to write content about new mexican white coffee beans to make sure that my New Mexican coffee grower advertisers are happy. I'll write a page about coffee and if they think they can make money from their coffee they can bid on coffee.

This is where many advertisers go wrong. They bid on a generic term, write a generic ad, and then try to sell a specific item that just broadly relates to the ad. And then the publisher gets hammered by "smart pricing" because the ad doesn't convert. (Of course this assumes that smart pricing works as advertised in the first place, which it obviously cannot and does not).

europeforvisitors




msg:1369440
 2:58 pm on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm not going to write content about new mexican white coffee beans to make sure that my New Mexican coffee grower advertisers are happy. I'll write a page about coffee and if they think they can make money from their coffee they can bid on coffee.

I think you and several other people here are missing the point of what Webwork was saying. Unless I'm mistaken, he wasn't implying that publishers should be creating content to match what advertisers are trying to sell. If anything, he was suggesting the opposite: that publishers should be creating content with intrinsic value for the user instead of grinding out keyword-stuffed filler material for use with AdSense ads. (Still, that's more easily said than done; to build on what rbacal said, creating professional-quality content isn't as simple as pasting three ad units above the fold and filling the rest of the page with scraped search results.)

mfishy




msg:1369441
 3:09 pm on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

he wasn't implying that publishers should be creating content to match what advertisers are trying to sell.

Actually he was talking about publishers trying to find a way to send more qualified leasds to advertisers. HE says:

"What can I do to generate qualified leads that will convert well for advertisers"

The answer is nothing.

He even goes ont to say:

" challenge everyone of you to make a post a week, or even a month, that is about the who-what-when-where-why-how of generating a better ROI for advertisers."

This cannot be done. Publishers have no control over the ads that are served to them. Writing better content for your users does not help generate better leads for the advertisers, rather, their ad copy does.

europeforvisitors




msg:1369442
 3:17 pm on Mar 22, 2005 (gmt 0)

The answer is nothing.

Even leaving the content issue aside, one thing a publisher can do is refrain from using cheap tricks that jack up CTR at the expense of conversions.

Some publishers need to learn the difference between enlightened self-interest and unenlightened greed.

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