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Google AdSense Forum

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Is AdSense gone crazy?
Noel




msg:1344410
 8:46 pm on Jun 4, 2004 (gmt 0)

This month I'm getting ridicules (and I mean REDICULES) high pay (till now) per click / day.

The clicks and hit's I'm geting are about the same as what I normaly get per day. The ads I get also look the same, and I did not change the layout and / or any text on the site(s).

Am I the only one here who is having this (nice) problem?

Noel

 

arubicus




msg:1344440
 8:37 am on Jun 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Blaze, I am sorry but I am with EFV on this also. Here is where I stand.

1. I see no penalty for adsense sites in results.

2. When a site has many many many thousands of pages, the ease that adsense brings to the table for showing relevant ads is much more cost and time effective. Especially those pages where there isn't enough traffic per page and sites with wide spread content. Think about it. Lets say you have 1,000 pages. Not all pages are of the same subject to fit 1 or 2 affiliates. More like 500+ affiliates. Each has 10 visitors average per day. That is 10,000 visitors you could monitize with adsense each day. Lets say you get a 4% click through rate which would be 400 clicks. Multiply that by a weak 15 cents a click and you have $60 per day or about $1800 extra at the end of the month or an extra $21000 per year. And that is just the low traffic pages! Now try to manage 500+ affiliates and you start to get a mess trying to track, tweak, convert and find time to do it across multiple sites.

3. Let's say you don't have wide spread content and have more of a niche site in which affiliates are easier to handle and abundant. EFV has stated numerous of times that adsense has had little effect on affiliates clicks and conversions. I also see the same. Most all of our affiliates actually increased in clicks and conversions. Lets say for poop sake that I have a page that gets 500 visitors (not actual numbers) 15% click on an affiliate link. What happens to the other 75%? Well, if the article dosen't get them to the affiliate I can snag a percentage with adsense (easily done by placement of ads). The rest get pulled to other parts of the site which the process starts over again (good design).

(this one is for fezziwig). "Google is penalizing the small publisher for the ineptitude of its advertisers."

Is is just small publishers? And what is considered small? Also, you are right in that google better find a happy middle for publishers as well as advertisers quick before someone else hops in. If they don't, what will keep publishers with them? Nothing. Publishers are trying to make money also. Who gives publishers the most wins! It isn't the support, it isn't the features. People tend to tolerate more when the bills in their wallet get bigger!

Powdork - "I think at a minimum, some serious competition with the ease of sign up that Google has would minimize the huge fluctuations in EPC."

Compeditors are just sitting on the sidelines listening to our complaints trying to figure out a better strategy than google. I am willing to bet that someone will launch a superior product in time.

blaze




msg:1344441
 6:01 pm on Jun 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

It's hard to explain how you can do better than AdSense unless you have the skills and sophistication to appreciate the techniques I might describe.

If you were so inclined and had an appropiately dynamic website, developing AdSense like technology is not as complicated as you probably think it is, especially as you most likely have an idea (a much better idea than Google) about your content.

On some rare occasions, absolutely, your content is so broad and chaotic that developing AdSense technology is difficult and it's better to give up 60% of the profits to Google.

But these occassions are very very few and far between.

As for Yahoo, it's important for you to realise that strategically, they do not want AdSense like technology available as it funds people to develop content based websites which directly compete with the Yahoo portal.

arubicus




msg:1344442
 6:43 pm on Jun 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

blaze - As for Yahoo, it's important for you to realise that strategically, they do not want AdSense like technology available as it funds people to develop content based websites which directly compete with the Yahoo portal.

As do any search results to any other site with adsense or not. Any business that competes with thier shopping directory, news, chat, groups, messenger, portal, search engine, ppc search, blah blah blah... Get smart.

blaze - If you were so inclined and had an appropiately dynamic website, developing AdSense like technology is not as complicated as you probably think it is, especially as you most likely have an idea (a much better idea than Google) about your content.

My site is completely dynamic and automated. Second the technology is simple enough to create an adsense clone specifically designed for your site but you would need to market and expend resources to come up with the advertisers and support for a per-click basis. Including but not limited to employees (employment taxes, insurance, and so on) time, energy, money, leagan fees, and so on... Again try to do this across multiple sites with a small operation.

blaze




msg:1344443
 7:17 pm on Jun 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Obviously you are someone who understands the trade offs and have likely made the correct decision.

I just get frustrated as there are a lot of people with great content that have AdSense and don't realize that they could triple their take by simply going direct to the advertiser ..

arubicus




msg:1344444
 7:18 pm on Jun 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

blaze - It's hard to explain how you can do better than AdSense unless you have the skills and sophistication to appreciate the techniques I might describe."

This statement is insulting. But humorous in the fact that you believe that it requires sophistication when you yourself say that: "AdSense like technology is not as complicated as you probably think it is".

Make up your mind!

Also what techniques have you described? The only thing I can see is dumping a bunch of affiliates in a database and then querying the database when required. Duh. Not sophisticated at all. I have been doing it for years as many of us. So where is the sophistication that is required?

Many of us also find adsense is comparable or has better payouts than affiliates.

arubicus




msg:1344445
 7:23 pm on Jun 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

"I just get frustrated as there are a lot of people with great content that have AdSense and don't realize that they could triple their take by simply going direct to the advertiser .."

So what. It is none of your concern. You do business the way you want. They will do theirs. So why get frustrated.

Tripple their take? It depends on market really. If you understand your market then you would have already found which is better. It isn't good to blanket one technique across all sites though. Everyone has different markets, standards, types of visitors (age, sex, local) so each site has to market in their own way...what works best for them.

blaze




msg:1344446
 8:01 pm on Jun 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Developing skill and sophistication isn't particularly difficult. Quite often we may be mere yards away from our destination, but because of our imagination and fear of the unknown it feels like miles and miles.

Also, unfortunately, I can go on and on about how easy it is, but because of the natural fear of the unknown most people have they'd rather come up with every excuse in the world to block out what I am trying to say rather than make the small jump it takes to improve things for themselves.

Also, I think you are taking things personally, which is always a very big mistake with forums. When I said 'you' I meant the royal you, and not you (arbicus) in particular.

As for me being frustrated. Well your response left me feeling a little sad. I think it's a noble persuit to contribute to the community in a way that encourages and enhances the success of others.

The denigration of that persuit is suprisingly common but always pretty dissapointing and never understandable. At least not to me.

arubicus




msg:1344447
 5:57 am on Jun 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

I am sorry you are sad and frusterated but in your words:

"I think you are taking things personally, which is always a very big mistake with forums."

"The denigration of that persuit is suprisingly common but always pretty dissapointing and never understandable. At least not to me."

Actually it is understandable it is in what you said:

"fear of the unknown"

That is all.

You can ony preach to those who listen. You can only reach those who accept.

You act like this is total loss. It isn't. As long as you/I/someone learns from the information that was posted. Don't worry. I did get some spark of imagination that I want to test out so thanks.

fezziwig




msg:1344448
 7:14 pm on Jun 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

[wuote]Is is just small publishers? And what is considered small? Also, you are right in that google better find a happy middle for publishers as well as advertisers quick before someone else hops in. If they don't, what will keep publishers with them? Nothing. Publishers are trying to make money also. Who gives publishers the most wins! It isn't the support, it isn't the features. People tend to tolerate more when the bills in their wallet get bigger![/quote]

Google is paying a guaranteed amount to the big-ticket publishers, from what I understand from their SEC filings. This has been discussed at length here. The small fry gets squeezed and the fat cats get a guaranteed amount. Doesn't quite fit into the "we will not be evil" mold, IMHO.

blaze




msg:1344449
 7:18 pm on Jun 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

Paying market value for a commodity is not evil.

fezziwig




msg:1344450
 3:05 am on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

So it's just fine that the small publishers get a smaller share of revs per click, based on the same keywords, when compared to the giant publishers? Falls under an evil light in my eyes.

blaze




msg:1344451
 3:17 am on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

A potato farmer is going to give someone a much better price if they bought 1 million potatoes versus someone who comes along and buys 10 potatoes. It's just basic economics. Google promised to do no evil, they did not promise to do bad business.

arubicus




msg:1344452
 4:29 am on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

I am with blaze on this one all the way. Sounds kinda like the zero-sum economics crap I hear all the time. The rich (bigger sites) take away from the poor (smallet sites).

Another thing is that "evil" is subjective. The meaning and requirements for "evil" differs from one person to the next.

[edited by: arubicus at 4:34 am (utc) on June 8, 2004]

ChrisKud5




msg:1344453
 4:31 am on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

"A potato farmer is going to give someone a much better price if they bought 1 million potatoes versus someone who comes along and buys 10 potatoes. It's just basic economics. Google promised to do no evil, they did not promise to do bad business.
"

That really has nothing to do with economics at all, that is just the way suppliers often deal with people.

arubicus




msg:1344454
 4:36 am on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

It is economics!

arubicus




msg:1344455
 4:41 am on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

The science of distribution, production, and consumption of wealth - economics.

fezziwig




msg:1344456
 4:03 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

ABC company contracts with you to do a job. They won't tell you how much they will pay you to do the job, but when you start, it appears that they are paying you $1000 per widget produced. You are happy with that arrangement.

Over time, ABC company continues to pay you $1000 per widget. As a supplier, you become accustomed to getting $1000 per widget. You know what it costs to produce the widget. You know what the widget is worth on the retail market. You get a good price. ABC company can mark it up substantially. ABC's customers are plentiful and happy.

It is a good deal for all.

Then, ABC company waves their magic wand, just prior to their IPO. We have magical new technology, they say. We can't tell you what the technology is, or how it works, but you--as the supplier--are going to have to take a cut. ABC company no longer pays you $1000 per widget. Instead, they start paying you a mere fraction of that and the numbers steadily decrease. ABC does this so that they can subsidize the old school widget manufacturers, who, despite declining market share, still hold considerable panache.

Meanwhile, the ABC company is reselling the widgets for the same price as before. You know for a fact that these widgets are selling for the same price, because you can see the sale prices as they are reported on the open market. You know for a fact that the magical new technology is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

And then, a competitor for ABC company arises, the XYZ corporation. XYZ has watched the market over the last year. They have seen the changes take place and they know exactly what it takes to make ABC quake in its boots. XYZ begins buying widgets from the very same manufacturers, while guaranteeing not just a higher rate, but the promise of full disclosure.

There is now competition in the marketplace. The widget manufacturers see their revenues rise. The retail widget customers see their costs dip. The squeeze is on ABC and XYZ as their margins are tighter.

All is happy in the kingdom as evil is beaten back with a huge cluestick.

mquarles




msg:1344457
 5:36 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

ABC does this so that they can subsidize the old school widget manufacturers, who, despite declining market share, still hold considerable panache.

Not sure I understand this part of the analogy, or if I do understand it, I'm not sure I agree with it.

Will look forward to OVER, oops! I mean XYZ, entering the market.

MQ

markus007




msg:1344458
 6:52 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

The EPC per keyword has been constant since the start of the program. The only thing that changes is the keywords that trigger adsense. One day you might have a $5.00 keyword and tomorrow it could be a 5 cent keyword.

fezziwig




msg:1344459
 8:49 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

Not sure I understand this part of the analogy, or if I do understand it, I'm not sure I agree with it.

Read the SEC filings and all will become clear. There will still be plenty of smoke and mirrors, of course.

fezziwig




msg:1344460
 8:55 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

The EPC per keyword has been constant since the start of the program. The only thing that changes is the keywords that trigger adsense. One day you might have a $5.00 keyword and tomorrow it could be a 5 cent keyword.

In my experience, the EPC per specific keyword phrase has been anything but constant.

Yes, it is an auction.
Yes, the prices fluctate.

That is all understandable.

What is not clear is the exact percentage of revenues paid to the AdSense publisher per click.

The effect of Google shielding this percentage from view is that they have the ability to manipulate their margins at will.

Google definitely wins from this.
The advertiser might win from this.
The publisher loses ... as does, perhaps, the potential Google investor.

Red flags should be flying.

blaze




msg:1344461
 9:01 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

Actually, google will serve you the same Ads and reduce the EPC depending on how well your traffic does or doesn't convert.

My assumption is that they are reducing the CPC for the Adwords customer as well instead of just keeping it for themselves.

You can argue otherwise, I suspect it's a bit of both ..

It is also interesting to note that if they had to 'meet' their numbers, there would be room for them to pick the pocket of the small publisher.

Fortunately, they have stated that 'meeting' their numbers is not a priority..

nyet




msg:1344462
 9:09 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

The effect of Google shielding this percentage from view is that they have the ability to manipulate their margins at will.

Red Flags should be flying? Do they have hammers and sickles on them? : )

I think a business not publishing or sharing it's margins is pretty common in capitalism.

As a publisher, it is either 'worth it' to you or not.

blaze




msg:1344463
 9:16 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

When there is competition in the market, processes generally tend towards transparency because of customer demand.

Because there is no competition here, Google is pretty safe to keep things Opaque.

nyet




msg:1344464
 9:20 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

When there is competition in the market, processes generally tend towards transparency because of customer demand.

huh?

What is the profit margin on Delta Airlines' Miami to Newark flight?

How much does Apple computer make on each ipod?

Besides, I think many keep confusing exactly 'whom' is the customer in this situation.

When the farmer sells milk to the Cheese Company, what does he *care* how much profit the Cheese Company is 'sharing' with him.

He either sells the milk at the price they offer or finds another cheese company....

If there is no other Cheese company, then I guess he has to take whatever price they offer or get out of the milk business.

But the suggestion that he has a 'right to know' is pretty silly.

Oh, and by the way, the real customer in this situation -- The ultimate eater of the cheese -- couldn't possibly care less......

fezziwig




msg:1344465
 9:37 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

Actually, google will serve you the same Ads and reduce the EPC depending on how well your traffic does or doesn't convert.

Yes. That is the party line. The reality is that they have no idea how the traffic converts in whole. It is all a smoke and mirrors ploy.

The know how a TINY percentage of the traffic converts--on those pages where the advertiser has implemented Google's tracking scheme.

The reality is that on the vast number of pages, the conversion rate has MUCH more to do with the advertiser's landing page then it does the page where the AdWords ads are displayed.

My assumption is that they are reducing the CPC for the Adwords customer as well instead of just keeping it for themselves.

You can argue otherwise, I suspect it's a bit of both ..

I wouldn't argue otherwise. But I wouldn't say that it's a 50/50 split, either.

It is also interesting to note that if they had to 'meet' their numbers, there would be room for them to pick the pocket of the small publisher.

Yes, indeed.

Fortunately, they have stated that 'meeting' their numbers is not a priority..

So we're supposed to believe what they say? Those boys and girls at Enron seemed like such nice folks at the time.

When they offer to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, do you buy that, too?

blaze




msg:1344466
 9:43 pm on Jun 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

Affiliates who such programs as CJ, Shareasale, and BFree understand what I am talking about when it comes to competition creating greater transparency.

These programs compete for affiliates in part by taking less of a percentage, in part by better services, in part by having more advertisers, and in part by having more transparency to the statistics.

Competition has caused this to happen. And, yes, I am calling the Affiliates customers. Probably a misnomer, but really, in life .. aren't we all customers being sold something?

As for fezziwig, I think we're pretty much on the same page, it's just an issue of how much of what is happening.

Obviously nobody really knows (probably not even Google themselves, really) - all we can think is that hopefully competition will arise and create pressure so it's more of the good stuff and less of the bad stuff.

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