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This 97 message thread spans 4 pages: < < 97 ( 1 2 [3] 4 > >     
Smart Pricing Crashed my Google Adsense Revenue
greedy player




msg:1372892
 10:07 am on Jul 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

it's real... and it is account based, the end of google adsense (this sucks). 4-5x less income down from 500-600$ day to 100$ day... I've got no hope for Adsense anymore.

 

danimal




msg:1372952
 6:28 pm on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>I'm sorry. Are you thinking you can't pick? Adwords advertizers can indeed block their ads appearing on sites they do not desire by using the site exclusion tool for the content network.<<<

how can advertisers pick anything, when they don't know where all of their ads are showing up?

afaik, koncept has to take *all* possible publishers in his content sector, without knowing who they are, then try to figure out who the trash mfa'ers are after the fact.

that's the same thing that publishers have to deal with, because we don't know who the trash advertisers are... even when we figure it out, google refuses to give us the tools(unlimited filter) to permanently remove all of the garbage.

>>>No, the reason is because Google wants to maximize ad inventory on the content network.<<<

no, google wants to maximize it's own revenue, with little respect for the trash that advertisers and publishers have to deal with... google knew what they were doing when they split search and content into seperate areas for the advertisers.

why do you think that koncept is paying more for ads on the search side of the fence? because google makes more money that way, they don't have to split the revenue up with publishers.

why can't publishers get a real-time list of exactly who is advertising on their site? why can't advertisers get a real-time list of where their ads are showing up on the content side of the fence?

europeforvisitors




msg:1372953
 7:02 pm on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

no, google wants to maximize it's own revenue, with little respect for the trash that advertisers and publishers have to deal with...

To use your own adjective, that's just trash talk. :-)

why do you think that koncept is paying more for ads on the search side of the fence? because google makes more money that way, they don't have to split the revenue up with publishers.


No, it reflects a basic law of economics: supply and demand. By reducing the cost (and risk) of advertising on the content network, Google attracts advertisers who otherwise wouldn't run content ads. (That's also why smart pricing was introduced.)

why can't publishers get a real-time list of exactly who is advertising on their site? why can't advertisers get a real-time list of where their ads are showing up on the content side of the fence?

They can, if they sell or buy ads direct. They just can't do it with AdSense, which was designed as a scalable and largely automated ad network.

Again, the law of supply and demand comes into play. Google does a lot of research (focus groups, questionnaires, feedback from service reps, etc.), and it's certainly possible that more information will be made available for advertisers and publishers if and when (a) there's a significant and clearly demonstrated demand, and (b) Google's AdSense infrastructure makes it practical, cost-effective, and ultimately profitable to provide such data. (For evidence to support this statement, I'll point to the reporting and product enhancements that Google has introduced for both advertisers and publishers over the last three years.)

carminejg3




msg:1372954
 8:05 pm on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

the facts are whether smart pricing effects publishers earnings or help advertisers...

if advertisers can convert clicks to sales then they are happy. Either way google makes out when someone clicks on an ad, no matter where it is content or search, just have been hearing that google may take more of the pie using smart pricing since some advertisers claim they don't see any differences with smart pricing, and publishers notice lower click income.

one question whats an mfa?

whoisgregg




msg:1372955
 9:41 pm on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

one question whats an mfa?

MFA = "Made for Adsense" A site or page that is created solely to generate Adsense revenue, that fails to provide significant added value to the visitor, and whose existence could not have been justified by other monetization schemes.

Usage: ''An MFA site has stolen the content of my site and hundreds of others to make an autogenerated links directory, what can I do?"

danimal




msg:1372956
 6:02 pm on Jul 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>To use your own adjective, that's just trash talk. :-)<<<

lol! that's true :-)

>>>By reducing the cost (and risk) of advertising on the content network, Google attracts advertisers who otherwise wouldn't run content ads.<<<

no, google is not reducing the cost of anything, the ad pricing is set by the advertiser bidding process, period... koncept just proved to you that content ads sell for less, because it's an inferior product that's overrun with mfa websites.

so no matter how you try to spin it, the bottom line is that publishers are losing advertisers to google search.

earlier this year we "discussed" the google earnings report from the last quarter of 2005, and how there was more growth with advertising on google search than with google content... this is a trend that's been going on for quite awhile, and it will continue, because google makes more money when it cuts the publishers out of the loop.

>>>They can, if they sell or buy ads direct. They just can't do it with AdSense, which was designed as a scalable and largely automated ad network. <<<

who said anything about direct advertising? this thread is about adsense and adwords, and btw, all ad servers are automated... i don't understand what you are trying to say there.

europeforvisitors




msg:1372957
 7:30 pm on Jul 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

no, google is not reducing the cost of anything, the ad pricing is set by the advertiser bidding process, period...

Read Google's explanation of smart pricing.

koncept just proved to you that content ads sell for less, because it's an inferior product that's overrun with mfa websites.


Koncept doesn't speak for all advertisers; he speaks only for himself.

In the AdWords Forum, some advertisers were reporting better results with the content network even before smart pricing and separate bidding were introduced.

Also, some parts of the content network are overrun with MFA sites, and others aren't. It's a big network, with more variety than you realize.

so no matter how you try to spin it, the bottom line is that publishers are losing advertisers to google search.

Publisher revenues grew 16% in 1Q 2006, compared to 4Q 2005. Google's search revenues grew at a slightly faster rate (18%), but publishers certainly aren't "losing advertisers to Google Search"--not when net publisher revenues increased from $629 million to $723 million in the last quarter.

humblebeginnings




msg:1372958
 7:53 pm on Jul 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

no, google is not reducing the cost of anything, the ad pricing is set by the advertiser bidding process, period....

Darn, we have been discussing smartpricing for 2 years and now your telling me it doesn't exist?
Major league bummer!

europeforvisitors




msg:1372959
 8:20 pm on Jul 6, 2006 (gmt 0)

Addendum to my earlier post:

Although Google's 1Q 2006 increase in AdWords revenue (18%) was slightly larger than the increase in AdSense revenue (16%), that may be explained less by advertiser demand than by Google's growing share of the search market. According to BUSINESS WEEK, Google's share of U.S. search reached 52% in June, 2006, up from 45% a year ago.

danimal




msg:1372960
 7:25 pm on Jul 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>Read Google's explanation of smart pricing.<<<

where does it tell us exactly how much the ad pricing is lowered? do advertisers get a summary of how much money the so-called "smart pricing" saved for them?

>>>Also, some parts of the content network are overrun with MFA sites, and others aren't.<<<

what data do you base that statement on? please share it with us.

>>>Publisher revenues grew 16% in 1Q 2006... Google's search revenues grew at a slightly faster rate (18%)<<<

thank you for proving my point.

1)add up the compound rate of growth for multiple quarters.
2)tell us the last quarter that search revenue growth was less than publisher revenue growth.

europeforvisitors




msg:1372961
 10:21 pm on Jul 7, 2006 (gmt 0)

Danimal, I haven't the patience or the time to argue with you interminably, so I'll just remind you one last time that publisher revenues are growing--and if publisher revenues are growing, Google Search obviously isn't stealing advertisers away from AdSense.

A rising tide may not lift all boats, but it's definitely lifting revenues for Google Search and for the AdSense publisher network.

Green_Grass




msg:1372962
 4:05 am on Jul 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

"A rising tide may not lift all boats, but it's definitely lifting revenues for Google Search and for the AdSense publisher network."

The growth may be coming from new advertisers coming into the system. For example in India, Google is advertising very heavily promoting adWords, giving free trial coupons on major internet portals etc. As they push for growth in various countries including India and China, the ad spend is naturally going to grow and share of publisher revenue will also grow. The picture seems positive for the next few years as there is huge growth potential in the developing countries as more and more people go online.

Of course, some publisher focus may have to shift to 'content' developed for this market. Many Indian companies are still very 'Domestic(market)' focussed and with google introducing Region focussed advertising in India and other developing countries, 'content' may again be the key to growth albeit country/region focussed content..

danimal




msg:1372963
 8:41 pm on Jul 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>The growth may be coming from new advertisers coming into the system.<<<

yup, the growth in overall publisher revenue certainly isn't coming from increased epc... not when content ads are selling for less than search ads.

the adsense publisher is getting hurt right now, and there is nothing on the horizon that's going to reverse that downward spiral.

also, i have yet to see anybody *prove* that this so-called "smart pricing" saves money for the advertiser... in fact, there is evidence to the contrary.

in may of this year, robert x. cringley wrote a great article titled "google needs some ad sense"... part of it detailed the problems of a software developer who tried to use adwords to sell some arcane programs, but couldn't get the minimum bid down beneath $5.50(!) for some of his keywords.

the words he wanted to use were things like "equation editor" and "physics equations", items which clearly don't have any competition to speak of.

cringley even got jeff huber from google involved in it, but to no avail... the software developer can't afford to use adwords, which means that adsense publishers can't make any money from it.

europeforvisitors




msg:1372964
 8:54 pm on Jul 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

the adsense publisher is getting hurt right now, and there is nothing on the horizon that's going to reverse that downward spiral.

Which AdSense publisher? What downward spiral?

Some people's revenues are improving; others are getting worse. That's true of AdSense, McDonald's franchises, or just about any other business you could name.

marcel




msg:1372965
 9:04 pm on Jul 8, 2006 (gmt 0)

...the words he wanted to use were things like "equation editor" and "physics equations", items which clearly don't have any competition to speak of...

You seem to have conveniently forgotten that he was also bidding on "LaTex"...

My EPC and general earnings have risen consistently this year, although today I am suddenly seeing lots of dating and chat sites advertised and my earnings have plummeted. I'll block 'em and see how it goes... it should sort itself out soon enough, I still have faith in G :)

I really don't understand this 'Google is out to get the Publisher' thought of mind. If you don't like the way Google does their work, then find another Ad Network...

danimal




msg:3000385
 7:45 pm on Jul 9, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>You seem to have conveniently forgotten that he was also bidding on "LaTex"...<<<

ah yes, the software programmer was also bidding on "latex", which has zero competition in the adwords network? but afaik, that keyword was still absurdly overpriced, even though nobody else wanted to use it.

it's another example of how dysfunctional the system is.

go get those mfa's, it's worked well for me... blocking mfa's and removing adsense entirely from the low ctr pages has been good for the average epc.

>>>What downward spiral?<<<

i don't mind repeating it:
1)content ads are selling for less than search ads.
2)many advertisers simply refuse to advertise on the content network.

europeforvisitors




msg:3000408
 8:45 pm on Jul 9, 2006 (gmt 0)

i don't mind repeating it:
1)content ads are selling for less than search ads.
2)many advertisers simply refuse to advertise on the content network.

That's hardly new, and it certainly isn't an indication of a "downward spiral"--not when AdSense revenues and the publishers' revenue share continue to grow.

Some individuals may be having a "downward spiral." But not all are. Miserery may love company, but wishing your misery on others won't make it so. :-)

jeepers




msg:3000554
 11:44 pm on Jul 9, 2006 (gmt 0)

I do not see a downward spiral at all. Some days have been down recently, but then the next days have been really high. The result is that my average daily earning continues to increase.

Affiliate sales have also been increasing.

I should say this is the total for my sites. Some sites are down, while others up. Which is to be expected because I tried to make the combination seasonally diverse.

Maybe you need to work on your product mix, if your site continues downward.

danimal




msg:3001628
 7:18 pm on Jul 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>That's hardly new, and it certainly isn't an indication of a "downward spiral"--not when AdSense revenues and the publishers' revenue share continue to grow.<<<

efv, i don't mind repeating what's already been posted :-)
1)more publishers=higher overall content revenue for google
2)more publishers=lower average epc per publisher

it should also be obvious to everyone that there is a lot more fraud on the content side of the fence, which is just another reason why advertisers do not want google publishers... would you want your ads showing up on mfa sites?

jeepers, congrats about your overall successes... has your traffic gone up? did you improve your ad positioning? put up more pages with adsense? what yearly trends have you seen with epc? etc.

europeforvisitors




msg:3001652
 7:36 pm on Jul 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

which is just another reason why advertisers do not want google publishers...

Yeah, they're so unhappy with the content network that they bought only $928 million's worth of AdSense ads in the first quarter of 2006 (a tiny 59% increase over the same quarter a year earlier). :-)

humblebeginnings




msg:3001701
 8:19 pm on Jul 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

which is just another reason why advertisers do not want google publishers...

I am an advertiser and I love Adsense publishers!

would you want your ads showing up on mfa sites?

If it sells I don't care.

jeepers




msg:3001729
 8:40 pm on Jul 10, 2006 (gmt 0)

jeepers, congrats about your overall successes... has your traffic gone up? did you improve your ad positioning? put up more pages with adsense? what yearly trends have you seen with epc? etc.

Most of my income comes from affiliate sales and I realized after the Florida update, that it was critical to have huge amounts of content in relation to affiliate links. So I have taken to writing vast amounts of USEFUL information about the products that I sell. I am proud to say that if I removed all of my affiliate links and promos, that my site would still be worth viewing.

On my recently written pages I have about 5,000 words of unique content. There is one adsense leaderboard at the top. And about 10 affiliate links. One google search box at the bottom.

I am constantly adding pages and rewriting older ones. So yes my traffic is up.

koncept




msg:3002138
 5:47 am on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Koncept doesn't speak for all advertisers; he speaks only for himself.

In the AdWords Forum, some advertisers were reporting better results with the content network even before smart pricing and separate bidding were introduced.

Also, some parts of the content network are overrun with MFA sites, and others aren't. It's a big network, with more variety than you realize.

Yes. I should have been careful to say that I find content network of poor quality in my particular industry. I am sure that in some industries the content network would be brilliant. I happen to be in one of those industries that is "overrun with MFA sites" as you suggested. (not ringtones, haha)

danimal




msg:3002982
 7:08 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>Yeah, they're so unhappy with the content network that they bought only $928 million's worth of AdSense ads in the first quarter of 2006<<<

yeah, they're so unhappy with the content network that thousands of 'em forced google into a $90 million dollar class action click fraud settlement... but even that didn't begin to cover all the fraud, so there have been multiple lawsuits to have the settlement overturned.

>>>I am constantly adding pages and rewriting older ones. So yes my traffic is up.<<<

can't go wrong by using good content to increase traffic! but monitoring the epc is what gives you an idea of how google is treating you.

europeforvisitors




msg:3002996
 7:16 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

danimal, the proof is in the pudding--or, rather, in the quarterly earnings reports. AdSense revenues: Up. Publisher earnings: Up. Until or unless those trends change, your pronouncements of doom will have about as much credibility as a sandwich sign that reads "THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH."

rbacal




msg:3003034
 7:56 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

danimal, the proof is in the pudding--or, rather, in the quarterly earnings reports. AdSense revenues: Up. Publisher earnings: Up. Until or unless those trends change, your pronouncements of doom will have about as much credibility as a sandwich sign that reads "THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH."

I agree with your point, but I have one of my own, since you often bring up the annual report numbers. I do NOT believe that the numbers you constantly invoke are even close to fine-grained enough (or explained properly), to draw ANY important conclusions from. They are general indicators of "something", and that's all. Constantly using them to do anything other than that is likely to mislead, and confuse.

[edited by: jatar_k at 8:24 pm (utc) on July 11, 2006]
[edit reason]
[1][edit reason] fixed quote tag [/edit]
[/edit][/1]

europeforvisitors




msg:3003150
 9:28 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

rbacal, the numbers that I've quoted are proof that AdSense expenditures are increasing, and that AdSense publisher revenues are growing, too. There's nothing misleading or confusing about that.

Quantam Goose




msg:3003161
 9:35 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

You Adsense guys need to look at the Adwords forum - specifically this:

[webmasterworld.com...]

europeforvisitors




msg:3003163
 9:38 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

We've already got at least one AdSense Forum thread about landing pages:

[webmasterworld.com...]

gregbo




msg:3003195
 10:10 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

it should also be obvious to everyone that there is a lot more fraud on the content side of the fence, which is just another reason why advertisers do not want google publishers... would you want your ads showing up on mfa sites?

This seems to be borne out on lots of blogs and forums I've been reading recently. (It's not gotten much coverage on big media, but perhaps they're waiting for the week that G reports earnings to roll out these stories.)

WRT past G earnings, I think they should be taken with a grain of salt, at least until G's liability in the existing click fraud lawsuits becomes a bit more clear.

europeforvisitors




msg:3003286
 11:27 pm on Jul 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

WRT past G earnings, I think they should be taken with a grain of salt, at least until G's liability in the existing click fraud lawsuits becomes a bit more clear.

I'd take unsupported claims that "the adsense publisher is getting hurt right now, and there is nothing on the horizon that's going to reverse that downward spiral" with a much larger grain of salt. Google, at least, has a history of steady AdSense earnings growth (for Google and for publishers) from quarter to quarter to quarter.

rbacal




msg:3003532
 3:55 am on Jul 12, 2006 (gmt 0)

Google, at least, has a history of steady AdSense earnings growth (for Google and for publishers) from quarter to quarter to quarter.

Here's the problem about drawing conclusions based on these numbers. It's the things you do NOT know that make the difference.

For example:

Do you know exactly the breakdown of income amongst different types and sizes of "publishers"?
(ie. we do not know where in the publisher community the money is going to).
Do we know the breakdown of income revenue coming in in terms of sources and types and sectors?

...and dozens of other issues. You simply can't justifiably say much about, let's say, how regular folks like you and I are doing based on these numbers, or even say much about advertising trends, because the numbers are two general.

As an example from the non-virtual world, if you're looking at general sales numbers, and you run a wheel chair company, and you see that sales are up this quarter, you can't draw many conclusions about the health of the industry unless you have more information about the demographics, and other factors that help you understand what's really going on.

Bottom line: The numbers you quote have to do with "A" bottom line, but they have almost no implications for any one of us as you present them. Both on the pub side and the adv. side.

This 97 message thread spans 4 pages: < < 97 ( 1 2 [3] 4 > >
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