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Smart Pricing Crashed my Google Adsense Revenue
greedy player




msg:1372892
 10:07 am on Jul 2, 2006 (gmt 0)

it's real... and it is account based, the end of google adsense (this sucks). 4-5x less income down from 500-600$ day to 100$ day... I've got no hope for Adsense anymore.

 

ann




msg:1372922
 8:56 am on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

I'll try to be but the unfairness sometimes just gets under my skin.

(Gritting teeth and frowning)

Ann

dollarshort




msg:1372923
 11:51 am on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

I think some of your major advertisers dropped out of the a bidding war, sending your epc down. Remember an advertiser pays $.02 more than the next highest bidder even if thier bid is way over.

Web_speed




msg:1372924
 1:29 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

it's real... and it is account based, the end of google adsense (this sucks). 4-5x less income down from 500-600$ day to 100$ day... I've got no hope for Adsense anymore.

I feel your pain. My account used to make approx $100-$120 p/day for almost two years and then since around Jan-Feb of this year (on) it hardly makes $20-$35 p/day with the same amount/sources of traffic.

I have since removed the code from 98% of my pages and replaced by (content relevant) affiliate links. Adsense is slowly but surely going down the tubes if you ask me.

Re: Smart pricing is tied to conversion.

This perfectly explains (NOT) the good amount of sales i am getting from the affiliate links currently replacing all the AdNoSense banners.

carminejg3




msg:1372925
 1:40 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

mine has cut in half, from the same time.... and is slowly dropping... also clicks are dropping...

so is it really smart pricing or smarter browsers?

If you ask me I really think people have gone google ads blind....

They have learned to recognize the ads by google.... and avoid clicking them, in addition we as webmasters have been spoiled not having to worry about selling advertising space on our sites and now have grown to depend on google so much, that we don't even click on adsense if its on another site that we are interested in the ads....

europeforvisitors




msg:1372926
 1:46 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

You most likely will be smart priced according to the conversion rate of the people you send to them in relation to the advertisers' global conversion rate.

Nicely put. Also, you may be smart-priced if Google's statistical analysis indicates that clicks from your type of content (a forum, news story, etc.) is less likely to convert for the advertiser than are clicks from Google search results. Google explained this when smart pricing was launched: "For example, a click on an ad for digital cameras on a web page about photography tips may be worth less than a click on the same ad appearing next to a review of digital cameras."

For more, see the Google AdWords News Archive for April, 2004:

https://adwords.google.com/select/news/sa_mar04.html

Newer Webmaster World members may want to go back and read previous Google AdSense Forum threads about smart pricing, which should be easy enough to find since there are so many of them.

Side note: If you go back and read those previous threads, you'll learn that "conversion" doesn't necessarily mean "transaction." It can mean a business action such as a request for information, a registration, reading a certain number of pages on the advertiser's site, etc. AdSense isn't just an advertising tool for e-commerce and affiliate sites; it's also a tool for generating leads.

Web_speed




msg:1372927
 2:01 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you ask me I really think people have gone google ads blind....

Don't think this is the real reason. I'm a webmaster since 1996 and still click relevant ads over pages containing topics of interest.

This was the real power of AdSense, serving content relevant links....this to my opinion will never go "ad blind" (not to the same same extent as image ad banners anyway)...

The reasons for the decline IMO:
1) Buggy smart pricing system that constantly err on Google's side ;)
2) Better equipped advertisers with the option to differently bid (usually much lower) over the content network
3) Crappy site targeted CPM ads that pay close to nothing and flood the entire content network...Google gets paid by impression (much better then CPC for them), multiply this by billions upon billions of impressions per day.....you get the picture.

Web_speed




msg:1372928
 2:10 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

Side note: If you go back and read those previous threads, you'll learn that "conversion" doesn't necessarily mean "transaction." It can mean a business action such as a request for information, a registration, reading a certain number of pages on the advertiser's site, etc. AdSense isn't just an advertising tool for e-commerce and affiliate sites; it's also a tool for generating leads.

According to this my sites used to convert well or generate great leads or whatever name you want to call it and then at around 1st of february this year they suddenly all stopped converting at once.

Yea right....makes perfect sense now ;)

[edited by: Web_speed at 2:20 pm (utc) on July 3, 2006]

carminejg3




msg:1372929
 2:11 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

You to.... stopping on feb 1 lol...

that is possible, i also noticed my ads recently are not matching the pages very well.... well on some pages...

also, i think your on to something with the massive bidding on any keyword, I decided to block these sites since my page may be ranked for
say

dog toys
puppy toys
dog and puppy toys

yet dog toys has no high bidders so the massive bid sites get in for pennies, since they have a better term then puppy toys which may pay 25 cents pc.

I would rather have the small niche sites then the massive internet powerhouses showing on my ads

celgins




msg:1372930
 2:34 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

Side note: If you go back and read those previous threads, you'll learn that "conversion" doesn't necessarily mean "transaction." It can mean a business action such as a request for information, a registration, reading a certain number of pages on the advertiser's site, etc. AdSense isn't just an advertising tool for e-commerce and affiliate sites; it's also a tool for generating leads.

Good point, EFV. But IMO, this is the unreliability of conversion rates.

Supposedly, there is a 30-day cookie used to track conversions. But what happens to a lead after the cookie expires? Like your statement mentioned, a conversion (especially in my case), doesn't necessarily mean a "transaction". So if a user visits my site, bookmarks it, doesn't come back for 31 days, but becomes a loyal visitor after that.... some poor site owner gets Smartpriced because his conversion rate (coming through my site) wasn't great.

It seems that the entire development of Smartpricing was based on ecommerce and transactions, and many sites (that aren't based on selling goods), suffer as a result.

I guess we could say, "some sites don't work well with Adsense", but I think that's only true when Smartpricing is in full effect.

whoisgregg




msg:1372931
 2:35 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

hmmm... I have been using adwords for some time now and I don't ever remember receiving a "smartpricing discount".

You also don't have access to the exact price you paid for each of those content clicks, only the averages. Within the average exists the range of sites you paid your full bid to appear on because of lots of competition for the ad space and sites you paid a much lower portion of your bid because the site's traffic has been discounted by smartpricing.

Why should non converting clicks be held against the publisher?

The fallacy with that argument is that the advertisers effort to convert each visitor remains mostly constant. In smartpricing, the publishers are competing against each other (essentially) to determine a standard for the value of well-converting visitors. Because the content network *does* have it's members that provide dramatically different traffic, it's in the advertisers and publishers interest for their to be a different valuation for the different sites.

carminejg3




msg:1372932
 2:43 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

smartpricing seems to be a lazy way to make advertisers happy.

punish one publisher because his visitor didn't like the page they landed on, truth is they should drop "smart pricing"

and this would make sure that advertisers had a page that converted...

Think about it, if your paying $1 per click you are going to make sure you have a good converting page, yet if you are paying only .05 per click, who cares if 19 of the people just got tricked by your fancy adwords ad..... hench all the adword ringtone spam

rbacal




msg:1372933
 3:00 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)


smartpricing seems to be a lazy way to make advertisers happy

Or, it's a way to encourage advertisers to advertise on the content network, so ads will display on your site. Don't know if that is important to you or not.

carminejg3




msg:1372934
 3:07 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

but advertisiers know that only so many clicks will come from the google search site, where they can get a lot more clicks by going out to the content network.

all i know is I'm going back to handling most of my advertisers.... it was more work, but right now, google is on a downtrend for us and others so it isn't my site

may try out ypn, they should get it right sooner or later, geeze even if they simple read the page title and match the ads to that

europeforvisitors




msg:1372935
 3:08 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

IMHO, Whoisgregg made the most important observation of this thread in the final paragraph of message #40.

In any case, smart pricing is a fait accompli, and two years' worth of complaints from unhappy publishers haven't made it go away. If you think you're being hurt by smart pricing, and if you want to make more money from AdSense without increasing your traffic, you need to find a way to make your content and audience more valuable to advertisers.

danimal




msg:1372936
 8:26 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>Google has warned that aggressive filtering can have a negative impact on earnings.<<<

you are referring to a comment by celgins there, but just for the record, the o.p. clearly stated in his second post: "his filter and mine are both blank."

mfa filtering has never been shown to lower earnings; in fact, it's been quite the opposite.

greedy player, this discussion about the so-called "smart pricing" is a waste of time... what you need is concrete action to improve your earnings.

have you been able to isolate which page designs are giving you the lowest epc? or what traffic sources to what pages have resulted in lower earnings? since you've been doing this for two years, you should have a lot of channel data to work with?

carminejg3




msg:1372937
 8:33 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

i started using filters last night.... started removing large network sites and a few ringtone spam sites, seen a nice increase in cpm already....

will test for a few weeks...

my site is designed for smaller sites, with niche markets, so i want my ads to be from smaller sites as well, not just sites that can put together 100k keyword lists

europeforvisitors




msg:1372938
 9:02 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

all i know is I'm going back to handling most of my advertisers.... it was more work, but right now, google is on a downtrend for us and others so it isn't my site

Why not have both? Run-of-network display ads for general advertisers, and contextual AdSense ads for pages on subtopics that don't generate enough impressions to interest targeted advertisers?

As for downtrends, some publishers are seeing a downtrend, others are seeing an uptrend, and others aren't seeing much change at all. (Mind you, there's nothing new about that: It's business as usual, which shouldn't be surprising in an auction-based system that has constant changes in supply and demand.)

koncept




msg:1372939
 10:03 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

I use Adsense sparingly on my site, and I have a fairly large Adwords account.

As an adwords advertiser I can tell you this... I don't really know about smart-pricing but I do know that the content network is not the same quality traffic as the search network. When Adwords made a change in early April that saw most advertiser's minimum bids rise, I couldn't afford to give the same $/click for the content network anymore. Even though I want as much traffic as I can get, the quality of content traffic persuaded me to pay the extra $ for the seach network, and lower my content bids drastically. (10 cents or less in a competitive niche.)

I'm not trying to say that adsense publishers don't send quality traffic, but it is never going to be as qualified as when the user types the query directly into a search field.

What was my point?... oh yeah.. adsense revenues may be going down due to the higher minimum bids for search network that have been imposed on advertisers. Some of us are simply bidding less and less on content to balance out the ROI.

europeforvisitors




msg:1372940
 10:17 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

I'm not trying to say that adsense publishers don't send quality traffic, but it is never going to be as qualified as when the user types the query directly into a search field.

In the AdWords forum, some advertisers have reported better luck with the content network than with search. That's probably because search click clicks are "qualified" only by keyword, while clicks from a niche content site are more likely to:

1) Be from an audience that's interested in the topic, and/or...

2) Be from prospects who have reached the content site on their own or via search, read about the product or service, and only then clicked on an ad.

Note that I said "niche content site." The quality of clicks for, say, a ham-radio transceiver or antenna is much more likely to be high when the clicks come from an established ham site than when they come from a general directory site or from a PODUNK PRESS article on ham radio. The long-term challenge for AdSense and its competitors is to successfully target by keyword and audience, not just by keyword.

koncept




msg:1372941
 10:37 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

Problem is, when I choose to advertise on the content network, I don't get to discriminate between quality niche sites and your dreaded MFA sites.

Adsense publishers get to filter out sites whose ads they don't want seen on their pages. Imagine the opposite -- If I could easily filter out MFA sites that are Showing my ads, I might be willing to pay more.

And then there's the 'advertise on this site' option where I can choose specific content sites. But I don't want to pay per impression, I want to pay per click.

So because google includes all these MFA sites along with your quality niche sites in the 'content network', I am not going to be able to pay what I would if it was just your quality sites without all the MFAs.

So there's another reason for Adsense publishers to hate MFAs. :)

Play_Bach




msg:1372942
 11:24 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

> Adsense publishers get to filter out sites whose ads they don't want seen on their pages.

Publishers don't get to approve/reject ads being shown on their sites in advance. Instead what they get to use is a competitive filter - after the fact - with a limit of 200. Many publishers would like to be able to have some say about what ads or advertiser get airplay, but they don't. Also, keeping an eye on what ads are being served is impractical for large sites with hundreds of pages and moreover, Google serves up different ads to different geographies. Best publishers can do with the filter is go after what they see and perceive to be the worst offenders and hope that it'll somehow make a difference.

europeforvisitors




msg:1372943
 11:29 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

Problem is, when I choose to advertise on the content network, I don't get to discriminate between quality niche sites and your dreaded MFA sites.

True, but MFA sites are obviously a bigger problem in some niches (or for some keyphrases) than in others. For some topics, advertisers have reported difficulty in getting enough clicks/impressions.

wmuser




msg:1372944
 11:49 pm on Jul 3, 2006 (gmt 0)

I have noticed very little changes in revenue

danimal




msg:1372945
 7:54 pm on Jul 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>Even though I want as much traffic as I can get, the quality of content traffic persuaded me to pay the extra $ for the seach network, and lower my content bids drastically. (10 cents or less in a competitive niche.)<<<

koncept, thank you for posting that... i think that the reason you aren't allowed to pick what sites to advertise on is because google makes more money that way... after all, who needs publishers when you can keep the ads on your own search engine? google gets all of the advertising income for itself.

rbacal




msg:1372946
 8:01 pm on Jul 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

koncept, thank you for posting that... i think that the reason you aren't allowed to pick what sites to advertise on is because google makes more money that way... after all, who needs publishers when you can keep the ads on your own search engine? google gets all of the advertising income for itself.

I'm sorry. Are you thinking you can't pick? Adwords advertizers can indeed block their ads appearing on sites they do not desire by using the site exclusion tool for the content network.

You have to do it campaign by campaign, but you can do it.

However, I don't think it can be done for the search network.

europeforvisitors




msg:1372947
 8:32 pm on Jul 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

i think that the reason you aren't allowed to pick what sites to advertise on is because google makes more money that way... after all, who needs publishers when you can keep the ads on your own search engine? google gets all of the advertising income for itself.

No, the reason is because Google wants to maximize ad inventory on the content network.

If Google wanted to keep "all of the advertising income for itself," it wouldn't have launched the AdSense network. But it did launch the AdSense network, because there was no way that it could meet advertiser demand through its SERPs alone.

koncept




msg:1372948
 10:27 pm on Jul 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

I'm sorry. Are you thinking you can't pick? Adwords advertizers can indeed block their ads appearing on sites they do not desire by using the site exclusion tool for the content network.

I know this, but am I really going to go around looking for ads on content network so I can impliment this? True, I have blocked certain publishers because I saw tons of clicks from them in my logs (and felt their sites would not provide qualified traffic). But in the end I just thought - I'll take content clicks but I'm not gonna pay too much, partly because I'm not interested in monitoring the network, and partly because I figure the less I spend, the less attractive my (low paying) ads are to click fraudsters.

europeforvisitors




msg:1372949
 1:53 am on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

I'll take content clicks but I'm not gonna pay too much, partly because I'm not interested in monitoring the network, and partly because I figure the less I spend, the less attractive my (low paying) ads are to click fraudsters.

1) How do the fraudulent publishers know what you've bid? (I'm an AdSense publisher--though not a fraudulent one--and I have no idea what a click from a given ad that I see may be worth.)

2) Isn't it possible that, the less you spend, the more likely it is that your ads will turn up on marginal sites that the high-bidding advertisers have learned (out of necessity) to block?

koncept




msg:1372950
 6:39 am on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

1) How do the fraudulent publishers know what you've bid? (I'm an AdSense publisher--though not a fraudulent one--and I have no idea what a click from a given ad that I see may be worth.)

2) Isn't it possible that, the less you spend, the more likely it is that your ads will turn up on marginal sites that the high-bidding advertisers have learned (out of necessity) to block?

I'm not thinking that anyone knows what I bid, but I do know that my particular industry is very, very competitive. If I bid low then most likely my ads won't show up on the content network very much (and they don't), but if they do they'll only cost me 8 cents or so. I know this doesn't make much sense but I'm just trying to limit my exposure, but I'll take a few clicks if they are going to be that cheap. (and just for comparison, I am bidding up to 60 cents a click for these same keywords on the search network)

As for being shown on marginal sites because the higher bidding advertisers have blocked them? I think the number of times this would happen would be, well, marginal. (statistically speaking of course.)

So what's an advertiser doing here? I have always stayed in the Adwords forum but have started to be more active in this one because I think it's best to understand both sides of the equation, and I've reintroduced a few adblocks to my site as an experiment. It's kinda funny how many of the complaints from either side are so similar, and in the end it's more the system that's at fault than either advertisers/publishers. Sigh.

carminejg3




msg:1372951
 2:16 pm on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

koncept,

Thank you for the posts. I think its good for us publishers to see what google is doing at the advertiser level... My biggest concern is that now google is a public company they are worried about stock prices, not how they got to be where they are.

I wasn't aware that you as an advertiser couldn't choose a site to appear on, without paying per impression. We have dropped enough income in the adsense program to look into other networks, in addition ad clicks have dropped in half so something is up, whether our site or at g.

So I'm going to start testing other networks out.

Do you use ypn? and if so how are they working out for you?

danimal




msg:1372952
 6:28 pm on Jul 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>I'm sorry. Are you thinking you can't pick? Adwords advertizers can indeed block their ads appearing on sites they do not desire by using the site exclusion tool for the content network.<<<

how can advertisers pick anything, when they don't know where all of their ads are showing up?

afaik, koncept has to take *all* possible publishers in his content sector, without knowing who they are, then try to figure out who the trash mfa'ers are after the fact.

that's the same thing that publishers have to deal with, because we don't know who the trash advertisers are... even when we figure it out, google refuses to give us the tools(unlimited filter) to permanently remove all of the garbage.

>>>No, the reason is because Google wants to maximize ad inventory on the content network.<<<

no, google wants to maximize it's own revenue, with little respect for the trash that advertisers and publishers have to deal with... google knew what they were doing when they split search and content into seperate areas for the advertisers.

why do you think that koncept is paying more for ads on the search side of the fence? because google makes more money that way, they don't have to split the revenue up with publishers.

why can't publishers get a real-time list of exactly who is advertising on their site? why can't advertisers get a real-time list of where their ads are showing up on the content side of the fence?

This 97 message thread spans 4 pages: < < 97 ( 1 [2] 3 4 > >
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