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Are MFA's profitable or are publishers causing problems?
MFA publisher creating new sites
farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 8:45 pm on May 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

There is a particlar someone who has published sort of a homemade MFA site with about 50 pages, each on a different topic and each with a few lines of useless text then lots of AdSense ads.

It seems this person(s) is just copying the same site and publishing it again and again under different domain names. The new domains keep popping up on my site in AdSense ads and I keep blocking them.

Is it possible that enough publishers are blocking such sites and the MFA's are having to constantly switch domains?

Or is that too optimistic and instead, are the MFA's so profitable they are just repeating the same thing under a number of domains? Since they are advertising their MFA sites using AdWords, I don't think they have any concern about a duplicate content penalty.

FarmBoy

 

Hobbs

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Msg#: 14257 posted 9:10 pm on May 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

>Is it possible that enough publishers are blocking such sites

That's impossible given the sheer number of MFAs, it's a loosing battle if fought by publishers alone. That MFA owner is just multiplying his profits with the power of copy and paste nothing more, maybe he is dodging some blocking too, but for every publisher that blocks him there are hundreds that are not even aware of his ads on their sites.

bobothecat



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 9:22 pm on May 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

Is it possible that enough publishers are blocking such sites

It'll make more of a difference when Google finally starts blocking such sites. Some serious quality-control of publishers needs to be taken care of first though, since I can only imagine that some are working hand-in-hand.

Double-dip?

swa66

WebmasterWorld Senior Member swa66 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 9:59 pm on May 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

Suggest for google to tackle part of the problem:

- give publishers the option to use regexp expressions instead of the low limit of sites you can block

- Build a limit on what MFA sites can earn by making clicks always less rewarding then the amount efectively paid on adwords. Basically top off the amounts earned of the top paying clicks agaisnt all clicks on adwords. Easy algorithm, MFA sites will have to buy their clicks outside the adsense network and Google will not hear complaints about MFA sites anymore.

- allow publishers to set a minimum payout where they would rather get their alternate ads then to next to nothing cick of an MFA.

- make sure MFAs have *no* way to influence smart pricing and get their clicks at a discounted rate. (What would ever "convert" on an MFA site?)

security56

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 10:25 pm on May 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

Regarding this, do google checks the websites before they allow them into adwords. Or how does it work,

I personally hates this mfa sites, they make me no money and there 1000 of them. I hope google does something about.

As someone mention before if people that go to our sites and click on ads that take them to this site, eventually they will just stop clicking. But that's jsut a fart fetch theory :)

Content_ed

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 10:27 pm on May 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

I've suggested to Adsense that they use the contents of a large sampling of publisher's competitive ad filters as a consensus gun to eliminate, or at least trigger a review of MFA's. I get the feeling from corresponding with them that they would like to do something about the MFA's, but it's not a priority next to click-fraud, which has gotten them sued repeatedly. When's the last time you saw a news story on CBNC about MFA's?

I'm also fairly convinced that recent changes to the algo Adsense uses to select ads have changed the game for the better, or at least given publishers more control. If you continually prune the worst performing pages from your site, you'll never get MFA's (for any stretch of time) on the better performing pages, and you can methodically free up room in the filter for emergencies that way.

farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 2:33 am on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

I get the feeling from corresponding with them that they would like to do something about the MFA's...

It's encouraging that you're reading something that makes you think that way. All I'm hearing is...well...silence.

FarmBoy

david_uk

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 6:05 am on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

Last time I had a rail at them on the issue, I got the impression that it does concern them, but I'd agree that as they aren't getting sued over the issue it's not number 1 priority.

The impression I got was that click fraud aside, they are concerned about the quality of ads on the network, and they did tell me that are "Looking at" options to allow publishers more control. They know full well we use the filter to block MFA's and the technique works. Now what all that means is anybody's guess, and I wouldn't like to make any predictions on what (if anything) will happen.

The other impression I got was that whilst Adsense support were well aware of the issue, and it was a concern for them, Adwords really really really don't give a stuff. They just sell ads and aren't remotely concerened about the issue as it doesn't affect their little corner of the empire.

Unfortunately it seems that Google suffers "Big company" mentality. I.E. departments within the company are much more concerned with in-fighting and empire building than ensuring the company actually survives beyond the next pay cheque!

jetteroheller

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Msg#: 14257 posted 6:16 am on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

Is it possible that enough publishers are blocking such sites

Several of the largest newspapers in Austria use AdSense on their online version.

They block nothing. I see many painfull ads, I have in my filter list, appearing on their sites.

farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 11:38 am on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you continually prune the worst performing pages from your site, you'll never get MFA's (for any stretch of time) on the better performing pages...

I've certainly seen MFA's on some of my best performing pages.

Also, unless you have a a very small site and are able to view each page with AdSense ads several times a day, how do you know you're not getting MFA ads? And how do you know what people in other geographic areas are seeing on your pages?

FarmBoy

farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 11:41 am on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

...They just sell ads and aren't remotely concerened about the issue as it doesn't affect their little corner of the empire.

Unfortunately it seems that Google suffers "Big company" mentality...

I think some good quality competition can provide some motivation, if it can be developed

FarmBoy

Content_ed

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 2:09 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

I've certainly seen MFA's on some of my best performing pages.

What was the advice from the Guru on the mountain that Steve Martin said stayed with him through his life?

I only check our pages for MFA's when the eCPM falls. That means I never look at most of our pages, but when I do happen to look at the best performing pages, I rarely see an MFA. Google is always trying new ads on pages, but if they don't convert well, they drop them. It's the poor performing pages that tend to accumulate the MFA's because they don't perform well even with quality ads. Some of that is targetting, some of it is ad phrasing (think headlines) and some of it is the lower bid price required allowing MFAs to appear continually, rather the the guest showing Adsense gives MFAs on strong pages as the algo searched for even better converters.

Also, unless you have a a very small site and are able to view each page with AdSense ads several times a day, how do you know you're not getting MFA ads?

MFA's don't convert well, that's why those of us with strong content sites tend to get upset about them. If they converted as well as legitimate advertisers, we'd probably complain about it in bars, but ignore it on boards. I know I'm not getting MFAs when I'm making money.

And how do you know what people in other geographic areas are seeing on your pages?

I don't know it and I can't worry about it. I just focus on trying to maximize our revenue for our exisiting content.

JuniorOptimizer

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 3:46 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

The best way to ensure you don't have an MFA problem is do what I did: turn off your Google Adwords account permanently.

At the least, opt out of content partners, because there's just way too much fraud to make money.

farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 4:02 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

MFA's don't convert well, that's why those of us with strong content sites tend to get upset about them.

If MFA's are appearing as one of 3 or 4 ads in a display and different ads are being rotated on your site, how do you know how well a particular ad is converting?

Also, I have strong content sites and my problem with MFA's is not whether or not they convert well - my problem is I think they frustrate people who click on them and those people - my visitors - will be less likely to click in the future. I've seen a number of people on this board express the same concern.

And then a secondary problem, IMO, is most of the MFA's I see seem to clearly be in violation of AdSense's terms. If AdSense is not going to enforce the terms - then fine - just change the terms to allow everyone to build these type sites.

Maybe I've missed it, but I don't think I've seen many people complain about MFA's based on a low conversion rate.

FarmBoy

danimal



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 4:03 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

>>>I've certainly seen MFA's on some of my best performing pages.<<<

it could also be relative to how many advertisers there are in your sector, how many ad blocks you are displaying, etc.

i don't see too many mfa's on my best pages, but the same advertisers on a low-earning page on my other website will occasionally show an mfa.

sometimes you can hit the refresh button, and it'll bring up an mfa or two.

farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 4:04 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

The best way to ensure you don't have an MFA problem is do what I did: turn off your Google Adwords account permanently.

How would having or not having a Google AdWords account affect whether MFA's are shown in AdSense on my site?

FarmBoy

farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 4:09 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

it could also be relative to how many advertisers there are in your sector, how many ad blocks you are displaying, etc.

It could also be relative to the amount of bids placed on keywords related to the page content. If a term gets high bids, MFA's might be more likely to try and whisk a visitor away for <$X in hopes of later earning significantly >$X off that visitor.

FarmBoy

milanmk

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 7:37 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

Instead of thinking why the hell MFA's are ruling my website and paying just few cents per click, think the other way round, why other conventional ads are not appearing on my website?

In general, chances of showing any ads on your pages mostly depend on ROI and CTR. As MFA's are having attractive keywords, their CTR is high compared to conventional ads. Moreover, if your site does not attract any advertisers who actually sell a product or service then in an advertiser’s point of view your websites ROI will be low (like my own website).

Defining a Conversion

An AdWords conversion occurs when someone clicks on your AdWords ad and performs a behavior on your website that you recognize as a completed sale or collected lead.

All this together adds up into Google’s algorithm while selecting ads for your pages and over the time it gives way to MFA’s to show up on your pages. Once they had an entry their CTR will be high compared to conventional ads, then on your site will be always welcoming MFA’s.

Few months back I started blocking MFA’s and my earning were going high for few days as other conventional ads starts showing up on my pages. But as I told you, there were no conversions through them and so SmartPricing eventually took them off and again started showing other MFA’s.

I continued this process of blocking MFA’s till I reached the limit of 200 domains. Finally I gave up! I was wasting my precious time in blocking those MFA’s rather than creating some good content for my website.

Now until AdSense makes some serious efforts to regulate those MFA’s I will be watching as they rule my website pages forever.

Milan

farmboy

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Msg#: 14257 posted 8:53 pm on May 25, 2006 (gmt 0)

Now until AdSense makes some serious efforts to regulate those MFA’s I will be watching as they rule my website pages forever.

Sounds like you're advocating dumping your filter's contents and just letting MFA's run wild. Hasn't that experiment been tried and reported on by others on this forum?

Also, my sites tend to get a lot of repeat visitors. Even if several people reported getting a better CTR and better overall earnings by just doing nothing and letting the MFA's have their way, I don't know if I like the approach in the long run. I think those repeat visitors will eventually tire of clicking and landing on MFA sites.

FarmBoy

Alioc

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 1:02 am on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

And how do you know what people in other geographic areas are seeing on your pages?

Adsense preview tool has the option to choose Geo-target. The drop-down list covers all countries supported by AdSense.

david_uk

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 5:51 am on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

In general, chances of showing any ads on your pages mostly depend on ROI and CTR. As MFA's are having attractive keywords, their CTR is high compared to conventional ads. Moreover, if your site does not attract any advertisers who actually sell a product or service then in an advertiser’s point of view your websites ROI will be low (like my own website).

I'd agree with the high CTR comment, but I don't think the second point is quite so simple. You can have a high ROI site (like mine) yet still attract MFA's. This is where I get annoyed with the algorithm for not taking into account historical data of how ads work on sites. I've emailed them on this several times, and whilst not confirming they take no account of historical data, they make no effort whatsoever to deny it either.

There are enough good quality ads in my sector that work very well and pay very well. I think one of the problems is that the sector my site is in is percieved as having a high click value, hence it seems to me that there is a fair amount of MFA activity because of this. The sooner they realise it isn't as high as various keyword tools claim and move on the better! It's a battle to keep the worst offenders off, but one I'm on top of.

As a contrast, my new site that I've just started work on in a different sector simply doesn't seem to have an MFA problem. Not because of my block list either. My wife and I have different accounts, and my new site is under her name and has no block list at all.

So I think that sector, and percieved value of keywords also come ino the equation somewhere along the line.

Scurramunga

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 6:41 am on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

farmboy wrote:
Maybe I've missed it, but I don't think I've seen many people complain about MFA's based on a low conversion rate.

I think that there are many people who at one time have stated their belief regarding MFA's = low conversion = smartpricing.

I only wish that there were some tangible evidence to either back this claim or dispel it once and for all

Hobbs

WebmasterWorld Senior Member hobbs us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 6:56 am on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

MFA's = low conversion = smartpricing
Scurramunga, you really think MFA report back on conversion? It's commonsense no proof needed. MFA strive on low CPC otherwise their whole business model collapses.

Scurramunga

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 7:12 am on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hobbs,

Yes I agree the only for an MFA to operate viably is to buy into cheap CPC opportunities.

As am not too familiar with the exact process of advertisers reporting via Google Analytics. I wonder then, if MFA's don't report back, how does the myth regarding low converting MFA's triggering smartpricing hold true?

Hobbs

WebmasterWorld Senior Member hobbs us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 7:18 am on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

>how does the myth regarding low converting MFA's triggering smartpricing hold true?

sorry I did not understand the question
But I think it was 21_blue that once posted about them reporting back just enought conversion to stay in the game but not true numbers or any numbers that would raise the cpc

Scurramunga

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 7:58 am on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

I was under the impression that there have been posts written by members expressing concerns that MFA's were bad converters because they didn't sell a real product. I'm fairly sure this view has been expressed fairly often.

Enter another myth regarding smartpricing being triggered by low converting sites and you have the theory that MFA's are bad converting sites that are likely to trigger smart pricing.

Scurramunga

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 9:53 pm on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hobbs,
You asked:
"Scurramunga, you really think MFA report back on conversion?"

What I am trying to argue is that if mfa's don't report back, then there is no basis to the theory that badly converting mfa's actually trigger smartpricing.

I was trying to point out that there has been some disscussion from time to time about MFA's converting badly and triggering smartpricing

Hobbs

WebmasterWorld Senior Member hobbs us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 10:11 pm on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

>if mfa's don't report back, then there is no basis to the theory that badly converting mfa's actually trigger smartpricing

As I understand it, there is no incentive for the MFA to report good conversion that could possibly hike up the publisher's eCPM and the MFA cost per click.. But the MFA owner plays the system only doing symbolic reporting here and there to appear legit and not hike up the prices, perhaps someone with an AdWords account can explain this better.

I still don't understand the logic in your if then statement, because no reporting means zero conversion, and zero conversion conjures the might smartpricing scissors, but smartpricing has never been one of my favorite topics anyway.

Scurramunga

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 14257 posted 10:32 pm on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

because no reporting means zero conversion

Ok, this makes more sense. I did not know that the absence of a report would be interpreted negatively ie. zero conversions.

annej

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Msg#: 14257 posted 11:23 pm on May 26, 2006 (gmt 0)

Instead of thinking why the hell MFA's are ruling my website and paying just few cents per click, think the other way round, why other conventional ads are not appearing on my website?

Exactly, and I think one reason we don't get more legitimate ads is that so many AdWords advertisers opt out of content. And why do they opt out? Because of sites like MFA sites.

I wish that someone (Google, Yahoo, MS or anyone) would build a quality network that only takes quality ads and publisher sites.

I think those repeat visitors will eventually tire of clicking and landing on MFA sites.

I don't like getting MFAs and other ads that take my visitors to a scammy looking site because it reflects poorly on my site and on adsense in general.

The problem is this, even if I block my MFAs people will have seen those ads on many other sites so it's really a matter of all the ads across the internet reflecting poorly on AdSense. So even those of us who don't get many MFA ads are still hurt indirectly by their ads.

This 31 message thread spans 2 pages: 31 ( [1] 2 > >
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