| 6:14 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)|
" Opt-in can mean either single or double opt-in. Double opt-in is when you send an immediate confirmation and do not add that recipient until he has responded to confirm. Single opt-in will run you afoul of some spam laws in certain situations. Double opt-in has never resulted in a spam lawsuit. The rest of this is just the same tired old commercial email arguments from 1998. "
Sweebie you are correct. Usually if you want to run a mailing list you simply do a double opt-in. In which a confirmation email (no promotional stuff in the confirmation email) is sent to verify a users email address and that they have access to that address. This is PERFECTLY legal to do and the email or further emails (once verified) are not considered spam. If they are reported you can have a verified log of the user opting in (which does hold some weight).
BUT others here are correct in that unsightly webmasters can SPOOF this opt-in/double opt-in aspect of email marketing which then reduces the weight of any logs created by the webmaster.
Most generally you won't have a problem with people reporting your newsletter as spam if there is double opt-in measures (but still possible and a huge pain to fix).
On the brighter side, RSS feeds seem to be the way to go to keep your visitors up to date. They can add it to thunderbird, My Yahoo acounts, personalized Google accounts, etc. There is no worry about spam. The sad thing is that still many regular folks don't use them or understand them at all.
[edited by: arubicus at 6:24 pm (utc) on Mar. 9, 2006]
| 6:21 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)|
A couple observations. First, Pockan thinking he can get a consistent 5,000 page views for every 10,000 on his email list is dreaming, especially if he sends them daily as he plans to do. Within a short time of doing so his list will be extremely poorly performing.
Also, I *hate* annoying daily emails even if I did opt-in. After only a few days of getting them they are instantly deleted without even a glance. Even weekly is too frequent. IMO, only monthly or even less frequent is OK.
| 6:27 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)|
"Also, I *hate* annoying daily emails even if I did opt-in. After only a few days of getting them they are instantly deleted without even a glance. Even weekly is too frequent."
I will have to agree with that!
| 6:40 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Good thread Pockan, this really give us food for thought. Although there may be reasons to discount your business model as less profitable than you initially stated ($ 400,- a day), the model of course will be profitable to some degree. By now I am really curious: did you apply this model yourself and if so, how profitable is it for you?
| 6:55 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Some interesting responses in this thread. I do have to point out that some people are getting confused about what is an opt-in list and what is not. A real opt-in list is not one where spammers have compiled addresses and called it an opt-in list or where your address has been maliciously added and checks have not been made to verify the request. That's a phony list of addresses that may not opted in at all - therefore you cannot truely call it an opt-in list and we shouldn't refer to it as such to avoid confusion.
If you consent to receive mailings but do not specify a limit to the frequency, or cannot do so but decide to sign up anyway, that is your responsibility. It may be short-sightedness on the part of the mailer to deluge their readers or it may be that you are over-reacting. We all have different preferences and so, for example, a mail a week may be useful to some and annoying to others. You cannot whinge about it being spam when you have opted-in. If you receive too many mails then opt out.
Of course, mailing list owners should think about providing options for a reader to specify a limit to the frequency of mailings.
To the poster who deletes 'my' spam - I think you confused me with someone else. ;)
| 9:31 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|Without content a website cannot make money (is my opinion) |
I dare you tell that to Alex Tew
| 9:50 pm on Mar 9, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|NO, it is NOT SPAM when you register somewhere and check that little box that says "YES, Keep me updated about site events"! |
I didn't! Someone else did using my email address. Can you understand that?
|That would be like Brett sending an email to all WebmasterWorld members and someone forgetting they registered here and complaining they were spammed. |
You'd better ask Brett. And ask him why he sends confirmation request FIRST OF ALL. Without clicking on the link that is IN that confirmation request email you would never be registered as WebmasterWorld member.
|I just got sick of dealing with the wackos, like people that can't read what I write here, and stopped sending email. |
I just got sick of spammers pretending they use opt-in email service!
|Now my members are lucky if I'll even reply to them let alone broadcast an email ;) |
I think you are lucky if you still have members.
| 2:55 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
humblebeginnings- "did you apply this model yourself and if so, how profitable is it for you?"
Answer: Not yet
I shall try,but before to that,to make sure this model will work
| 5:19 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
This is my first post here. I just wanted to encourage pockan.
I have been adding thousands of pages of content to only 5 web sites over the past 8 years. I have been building my opt-in mailing list just from sign-ups on my web sites (I pay $0 for advertising) and have almost 30,000 subscribers. I send out a newsletter once a week. My sites all have a common theme and people are interested in new articles I post every week. I have found some subjects more profitable than others and try to emphasize those topics. I get very few spam complaints and actually many, many compliments on my USEFUL newsletter.
Two weeks ago I had my first $400 day--on a day I send out my newsletter. Those days are twice as profitable as other days and add thousands of dollars to my bottomline overall. My mailing list is ensuring returning traffic to my web sites and not relying on Google's algorithms.
| 5:42 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
sahm : (I pay $0 for advertising)
Tell me how did you do initial promotion of web sites with no ads?
| 9:16 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|I think you are lucky if you still have members. |
And you're lucky I haven't flamed all over you for making assumptions about my emailing habits.
I had 2 lists, one was monthly update, if that often, and the other was weekly for fanatics in my niche that couldn't get enough. Members chose what to sign up for and it was with a confirmation emailing to verify it wasn't malicious.
Don't make assumptions about what I'm saying as I don't feel obligated to provide my life history with every post so when you assume it will always come back to haunt you. If you want to pick on someone with such silliness, I would suggest finding a target that can't defend themselves as it's NOT open season on Bill if you haven't noticed.
| 9:53 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
incrediBILL is right - people do report you for spam after signing up for more information.
I had a lady in December who emailed me regarding being kept informed regarding an item. Two months later the information became available and I replied to her email. Now NOTE this was not even a mailing list. I replied to her email - with her original mail to me in the message area.
She then emailed back telling me to stop emailing her with spam and that she was going to report me for spamming.
I politely replied saying that I wasn't spamming her and that if she looked at my email in full she would see that it included her original request for the information I had provided.
I wasn't even earning out of this - simply providing a service.
Guess what? She still reported me! But the funniest thing of all is that she reported me to my company by letter! I daren't reply to the letter in case I am prosecuted for sending her junk mail by post :-)
| 9:55 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
How can anyone accuse someone of being a spammer without any prior information on that person's list management practices? I'm astonished at the unwarranted attack. Sheesh.
On the subject of email marketing...the model of driving repeat traffic to websites through email newsletters is as old as the web. That was one of the prime drivers behind email marketing in the first place.
It is not a fast-track to Adsense riches though. Building and maintaining an email list that generates consistently high responses is not easy.
Even if you can get the pageviews out of it, repeat visitors are not going to maintain a constant adsense CTR through time. Think about it.
| 10:11 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Don't fight But go through the the federal Spam Report.
Federal Government Scam and Spam Report
Report it to the Federal Trade Commission. Send a copy of unwanted or deceptive messages to firstname.lastname@example.org. The FTC uses the unsolicited emails stored in this database to pursue law enforcement actions against people who send deceptive spam email.Let the FTC know if a "remove me" request is not honored. If you want to complain about a removal link that doesn't work or not being able to unsubcribe from a list, you can fill out the FTC's online complaint form at www.ftc.gov. Your complaint will be added to the FTC's Consumer Sentinel database and made available to hundreds of law enforcement and consumer protection agencies.
Whenever you complain about spam, it's important to include the full email header. The information in the header makes it possible for consumer protection agencies to follow up on your complaint.
Send a copy of the spam to your ISP's abuse desk. Often the email address is email@example.com or firstname.lastname@example.org. By doing this, you can let the ISP know about the spam problem on their system and help them to stop it in the future. Make sure to include a copy of the spam, along with the full email header. At the top of the message, state that you're complaining about being spammed.
Complain to the sender's ISP. Most ISPs want to cut off spammers who abuse their system. Again, make sure to include a copy of the message and header information and state that you're complaining about spam.
How Can I Avoid Spam Scams?
The FTC suggests that you treat commercial email solicitations the same way you would treat an unsolicited telemarketing sales call. Don't believe promises from strangers. Greet money making opportunities that arrive at your in box with skepticism. Most of the time, these are old fashioned scams delivered via the newest technology.
Here are some of the most common scam offers likely to arrive by email:
Chain letters. Chain letters that involve money or valuable items and promise big returns are illegal. If you start one or send one on, you are breaking the law. Chances are you will receive little or no money back on your "investment." Despite the claims, a chain letter will never make you rich. For more information on chain emails, check out www.ftc.gov/chainmail.
Work-At-Home Schemes. Not all work at home opportunities deliver on their promises. Many ads omit the fact that you may have to work many hours without pay. Or they don't disclose all the costs you will have to pay. Countless work at home schemes require you to spend your own money to place newspaper ads; make photocopies; or buy the envelopes, paper, stamps, and other supplies or equipment you need to do the job. The companies sponsoring the ads also may demand that you pay for instructions or "tutorial" software. Consumers deceived by these ads have lost thousands of dollars, in addition to their time and energy.
Weight Loss Claims. Programs or products that promote easy or effortless long term weight loss don't work. Taking off weight, and keeping it off, requires exercise and permanent changes in your diet. All the testimonials and guarantees in your email are not worth the space they take up on your hard drive.
Credit Repair Offers. Ignore offers to erase accurate negative information from your credit record. There's no legal way to do that.
Advance Fee Loan Scams. Be wary of promises to provide a loan for a fee, regardless of your past credit history. Remember, legitimate banks don't issue credit cards without first checking your credit.
Adult Entertainment. You may get an email from an adult entertainment site that claims to offer content for "free" and doesn't require a credit card number for access. All you have to do is download a "viewer" or "dialer" program. However, once the program is downloaded onto your computer, it may disconnect your Internet connection and reconnect to an international long distance phone number, at rates between $2 and $7 a minute. Be skeptical when you see opportunities to view "free" content on the web.
Do you want more? haha contact me
| 11:10 am on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|Studies show each 2 visit will bring a click on ads |
This is the most hilarious part of the initial post. Some banner ads have CTR as low as 0.001 %.
| 1:45 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|How can anyone accuse someone of being a spammer without any prior information on that person's list management practices? I'm astonished at the unwarranted attack. Sheesh. |
You should better read again that thread before asking further questions. It was already stated many times. Some people just pretend they use opt-in email service, while this is not the case!
|NO, it is NOT SPAM when you register somewhere and check that little box that says "YES, Keep me updated about site events"! |
They think if SOMEBODY has typed MY email address on their registration form "and checked the little box that says...", they have the right to send garbage to my mailbox... Well, this is not enough! You have to send a confirmation request to that same email address that was passed to your email list. If you do not do that, you are a spammer and should be prosecuted as such. Look only how many people above claim to maintain an "opt-in" list without even knowing what is that (double(?!) opt-in).
|... I do have to point out that some people are getting confused about what is an opt-in list and what is not. A real opt-in list is not one where spammers have compiled addresses and called it an opt-in list or where your address has been maliciously added and checks have not been made to verify the request. That's a phony list of addresses that may not opted in at all - therefore you cannot truly call it an opt-in list and we shouldn't refer to it as such to avoid confusion. |
| 5:37 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|it's NOT open season on Bill |
Be vewwy vewwy quiet... I'm hunting wabbit-bill.
| 7:19 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
I haven't paid for advertising because of a combination of my search engine positions and continually writing and distributing articles with links to my web sites. I don't rely on either one, but they work together well. If you write informative articles they will be reprinted both online and offline. I've been quoted in national magazines because of articles of mine that have been seen on other web sites.
| 8:44 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
I ran a paid monthly email newsletter back in 2003, and one of the people who PAID to get the newsletter reported me for spamming him. He said that he never opted in to get my newsletter, even though I emailed him a copy of his 2CO order confirmation.
Never did get an apology, or a retraction of the spam complaingt to my hosting company. In fact, he went and did a chargeback at his credit card company, even though I offered him a refund, twice.
I'll never forget that, and will probably never publish another email newsletter for as long as I live.
All it takes is one nutcase to ruin your online business.
| 10:56 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|All it takes is one nutcase to ruin your online business. |
Best advice ever!
| 11:05 pm on Mar 10, 2006 (gmt 0)|
On the crazy responses topic:
I get many angry phone calls and emails from people saying that my company is on their credit report.
I wish I could figure out which adwords ad is triggering this. They a costing me a $1 each time from the phone message + the adwords ad. + the earache
On getting to $400 income - I've found the easiest way. I started at $1200 per month and then got wacked by smart pricing, Google search algo changes, a dup content penalty... bingo! $400 per day.
<edit for spelling>
| 3:53 am on Mar 11, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|Some people just pretend they use opt-in email service, while this is not the case! |
I really don't care what other people do as I'm an anti-spam advocate from WAY BACK and am very careful about how I manage my lists and contact people and get REAL irate when accused of spamming.
When I ran a hosting service for 5 years we had a ZERO TOLERANCE policy and anyone caught buying lists that generated a bunch of ISP complaints were disabled immediately.
Not only that, over the years I've personally been responsible for having at least a thousand (probably conservative #) of spammers sites shut down when they're stupid enough to leave too many trails.
So don't accuse me of this crap, not now, not ever.
| 8:24 am on Mar 11, 2006 (gmt 0)|
But this OP is some thing else
Verified Optin (Ethical Optin) can never be spam
Optin email simply means that the user has agreed to accept advertisements and information regarding certain specified topics, such as business newsletters, coupons for particular services, or messages announcing new products or sales events.
Optin email requires the target to opt-in by clicking a link, registering, or confirming his or her email address. Some advertisers even use a double opt-in email option, requiring at least two separate actions in order to receive a message or a newsletter, to insure that no one can claim to have been spammed. Consumers are always free to opt-out of such mailings at any time.
[edited by: jatar_k at 4:30 pm (utc) on Mar. 20, 2006]
| 9:48 am on Mar 11, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|On getting to $400 income - I've found the easiest way. I started at $1200 per month and then got wacked by smart pricing, Google search algo changes, a dup content penalty... bingo! $400 per day. |
How right you are. I'm sorry but I haven't read through the whole thread but it seems to me that anything that can get you to the top fast can take to back to the bottom just as fast, if not faster. My suggestion to 400 a day, build slowly over time, build on a solid foundation i.e. content. Not for the quick buck but for retirement income.
| 9:57 am on Mar 11, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|Verified Optin (Ethical Optin) can never be spam |
There is ONLY one opt-in! "Verified opt-in" sounds like wooden wood?!
Because UNverified opt-in (UNethical Opt-in) is NOT opt-in!
Because UNverified opt-in (UNethical Opt-in) is SPAM!
Because using "UNverified opt-in" means you are sending opt-out spam!
And if you receive my opt-out request you simply pass my email details to another spammer pretending they don't send spam because somebody opted-in their email list with my email address and generously offering me opt-out and so on, and so on... Very often, however, this is one and the same spammer just changing their domain name, "from" field, mail server IP, relay IP etc. There is no way I can prove it was not me opting in spammer's email list. Practically, spammers have no legal responsibilities if they are allowed to use "UNverified opt-in".
That is why ONLY spammers can state that "UNverified opt-in" is opt-in, hence, a legal way to clutter my email with garbage.
| This 55 message thread spans 2 pages: < < 55 ( 1  ) |