| 6:12 pm on Jan 18, 2006 (gmt 0)|
The BIG advertisers are handled by a direct sales force and support team. That is how Overture got started and has been selling ads to the big guys for years. Adsense and YPN are designed for the smaller advertisers. There are a lot more smaller websites that large sites so when Google went after the small guys they acually went after the LARGER market. If you look at their earnings the little guys like us are they ones that make them the most money. That is why there is now a YPN for Overture for they missed the primary market of small publishers. So what is my point? Well if any of them are going to succeed they are going to have to focus on the small publisher like us and that is where you are going to see the biggest changes in revenue splits, customer services and programs that will retain publisher loyalty. I would not be suprised that they implement a sliding scale like Amazon where the more you make the bigger the commission.
| 1:29 am on Jan 19, 2006 (gmt 0)|
both yahoo and msn have already succeeded, big time... they both have huge portal sites, that sometimes bring in advertising revenue on a scale that is comparable to what prime-time tv networks get for comparable lengths of ad runs.
some of you people need to go back and re-read the original article, it's on info week.
try to think about the future... beyond adsense... then you'll understand what the article was about.
| 3:49 am on Jan 19, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Well, this *is* the AdSense forum, and the thread is titled "Microsoft sets its crosshairs on Google's AdSense," so it isn't entirely unreasonable for us to discuss MSN (or YPN, for that matter) in an AdSense context. Unless, of course, we want to risk having the moderators move the thread to another forum. :-)
| 2:08 am on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Okay, in terms of Microsoft setting its crosshairs on Google ... as an analogy, Sony was dominating the games console market by a massive margin when Microsoft decided to wade in. With resources and determination and through sheer bloody mindedness Microsoft managed to carve themselves a decent market share. Sony might still have the edge, but the console market hasn't been quite the same since.
The point is that if another company (Microsoft or otherwise) with sufficient resources decides that they want a piece of the action, and they want it badly enough, then they will get it.
And a situation where you have one or more big companies in direct competition is never going to be a bad thing for mere mortals.
| 5:25 am on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Microsoft is too late to the game. They can hire all the researchers they want but they don't have any reason for people to visit their sites.
I don't know why anyone would use MSN if they didn't have Hotmail.
| 4:11 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|I don't know why anyone would use MSN if they didn't have Hotmail. |
Thats a good point: would anyone even use MSN if they didnt use Hotmail and the MSN messenger client? Not to mention a browser that is integrated to the OS...
| 4:19 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Hence GoogleTalk, Gmail and FireFox referrals
| 5:35 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Both Yahoo and MSN have the same opportunity to chip away at Google's market share, for both advertisers and publishers. And it's pretty simple, they just need to provide publishers with more money for the same amount of ad space, and then need to provide advertisers with more clicks/conversions for a cheaper ad spend.
They can do it by coming up with a better mousetrap... something that converts better, matches ads better, etc. Or they can have a better sales/marketing team to convince advertisers to try out ads.
Or, they can just throw cash at the problem.
Microsoft has demonstrated with the XBox that they're willing to buy their way into an industry. In the case of Adsense, all they need to do is constantly watch Adsense and make sure that advertisers are paying a few cents less a click, and publishers are making a few cents more. They just need to keep that up for months, years, decades, and they'll make significant headway against Google.
| 5:44 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
MSN is missing a very large martket. That is the SMALL publisher like us that really do dominate the web when it comes to ad space. Right now all they have is MSN as a portal and it is already full of ads. Yahoo (Overture) realized that Google out foxed them by getting to the small publishers through Adsense. Now Yahoo is doing the same wth YPN. MSN still has no plan that is public to do this. Really can not be successful with out both the advertiser and the publisher and MSN only has advertisers with no place to show their ads.
| 5:50 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|Yahoo failed... that's why YHOO stock was sold off after hours today - They came upo short onn their revenue projections and shareholders don't like that... |
If Yahoo couldn't compete effectively against Google AdSense... how the HECK do you think Microsoft is going to do it? MS has MUCH LESS search users, therefore much less traffic to potentially monetize... AND they can't improve upon it because they already lost the average Netizen attention...
Yahoo isn't even out of BETA yet ... so how can you make the clame they've lost the match? You can't. I'm trying Yahoo right now and I can tell you it's much better than I was getting with Adsense. Interesting to see if this holds up. As I see it it's not over 'til the fat check sings.
| 5:52 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
As a consumer, when I needed information I would automatically go to MSN search. Could have been because MSN search automatically came up, at home, school, work, etc. I never had any problems with their search results so I stayed with them unless I couldn't find something, then I would go to google. I honestly, just started using google on a consistant basis last year. I rarely use Yahoo for search which seems to surprise most people.
Now as a website owner [Go me!] I get most of my referrals from MSN (what a coinkydink) and Google. Very little from Yahoo.
So to make a long story short. I would be more than happy to advertise on MSN first. Google second, and whatever change I have left over can go to the other guys.
Wheeew! That was long :-)
| 6:11 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
I respect your comments but the market data would tell you that you are not the average user of search. According to searchenginewatch.com
""Google is still the king—they really are a clear favorite across all of the search categories," said Dr. Bonny Brown, Keynote Systems director of research.
Google outperformed its competitors in all 13 business success drivers measured in the study. Yahoo put in a strong second place showing in 12 of the 13 drivers measured. The top "impact drivers" that affected user perceptions were general search quality, home page appeal, special features and perceived site performance.
Ask Jeeves ranked third, followed by MSN Search and AOL's public web search site. The study also looked at AOL's member-only search and it would have tied Ask Jeeves in third place had it been available to all users."
Also in addition to this Google and Yahoo get over 80% of all searches. Leaving MSN way back in the pack.
If you are looking to generate business the first to use is Google, the second is Yahoo and then it is a toss-up with all the rest.
| 6:25 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
Don't you just miss "Married with children"!
Let me repeat what I and others said here: How big a search engine you are has no effect on how good your ad network will do, you can even grow bigger than AdSense without owning a search engine, that's why MSN and Yahoo have a shot, can they make more money than Google? That's is another story..
| 6:27 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
I think I see what Truezeta is saying. Google may be the top search engine, but MSN is the second ranked most popular website behind Yahoo...(according to Alexa).
This means that more people are seeing MSN. If you take into consideration that IE is the most popular web browser; the fact that MSN is the default web URL in IE (either when you purchase a new computer, or when you download IE for the first time); and the fact that most users don't change this default setting.... something has to be said for MSN and it could influence the ad market in the future.
IMO, it is difficult to say that such a financially powerful company (Microsoft) can't make a dent in Google's ad market.
| 6:33 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
MSN the portal is second BEHIND Yahoo. Google does not have a portal as of yet. Tell me how you are going to advertise on MSN? They do not support PPC click on their portal. They do with their search engine results but again they are a distant third when it comes to search. I guess I am lmissing the logic here. How is advertising with MSN better?
| 7:50 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|Microsoft is too late to the game. |
There was a ton of word processing products when Word hit, same with Excel and so on and so forth. Being first doesn't mean you're best and being last doesn't doom you to failure.
Being PERSISTENT, which is what MS is, makes you a contender in the long haul.
| 8:12 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|MSN the portal is second BEHIND Yahoo. Google does not have a portal as of yet. Tell me how you are going to advertise on MSN? They do not support PPC click on their portal. They do with their search engine results but again they are a distant third when it comes to search. I guess I am lmissing the logic here. How is advertising with MSN better? |
Like I mentioned earlier, MSN is the #2 (overall) website out there. Whether it be a portal, clothing store, surfboard shop, etc. Being #2 means that your traffic capacity is much higher, therefore you have a better chance to influence internet users.
Truezeta mentioned why he/she was an avid MSN search user, and it had to do with the fact that Microsoft (through IE and its default MSN Search) reaches more people than Google. When you have that type of clout, you can influence a lot.
Sure you can't advertise on the MSN portal, but when they do launch AdCenter and offer competitive revenues to their web advertisers/publishers, they will be able to compete with Google. I'm not saying they'll drive Google into the ground, because they will not. But could they compete? I believe so.
The reason Yahoo and Microsoft (MSN) are #1, #2 respectively, is because they are portals. Not only that, but they are portals with huge search engine capabilities.
Think about those newbies who wish to develop their own websites and make money. Are they more likely to get an opportunity through MSN or through Google?
Which one is seen by more people?
| 8:36 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
I agree that MSN and Yahoo are GREAT portals. But that does not help your PPC advertising. Google is number one in PPC because they have a program that allows them to put more ads on more websites than anyone else and they did that without a portal. The data will tell you that yes we all have a favorite portal page that we use as our home page for our browser but that is just the first page we go to. After that ,if you are like most people, you will then start searching for websites and if you are like most people you will use Google first and Yahoo second. Can MSN get back in the game? Of course they can but it is not because of their MSN portal. If that was the case Yahoo and MSN would own the search market and not Google. The only way MSN gets back in is with a "Real Search Engine" and a advertising program that addresses the small publisher market like Google has and Yahoo is now in beta with. I think it is at least a year before MSN can compete with Yahoo and maybe another year to take on Google. MSN has not been able to use their OS, Browser or Portal to penetrate this market and I think Microsoft has put to much faith that we all will just follow them with their marketshare and their technology. I think the average user is a lot smarter than that and Google and even Yahoo have fiquered that out.
| 8:47 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
>>>Well, this *is* the AdSense forum, and the thread is titled "Microsoft sets its crosshairs on Google's AdSense,"<<<
the original article referenced by the website listed in this thread doesn't mention adsense, or even contextual advertising, for that matter... so we are indeed way off topic, lol.
the point of the original article was the development of new advertising technologies, period.
>>>Google's online advertising business has been operating for some time now with barely any competition<<<
that is not correct... as others have pointed out, the portals are huge, and they have huge advertising revenues to match... all of which are taking serious market share away from both google and adsense users.
| 8:58 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
I am not losing any advertisng to a portal. People don't go to portals and just hang out there all day. Also how much advertising revenue is a portal bringing in? Well take a look at Google revenue numbers. They are making more money in Advertising (adwords & Adsense) than the WHOLE MSN (including their ISP operation) makes. Why do you think the management was changed at MSN. Is was not because they were doing a great job. MSN is being redone for the third time and Microsoft is having a hard time wondering why they don't own the internet. Again portals are just entry points. They are not destinations.
| 10:02 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
It won't help your PPC advertising now, but again.... YPN and MSN AdCenter are in beta.
You mentioned, Wiley, that Google is number one in PPC because they have a program that allows them to put more ads on more websites. That means that Google spearheaded an ad/publisher network targeted towards the little guys (us). This only means that Yahoo and MSN didn't think of it first. It doesn't mean that they can't make a huge dent with their ad programs if and when they target the little guys.
And where are most of the little guys? Using MSN(IE) on the PC.
I just think the fact that they are the #1 and #2 websites (portals), means that they have large user bases, which means more people see them.
When you have that many people under your belt, you can make things happen.
| 10:04 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
|the original article referenced by the website listed in this thread doesn't mention adsense, or even contextual advertising, for that matter... so we are indeed way off topic, lol. |
Next time, then, try:
Or, better yet, pay to walk past the bouncer into Webmaster World's VIP section at:
| 11:56 pm on Jan 21, 2006 (gmt 0)|
those url's are not relevant to what i'm talking about... which illustrates how difficult it is to have a conversation in a bass-ackwards forum that won't let you post the actual url of the article.
>>>Here's an interesting article I just read over at Dailytech.com<<<
go to dailytech dot com, article 287, notice how it references articleID=177100374, at information week dot com? dailytech was trying to drive traffic by adding the terms "google adsense" into the title of their article.
the original informationweek article did not say anything about google, adsense, or contextual advertising.
wiley... you are getting hurt big time by those portals, because it's lost advertising revenue that we could be getting thru adsense... msn is bringing in millions of $$$ in ad revenue.
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