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MFA,, how much do they pay?
thaidomain




msg:1452922
 3:51 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Scanning through my webpages I notice quite a few MFA adsense advertisements. Not obsessively I delete some of them, because I find it a rather cheap way of making money, and because I assume that they do not pay a lot for their keywords.
But maybe the last assumption is not right? After all, most of my pages have a rather high eCPM. So to get listed maybe they have to pay for it?
Is there any hard evidence on how much these MFA websites pay for their advertisements. What I mean is, if they would pay around 10 cent per click, I could probably live with that, but if they pay only 2 cents on average, it certainly would be worthwhile to try to remove them all regularly, just for income reasons.

 

ogletree




msg:1452923
 4:16 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Jenstar made a good post [webmasterworld.com] about not using the filter for that kind of thing.

david_uk




msg:1452924
 4:54 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yes, it's a good post, but it discusses the general disadvantages of random blocking of GENUINE advertisers. It doesn't address the blocking of MFA ads.

I'm with Jenstar in personally not blocking genuine advertisers. I don't block genuine advertisers unless there is a persistent problem with mis-targetting, and in that event I will email Google first before blocking, as targetting issues can often be dealt with at their end.

However, with blocking MFA's it's a different story. It's been my my experience that blocking MFA's does reduce CTR, but increases the bottom line, and you don't see scummy scraper ads on site, which visitors appreciate. I've recently installed one of the tracking scripts, and I notice that page views of visitors who click on ads are mostly more than visitors that dont, so visitors who click on ads come back to the site. I firmly believe that this is because of the quality of the site, and the quality and relevance of the ads.

I started blocking MFA's last July when epc hit rock bottom. I hadn't blocked any ads to that point, believing that Google were correct in showing highest paying ads. But at the same time I looked at the ads on my site and was dismayed to see MFA's ads appearing all the time when there seemed to be no shortage of genuine ads. I simply could not believe that MFA's could pay more that real advertisers (major ones).

The immediate result to blocking was that I saw a dip in CTR by nearly 60%, but the revenue gained from the increase in what real advertisers pay per click meant that the bottom line $$ figure was not affected. In the long term, I've seen a steady CTR and I've also seen the knock on effect of smart pricing liking the improved quality of clicks.

It's my belief that there are major flaws in the targetting algorythms Google use. Although their intention is to show the highest paying ads (as Jenstar points out it's to their advantage too) this is over-complex and often has unintended consequences.

Firstly "Highest paying" does not mean (as most assume) the highest bidder. It means who Google "Think might" be the best option. They take into account many factors in this decision - one of them being CTR on an ad over the network in general. The basic principle is that an ad with a CTR of 10% but $0.05 will give you a better return than one that pays $1 per click, but has a really crummy ctr. Fine in principle, however that ad may have a low ctr on the network in general, but it might do really well on your site - especially if your site is the perfect niche for that advert.

The unfortunate effect of this is that I have seen good ads removed from my pages and replaced with MFA's repeatedly. It's my belief that Google's algorythm gives zero weighting to how an ad has historically performed on your site. I think they are aware of this major flaw and have been trying to address this by various means, but I'm not at the point I can trust their algorythms and remove the MFA's from my block list.

Why do MFA's have a high CTR? I can only really make a comment here that's relevant to my niche. Most of the ad copy written by genuine advertisers in my niche is deadly dull, whereas the ad copy written by the MFA's is often very eye catching. Hence they may be getting more clicks as a result.

I would agree with Jenstar that caution should be exercised with blocking, but removing MFA's only has worked very well for me in the long term. If you embark on blocking, you need to keep a very careful eye on things.

thaidomain




msg:1452925
 5:15 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the replies.
Just an add-on question. Is it not possible that there is something like a 'rejection-index' where Google Adsense keeps track of how many times ads from a particular advertiser are blocked. And uses this somehow to make that advertiser pay more, and/or reduces his exposure in general?

hsfd




msg:1452926
 5:24 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Please pardon my ignorance (and thanks in advance for patience) - I'm relatively new to AdSense and am constantly trying to bone up on quite a few issues - but can someone tell me (or at least point me to an existing thread) about the characteristics of, or how to spot, a MFA site?

ogletree




msg:1452927
 5:53 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

I have made a lot with adsense and I don't mess with the filter at all. That is only their to get rid of competiters or things you don't think should be on your site. It is not to help you make more money. There is a better chance of you loseing money by doing what you are talking about. Spend more time getting more visitors that will make you money for sure and don't even look at your ads.

jetteroheller




msg:1452928
 6:03 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Many seem to have the false assumption, one visitor, one click.

But somebody on a shopping tour discovering a page with an AdLink to all the vendors what he is searching for can also click maybe 10 times.

When the first 3 clicks are leading to MFAs, he shure stops to evaluate further ads.

This is an extrem example, but I am shure, that CTR is negative influenced by MFA.

Keeping the ad space clean should lead to a higher CTR.

jetteroheller




msg:1452929
 7:12 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

or how to spot, a MFA site?

The general:

There is no real content. The content reads like automatic generated by software.

A sensless bla bla only to give a search engine the false idea, that there would be content.

Some times, the content is written smaller than the text in the ads and also with less contrast to the background.

My famoust MFA example uses a generator like

[keyword.example.com...]

What ever keyword, You type in front of the domain name, the software generates a shopping page with this keyword.

For example, You can also type
widgets.example.com
and You look on a shopping page with great resoruces to buy widgets.

[edited by: martinibuster at 8:02 am (utc) on Jan. 11, 2006]
[edit reason] Widgetized & examplified url. Example.com is set aside for this purpose. ;) [/edit]

david_uk




msg:1452930
 7:21 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Rejection index - only Google can answer that. I rather suspect they don't though. Publishers can block ads for any reason they like. One example being that the targetting bot may select an ad relevant to your topic, but for some reason you feel that ad is contrary to your site. Another example may be that you want to block a direct competitor. There isn't any reason to penalise either advertiser, so why keep a log of if it's been blocked or not?

How to spot an MFA site. Have a look at ads appearing on your site and patterns will become obvious. Clearly you need to use the adsense preview tool to do this! My basic question is "Are they selling good or services, or does the site have genuine information content?". If they are, they count as a genuine advertiser. To me, a MFA site will have little or no content and, lots of ad blocks. I also count most directory sites as MFA's.

Ogletree:- In a previous discussion on blocking MFA's a few months back, ASA confirmed that blocking MFA's to make more money was a legitimate use of the filter provided that you had effective means of monitoring any changes you made to the list to ensure that you aren't adversley affecting your income. Since blocking MFA's, my income has on average doubled. OK, not all of that is due to blocking, but as I have made very few changes to the pages with ads on over the last few months I suspect that rather a large percentage of it is.

Have you never looked at the ads that are on your site and wondered if you couldn't make more money from real advertisers that from the scrapers, click traps and all the other crap we know doesn't pay well? Google don't know what works best on our sites - we as webmasters do. Therefore our experience of our visitors profile is in my view an essential part of making monetisation work.

A block list doesn't have to be large to be effective. You just have to be careful what you block. I never use the preview tool for blocking - I have to physically see the ad appear on the site before I block. My block list is not that large, and I occasionally go though it and root out sites that have dissapeared / no longer serving ads.

Jean




msg:1452931
 8:03 am on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

I never use the preview tool for blocking - I have to physically see the ad appear on the site before I block.

How do you see ads appearing in other countries?

david_uk




msg:1452932
 4:54 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Most of my traffic comes from the UK / US. To view the US ads I simply use a US proxy to view the ads through, and I can see the UK ads as I live here.

Jean




msg:1452933
 5:02 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yes, using a proxy is probably a better option than the preview tool (and still having to use IE in order to do so! come on Google give us a preview tool for Firefox!) but only works if your traffic is limited to a very few countries.

HughMungus




msg:1452934
 8:40 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

You'd think that the advertiser who is paying you most is the one who will show up highest, right? (I mean, that is how an auction is supposed to work). But maybe Google likes MFA sites more than a normal advertiser/ecommerce site. I can see why they would. If a user clicks an ad on your site that goes to a MFA site, Google gets paid twice (and, of course, as many times as there are MFA sites leading to other MFA sites, haha).

jomaxx




msg:1452935
 9:01 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

IMO the original poster has it about right: in order to make money, MFA sites will be bidding as low as they possibly can. If you're in a niche where the clicks typically pay pretty well and/or there is a deep pool of ads to choose from, I would definitely recommend filtering them.

There are a number of factors besides raw bid level that determine which ads get matched to your site - CTR and "relevance", for example. I'm sure the bigger MFA sites are aware of them and are working them to their advantage in order to get the maximum number of clicks at the lowest price.

ogletree




msg:1452936
 10:13 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

I still say don't mess with filters in the hopes to make more money. There is a better chance of loseing money by doing this.

Scurramunga




msg:1452937
 10:55 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hi everyone,
This is my first post and I have only been with Adsense for a few short months, but I have really enjoyed reading through this forum.

I would like to reply to David's post regarding screening MFA's. I was considering joining to start a thread on this a few days ago, until I saw this thread which addressed some of the same concerns.

From my limited experience as I publisher, I must concur with what David says about the need to filter MFA sites. Over the last few months I have had some success in progressively rasiing my, ctr, epc and income with gradual optimisation changes. Each time I take a positive step up with optimisation I see immediate benifits. However, some time after going two steps foward I always seem to take a step backwards as I can only assume (putting market forces aside) that smart pricing begins to kick in.

Recently I had made changes to my ad formats. The result being that the changes had more than doubled my income. Within a couple of weeks though I noticed epc on certain pages had dropped dramatically. In some cases where it did drop ctr had also dropped and in other cases it had not. So in an effort to prevent my entire site being affected and after not having used my competion filter for some time, I embarked on a mission to try to identify why these changes were occuring. Using the preview tool I noticed that there were a number of MFA sites advertising on the affected pages, so I killed them off and removed ads from the worst affected pages. Immediately I saw positive results and as I mentioned earlier I had used the filter in my earliest weeks of Adsense with positive results, mainly to kill the off topic ads and poor content sites.

This time it was the MFA's that I was specifically after and interestingly enough I found a couple of ads that led to nowhere. By ads pointing to nowhere I mean there was one ad that pointed to a site that returned a server error and another that led to a blank page. I waited two days before I acted on these and finally removed them also. I can only speculate, but I am of the assumption that MFA's can not pay all that well as they are only there to bottom feed on cheap clicks in order to make a profit. So if the MFA's are coming in cheap, doesn't that contradict Google's line about the best ads being served first? I think that Jomaxx's suggestion is looking very plausible.

I any case, most MFA's, especially the scrapers and directories are utter crap and of very small benefit to readers. Every time I check their PR it is almost certainly to be a zero, so if they are useless form a search engines perspective, then how could it be useful from the perspective of trying to provide genuine quality to the reader?

David, I have a question. Can you recommend any US and UK proxy's so that I can view real time ads on my site without having to use the preview tool? are there any free ones?

TheDonster




msg:1452938
 11:05 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

When you start getting ads on your site about how to strike it rich and retire early, I think the argument can be made from both sides: yes, this is a legitimate advertiser selling a service, but do you really want to refer people from your site to sites like these, even if you're making money? My site has nothing to do with getting rich, mlm or any other get-rich-quick scheme you can think of. When I have ads on my site like these, they go directly into the filter, no questions asked. There are a lot of instances I think filtering is necessary but I agree in the long run, you can't put too many in since we never know which ads one url may be posting on Google's system.

Scurramunga




msg:1452939
 11:15 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Jean,
He uses a proxy server. I wouldn't mind trying this also because it allows you to see what is on your site in a certain country in real time as if you were a visitor from that country.

Scurramunga




msg:1452940
 11:20 pm on Jan 11, 2006 (gmt 0)

Those 'get rich quick' and 'Russian brides' were the first to go on my site. However I am increasingly finding ads deliberately targeting my niche but offering crap instead.

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