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This 36 message thread spans 2 pages: 36 ( [1] 2 > >     
Adsense Tax for Non-US Citizens

 9:19 pm on Nov 25, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am a Non-US Citizen living in the US legally with a work visa. I don't own a server or have employees.
I do rent a shared host and have 1 computer.
I have websites that generate a couple bucks.
What kind of form should I fill?
I went throught the google tax wizard and couldn't find one that actually applies to my case.
Anybody in the same situation?
Any ideas?

I can't hire an accountant. What they wil charge will be more than what I actually make from those sites.


**I do undertand that webmaster world doens't give legal advice
** I undertand that message on this site don't constitute legal advice



 3:19 am on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

If you are living in the US then you have to pay US taxes.


 9:51 am on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Download the forms or at least look at the forms Google gives you, one of them will apply to you.


 2:15 pm on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

The Google tax information wizard lets you choose from two categories, and you fall in this one:

Are you a U.S. person (for example a U.S. corporation, a U.S. partnership, a U.S. citizen or a U.S. resident alien)?

You are a U.S. resident alien, by virtue of your work permit, H1 visa or whatever else visas you are holding. You file taxes in the US for your earnings here so you will need the W9 form that Google will give you. You will then include the W9 that Google will send you in your income tax filing, including the W2 that your employer will give you. If you want to claim your business expenses, you can look at Schedule C


 5:18 pm on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

I believe I 'm a Non-Resident Alien. There is something called test of substantial presence in the US to see if you are a resident or non resident. And basically this test counts how many days you spent in the US.
But, until 2 months ago I was on a student status. Just switched to a work H1 status. SO it seems that it started to count from when I got the new status. My presence as a student doesn't count towards being a resident or not.
So, according to this I would become a Resident some time next year. But not yet.


 5:24 pm on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

With the IRS, it's safest to be conservative. I would, in your shoes, not play any games or split any hairs.


 6:27 pm on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

IRS Form 8233
You have indicated that you are a foreign individual (for example a U.S. non-resident alien or a non-U.S. individual) with U.S. Activities that are involved with the revenue that has been or will be earned by you pursuant to the Google AdSense Online Program.


 7:22 pm on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

I am really confused. Form 8233 is for taxt treaties only.

I just sent this email to google. I hope they answer.

I am writing because Iíve been trying to figure out which of the Tax forms is the correct for me. I have gone through the wizard and read the publications on the IRS website, but I canít find a form that will apply for my specific case.

I am a non-resident alien for 2003. So, first I answered the wizard that I was a non-resident alien and that I have activities in the US. So it was said that I should fill form 8233. But this is wrong. Form 8233 is only if I wanted to claim a tax treaty, and there is no treaty between US and Brazil for my case.

Do you have U.S. Activities related to your participation in AdSense?
I donít know what to answer here. I do own a computer, but itís not a server and I donít own a server and I have no employees. I rent a shared host from a provider. So, should I answer that I donít have US activities?
I have a job in the US. But my activities with Adsense are all on a freelancer independent basis. I do that on my own from home. It has nothing to do with my job in the company I work for.

Anyway, lets say that the answer is that I HAVE US activities, then what form should I fill? It canít be 8233, because itís for tax treaties only. It canít be W9 because itís for US PERSON only. Not including non-resident alien.

Google is not listing the W4, but I also donít this one applies when you work on a freelancer basis.

So, I am very confused. I contacted the IRS and they donít know how to help with that situation.
I would highly appreciate if you could give me some instruction.

Hope hearing back from you soon.


 7:51 pm on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Don't make it too confusing to yourself. IRS only cares that you pay your taxes. As long as you are employed in the US -- and you said you are -- IRS does not make distinctions as to the type of visa you are holding.

IRS does not require employers to submit one form to H1B holders, or a different form to immigrant workers (holders of employment authorization card), another form to holders of permanent residency status, and another form to US citizens. Employers simply give one form to ALL legal US employees -- and that is the W2. Same principle with earnings from Google and other companies -- they will give you W9.

If you're a legal US worker, then you will be given by your employer W2. When you file your taxes, declare the income you receive from other companies like Google by attaching the W9. And if you want to declare profit or losses from business operations, include Schedule C.

Because if you don't report your W9 (e.g. earnings from Google and other companies), you'll have trouble with the IRS (not INS!). Afterall, Google will submit your tax information based on your SSN.


 8:37 pm on Nov 26, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the info. You seem to know something about the subject. But the form I filled with the company I work at was the W4 and not the W2.
For the google situation you're saying that I should fill the W-9?
But look what the W9 says:
Under penalties of perjury, I certify that: 1. The number shown on this form is my correct taxpayer identification number, and
2. I am not subject to backup withholding because: (a) I am exempt from backup withholding, or (b) I have not been notified by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) that I am subject to backup withholding as a result of a failure to report all interest or dividends, or (c) the IRS has notified me that I am no longer subject to backup withholding, and
3. I am a U.S. person (including a U.S. resident alien).

I don't match number 3 condition. US person including resident alien. I am a NON-resident alien. So, it doesn't apply for em. I can't certify that I am what I am not.


 2:19 am on Nov 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

You are a US resident alien. You have a work visa and you work in the US and earn income in the US on which you have to pay taxes.

Everyone fills out a W-4 when they have a job. At tax time, your employer will give you a W-2 which you will use to file your US taxes.


 2:27 am on Nov 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

You are dealing with the IRS not the INS. You are a US resident for tax purposes. You have a work visa and will get a W2.


 3:44 am on Nov 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

I called the IRS today and they said I am a Non-resident as now.
I am not making this up.


 12:22 pm on Nov 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

Where you say you know have an H1 visa, you are officially a resident alien for 2003 which means you will have to pay taxes.

Personally, I wouldn't take chances. I'd file a tax return to be on the safe side. Between the penalties and the possibility of being deported, file the taxes. Chances are you'll get most all the money back that you paid in on your job.


 4:55 pm on Nov 27, 2003 (gmt 0)

Actually depending on the treaties signed between two countries, he may not have to Pay US taxes. I know when I was working in Australia (on a two year work visa) I would have to get out of Australia after being in country for 182 days during their tax year (July 1 to June 30) or I would have had to pay taxes there. I actually got to work there for seven months because I started In June so that time was in the first tax year and they also did not count time you were out of country (I few back back home for a week every six weeks).


 9:13 pm on Nov 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

This is completely Crazy!
Google won't return my emails.
Even IRS don't know what to do.
Google gives me option of filling W9 or 8233.
IRS tells me W9 is wrong because I am a non resident alien.
Also 8233 is wrong because I am not claiming a tax treaty.
They tell me to fill a 1040ESNR form, that is not on the list that google provided.
I don't know what to do.
If I wait a response from google or what. I guess if I don't send my info they will just hold my payments until I do so.

Isn't there anybody in this forum that is also an non-resident alien?



 9:45 pm on Nov 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

Isn't there anybody in this forum that is also an non-resident alien?

I used to be one, I also had a work permit. This meant that I would get my W2 at the end of the year and file my 1040 just like anyone else. Also you are inferring that the IRS told you that filing a W9 is wrong. However, I suspect that all that they told you was that you are not considered a resident alien.

Take this advice for what is worth {exactly how much you are paying for it}, the following are my thoughts.

1- You will never get in trouble for filing taxes, you will only get in trouble for not filing.

2- Depending on the amount of earnings, you might not even have to pay income tax on it.

3- That "1040ESNR" form sounds like a variant of the 1040 tax return. Right now you are not filing the return, that comes later.

4- Better safe than sorry.


 10:03 pm on Nov 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

Yes, I know.
What I am worried about the W9 is that on the bottom is says "I certify that I am a US person (including resident)"
I just don't want to certify something that is untrue.
I also guess that I could go with the 8233 and leave the info about tax treaty blank.


 1:24 am on Nov 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Even if you are a non-resident alien, you still have to fill out a US tax return - form 1040NR - [irs.gov...]

For Google, you should fill out the W9 form. Your other option is to stop using AdSense until you go back to your native country.


 2:54 am on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Based upon the full instructions that are given on the W-9 form on the irs.gov website, the W8 form is the proper selection:

"If you are a nonresident alien or a foreign entity not subject to backup withholding, give the requester the appropriate completed Form W-8."

In this case it would seem to be W-8 ECI.



 3:15 am on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

I signed the w9.
I will see what happens.
Thanks everybody.


 3:42 am on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Skuba , if i understand you correctly you say you are in H1-B Visa , right? .

In a H1-B Visa you can work only for the company who sponsored the visa - you cannot work for any others and also you cannot run a business in USA. So technically you cannot receive money for Google Adsense (which is a 1099 payment)

Consult with a attorney . The INS (USCIS) may not find this but you will be ruining your greencard processing in the future ...


 8:59 am on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Don't have to pay Bush tax as everything is in the UK. However, google's awful communcations means I have no idea if they have recieved the form where I declare this or if they even acknowledged it. Great.


 5:12 pm on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

I will verify. But I believe that to particpate in programs like google adsense or amazon associates you can actually be from any citizenship and be anywhere in the world.
So, if it's a problem that I live in the US, I will just change my addres to my home country.

I guess that with the H1-b visa I can work for only ONE employer. I am not employed by google or amazon.


 6:35 pm on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> if it's a problem that I live in the US, I will just change my addres to my home country

This you can do , but you cannot give US address and so you cannot deposit it in your bank account in US .

In a H1-B you can work only for the sponsoring company and you cannot work outside (that includes 1099 payment like Google Adsense)

>> But I believe that to particpate in programs like google adsense or amazon associates you can actually be from any citizenship and be anywhere in the world

Its a not the problem for google/amazon but what i am trying to say is you are in US with a work visa and you ONLY has to do it and cannot do any ouside work including smalltime side jobs.

INS normally maynot find it , but when you apply greencard you have to produce previous years tax returns which will show that you got paid in 1099 which is illegal


 7:46 pm on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Gopi, thanks for all the info.
What would you suggest?
I am about to get my first check from google and adsense.
It's not a load of money. Prob $10 from Google and $100 from Amazon.
I even signed the W9 with google and gave my SSN to amazon.
Now I am concerned!

What can I do now?

Is there way I can private message you?



 11:37 pm on Dec 5, 2003 (gmt 0)

Google does not send checks for $10. You have to make $100 to get paid by them.


 12:37 am on Dec 6, 2003 (gmt 0)

They do. At the end of the year.
"Additionally, we will pay out all accounts at the end of each year, regardless of account balance."


 4:20 pm on Dec 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> Prob $10 from Google and $100 from Amazon

Oh , i think then its not that much of a problem ...When your 1099 income becomes substantial like more than your W2 pay then it will look odd in your tax return which attracts INS scrutiny!.

You may not even get a 1099 if your total yearly income from a single merchant is less than $400 (so you may not have to even report it to IRS :) )

In the future if you think you are going to make substantial money (more than 10k) use your home-country address


 5:34 pm on Dec 8, 2003 (gmt 0)

Companies are only required to send a 1099 if they pay you more than $600 in a calendar year.

This 36 message thread spans 2 pages: 36 ( [1] 2 > >
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