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Google AdSense Forum

This 108 message thread spans 4 pages: 108 ( [1] 2 3 4 > >     
Combating Made for AdSense pages
Whos is making the money in this battle?
Hobbs




msg:1353968
 8:46 am on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Made for AdSense pages (MFA) are very easy to identify with a simple algorithm:
1- Mostly one or less than 5 pages per domain
2- Content % is very low
3- Usually mimic a search results page
4- One account must have many many many of those domains
5- Very common to find several ad units in the same page
6- Will not be updated often
7- Must be associated with an Adwords account in addition to the AdSense account, one is always and only linking to another
8- They mostly have close to zero PR as they run too many domains and getting good incoming links is almost impossible.
And I am sure you can add a few characteristics yourself here...

These people are hurting honest publishers in:
- Taking away visitors for pennies
- Paying pennies where you could make more
- Reducing our CTR and income
- Affecting visitors' trust in your sites
- Wasting everyone's time (visitors and publishers)

You can argue that Google provided the means to block those, but its like G opening the window and arming you with a tiny fly swatter, given the sheer number of pages you can have on your site and multiply that with the number of countries available for Geo Targeting, the task is almost impossible.

You can argue that they do generate some income, but 3 to 10 cents a click is about the maximum they can give, and if you think your content and time is not worth more than that, think again.

These people will target your site, and use every trick in the TOS to lower their pay, while honest retailers whose ads are 100 times more relevant to your content are being shouldered out!

The point for this long post is to ask:
- Why in the world is Google not finding them fast
- Why is Google allowing them in the first place
Their pattern is very easy to identify, the media partners bot does scan their pages right?
- What happens when you click the "Ads by Goooogle" link and report them?
- How come they are making money in the first place, if they are "exploiting a market inefficiency" as some here put it, why isn't big G analyzing those inefficiencies and sending more money our way and theirs?
- What is stopping Google from giving us an opt out option for ads that lead into pages containing AdSense?
- Does Google really stand to make more money if they seriously combat MFA?

Want to hear your views on this.

 

frox




msg:1353969
 9:10 am on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

My views

- Why in the world is Google not finding them fast
- Why is Google allowing them in the first place
Their pattern is very easy to identify, the media partners bot does scan their pages right?

Because it's money for Google. We might not like them, Google makes money out of that.

- What happens when you click the "Ads by Goooogle" link and report them?
You hear a little "click". Absolutely nothing else

- How come they are making money in the first place, if they are "exploiting a market inefficiency" as some here put it, why isn't big G analyzing those inefficiencies and sending more money our way and theirs?
It takes manual optimization of keywords.
You could do that if you had time, and knowledge.
Perhaps, you prefer to spend your time putting up good contents. That's G's reward for this.

- What is stopping Google from giving us an opt out option for ads that lead into pages containing AdSense?
Opting out? why should they give YOU more control?

- Does Google really stand to make more money if they seriously combat MFA?
No, MFAs are smart enough to lucrate on different keywords.

Let's say I have a MFA mesothelioma site.

I am getting nice, high-paying ads but no taffic.
Can I put adwords for "mesothelioma" and make money of that? certainly not, I am going to pay my clicks too much.
But if I put adwords on keywords like "shortness of breath", pay 2-3 cents a click and get a CTR of 10% then I am making money.

Google profits of this too so - for as much we might hate this - this is going to go on..

Want to hear your views on this.

Tropical Island




msg:1353970
 10:47 am on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Must be associated with an Adwords account in addition to the AdSense account, one is always and only linking to another

Many on our sites are Overture / Yahoo listings.

jetteroheller




msg:1353971
 11:21 am on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

3- Usually mimic a search results page

My table of content pages all look similar to search result pages. How else should a table of content page look like?

6- Will not be updated often

Some domains like my main domain from 1997
and the conversion of my book to a web site had been not updated for years.

You see, 2 of Your 8 points are found on my sites also. Combating MFA only based on computer algortihm is very difficult.

I would compare it with bombing only military targets in a city only based on satellite pictures. With some unluck, You hit right the chinese embassy. (This happened already to the US in Beograd some years ago)

Hobbs




msg:1353972
 11:22 am on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Tropical Island:
> Many on our sites are Overture / Yahoo listings

I was going to ask this question in another thread, but since you brought it up:

- Did any publisher here experience income boost by blocking sites that are full of affiliate links for overture, ebay, travelovity, tripadvisor..?

frox:
>Let's say I have a MFA mesothelioma site.
>I am getting nice, high-paying ads but no taffic

If they are so good in building content & optimizing isn't the system broke if the next logical thing for them is to game it rather than go the extra mile of making their sites useful with good incoming links and earn rather than buy traffic?
What do they know that I don't that gets them those "high-paying ads"? Skill knowledge and time? I doubt it, I build authority sites, optimized and useful,I do not have to buy any traffic.

I hear a lot in this forum people saying it is impossible to know how much individual advertisers are paying, Google tells you not to block many as some could be your best payers, buy obviously those MFA owners know better, they know exactly how much is paid and where.

Hobbs




msg:1353973
 11:50 am on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

jetteroheller,
Since we are talking algorithm, you are right, my own site would trip a couple of those alarms too, but a weighted score system for each of the above 8 points should not raise an alarm, add to them the following characteristics for MFA:

9- Blocked by too many authority sites
10- Long URL or deep landing pages
11- Many .ws domains ;)
12- Many limited to specific industries:
Insurance, Travel, Hotels, Drugs, Recruiting, Calling Cards, Loans, Mortgage...

Put a weight on each of those points and any site reaching a threshold warrants a manual investigation, it that too much?

awall19




msg:1353974
 12:09 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just MHO, but I don't think Google gives a crap about low quality AdSense sites because they hurt Yahoo! and MSN far more than Google.

They will probably continue to not care unless the bad press associated with the issue starts to cost them more negative plublicity than it is worth.

Also it would not hard to mix RSS feeds, shopping offers, and do other stuff like that to create self generating dynamic always changing type for AdSense sites.

I think there are algorithms to detect non content for profit sites, but I also think Google's techniques are probably better than the competitions.

I bet there are many sites that are banned in Google organic that still have AdSense on them. Banned sites can use AdWords.

DavidDeprice




msg:1353975
 12:18 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Guys, this is so silly. It's like polititians saying "let's fight crime". "Let's wage war on drugs."
Does government fight drugs? Yes. Does it arrest people every day for dealing dope? Yes, the prisons are full of drug dealers. Can you still buy drugs more or less freely in most cities? Yes, absolutely.
Your "Google vs. MFAs" is a silly politics "all talk no result" discussion. First of all, there are plenty of publishers who make a lot of money with AdSense. There are businesses that has sprung as the result of this program. They don't fight MFAs, instead they work on increasing their profits, MFAs or not. Sure, you can devote your time to fighting MFAs or accussing Google of this and that, but it's not going to increase your profits.
You see, I am very suprised by this position.
"I create content. Now I am entitled to free search engine traffic from Google and if some crappy site is higher than mine, then I'll complain about google conspiracy and how dumb the latest algo upgrade has been. Not only google is responsible for driving people to my site, it's responsible for montetizing traffic. And if I'm getting only one or two cents a click, it's certainly google fault. How dare they! I'm entitled to setting a minimum for my site and since Google does not let me do that - they are evil."
Why it's google's responsibility to make you rich? What's yours responsibility? The entire MFA discussion is absolutely groundless. It's like saying "well, I have a nice restaurant, but the reason I don't get any visitors is because of McDonnalds, Taco Bells and Burger Kings. If these wouldn't serve their crappy food, I'd be rich." Sorry, does not work this way - there are plenty of restaurants who make money even though there are huhdreds of thousands of fast food joints and there are plenty of publishers who make a living online despite MFA ads. Isn't it very strange that when you read case studies, there is not a single one that says "then I reported 1000 MFA sites to Google, and my profits went way up 300%".

Hobbs




msg:1353976
 12:37 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

David,
It is much simpler than all that:
Is MFA legal by Google's own TOS? No
Can Google easily stop them? Yes
Then why is Google allowing thme to florish?

DavidDeprice




msg:1353977
 12:53 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hobbs

Are drugs illegal in the United States?
Yes.
Does government arrest people for selling drugs?
Yes.
Why does not government entirely stop drugs?
?

Do you see the point? Google has TOS and they enforce it, may be not as strictly as some would want. Some people would say they don't enforce TOS at all, but we know they do because people complain about sites that have word "gun" being banned even though they aren't about guns.

How people selling drugs in the United States or other country prevent me from making money and leaving healthy? I don't do drugs and I am fine.

Do you seriously think that MFAs can be stopped? And if they can't be stopped or, more appropriately it's not very likely that all MFAs will be shut down, why spend your time on this issue? MFAs don't really prevent you from making more money. I am yet to hear from a successful AdSense publisher of high caliber (like Joel Comm or Darren Rowse) that the fact that MFAs are out there somehow prevent them from making money with AdSense. I simply don't see the point about asking the question "Why does not Google stop MFAs?" It's like asking "Why does US Government allow illegal immigrants come from Mexico?" If it happens, it happens.

dzcap




msg:1353978
 12:54 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Does this David work for Google? Anyone know?

Clark




msg:1353979
 12:56 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

David,

Because Google profits from the MFAs. As a result, they not only allow them to flourish. They are creating their reason for exsitence. These sites are spam. They are polluting the Internet.

Oh the irony. Google became popular because they beat AltaVista at detecting spammy pages and finding relevant pages. Only to turn around and find a way to profit from and by default create the worst spam problem in the history of communication.

DavidDeprice




msg:1353980
 1:15 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

I don't work for Google, I work for myself. But this idea (of working for Google) suddenly resulted in a very interesting metaphor thought.
You guys, who complain about smartpricing or MFAs remind me of Walmart employees getting paid minimum wage and saying that Walmart is evil, because the reason Walmart pays you so little is that Walmart is gready and trying to prove that one glance at their quoterly profit report proves once and for all that Walmart can and should raise your pay. And then you starts saying what your fair pay should be.

What I am trying to suggest is to look inside and forget about "them". Think "me". What can I do?

DZCap, I have very strange feeling what you misunderstand some concepts. I truely believe that diversification is the only way to go. Diversification means that you'd invest some money in stocks, some in bonds, some in junk bonds, some in options, some in REITs, some in tax sheltered annuities, etc.
If you invest in 100 different junk bonds or 100 different meat packer companies, it does not mean you are diversified. If you start several sites a week and still get 1 cent a click, it means that you misunderstand what diversification is. If you believe that Google is punishing you, look for income sources beyond Google. Trying to find a person responsible for your misfortune (some evil Google employee who smartpriced you), won't do any good.

Tropical Island




msg:1353981
 1:16 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

- Did any publisher here experience income boost by blocking sites that are full of affiliate links for overture, ebay, travelovity, tripadvisor..?

Every time our EPC goes down I check to see which pages (through channels) are giving the lowest EPC and do checks with the Preview tool. I immediately block any MFA or MFO/Y sites. Within hours the EPC starts to rise.

I blocked a bunch last week and this weekend we have had great numbers.

We do not block Tripadvisor as they are very active in our market and will bid quite high. We definately block eBay affiliates.

dzcap




msg:1353982
 1:42 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

blah blah blah, more "advice" from david..i just possibly lost $5 reading your post..

Chrisweg




msg:1353983
 1:58 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

The analogies are pathetic on this discussion.

Relatively speaking, the US spends a ton of money fighting crime while Google does nothing against MFA's. In fact, Google's system helps MFA's flourish.

Taco Bell, although not your "fine restaurant", provides an amazing service for the price.

I'd like to think most agree that in the end, it is in Google's best interest to minimize the effect that MFA's have in Adsense and the SERPS.

Bottom Line
MFA's steal. MFA's waste time. MFA's have no value.

Chrisweg




msg:1353984
 2:08 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

BTW, Walmart employee salaries are actually in line with retailer salaries. Anyone who makes a low salary is obviously more likely to complain, no matter where they work.
Those you should feel sorry for are displaced workers with higher levels of skill that are underutilized and have little choice but to take a job at Walmart to pay their bills.

europeforvisitors




msg:1353985
 2:47 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

I'm all for Google's pursuing MFA sites more aggressively, but not because such sites take profits from other publishers. The more compelling reasons for purging such sites are:

1) They make AdSense less sttractive to advertisers, users, and publishers;

2) Like their predecessors (boilerplate affiliate sites), they threaten the quality of Google's search results.

But purging the search index and the AdSense network of MFA sites isn't our job--it's Google's.

JohnDoealias




msg:1353986
 3:06 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Guys...

Haven't you ever seen any quality MFAs? I have many.

What can I say? The world is gray.

Cheers

Tropical Island




msg:1353987
 3:32 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Haven't you ever seen any quality MFAs? I have many.

I haven't- none!

dzcap




msg:1353988
 3:41 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

To be honest, I've recently been thinking about developing some quality MFAs. I know some people making over $10K a month doing this and they're just high schoolers. LOL!

farmboy




msg:1353989
 4:18 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

For those of you who have been on this forum for a while, has anyone here ever reported having an account closed for having a MFA page of some type? I've read a lot of "my account was closed because of my clicking on ads" posts, but what about being closed because of too little or no content on a page?

farmboy

DavidDeprice




msg:1353990
 4:38 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Yes, MFA accounts do get shut down after a while, you'll get caught. A notable exception is expired domains. You can run ads on those and have no content and Google won't shut you down for some reason.

dzcap




msg:1353991
 4:40 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

I think you can just slap on some Amazon affiliate so it won't be considered MFA.

Tropical Island




msg:1353992
 4:41 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

I reported a large site on Oct. 7 that has no content - just AdSense. On checking it is still exactly the same 5 weeks later

We have sent a follow-up and have identified ourselves as both advertisers and publishers.

We'll see what happens.

farmboy




msg:1353993
 4:53 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Yes, MFA accounts do get shut down after a while..

Did the people who came here and reported their accounts were closed because of MFA provide any details - what was on their page, did AdSense specify the reason the account was closed, etc?

farmboy

farmboy




msg:1353994
 5:01 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

I reported a large site on Oct. 7 that has no content - just AdSense. On checking it is still exactly the same 5 weeks later...

I've found (and reported) several of those by following ads that have appeared on my sites. One really bad site I first reported about 8 months ago and reported again several times since. I'm usually not a self-appointed police officer but I thought reporting these type things were the right thing to do for the integrity of the system.

After noticing that nothing happened to the site and reading numerous reports of other people making similar reports with no response, I essentially became discouraged and no longer report such sites. What's the point?

farmboy

dzcap




msg:1353995
 5:08 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

You should all stop reporting because that's where I am heading next month =D

Hobbs




msg:1353996
 5:50 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

dzcap said:
>that's where I am heading next month

I see you on my content, I will knock that dzcap off your dzhead :)

Thanks Tropical Island for the tip on other affiliate links.

Clark




msg:1353997
 6:52 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

David on what basis are you saying that? I don't believe it at all. Someone pointed out that there is a forum site from what was it, two years ago that said click the ads click the ads to the whole community. Still has functioning adsense on it. He pointed a link to a Google SERP on "click my adsense ads" or something similar. More than one result. And WW is high profile. They did nothing. Was still there last time I checked.

I don't think you work for Google. But I do think you're making excuses for them assuming they are taking care of things they aren't.

EFV, I finally agree with you on something about this topic :)

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