homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.161.147.106
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member

Visit PubCon.com
Home / Forums Index / Code, Content, and Presentation / CSS
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: not2easy

CSS Forum

    
Convince my Boss!
mumford




msg:1191242
 11:28 am on Aug 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi

I want to convince my boss that developing our sites using css and standards is the way to go, using tables it bad etc.

I need him to understand why using tables is bad, also that it is a benefit for search engines and useability.

Does anyone have some really good documents on this!

Also there is a site that I have to make a bit more accessible, there idea of this is to provide different text sizes for the user!.

The site is buily entirley in tables with a linked style sheet.

For the site to be truly accessible does it have to be built using DIV's?

Thanks

 

topr8




msg:1191243
 12:14 pm on Aug 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

personally i use a combination of tables and css

i think one of the big problems of table based layouts is when you have multiple nested tables.

i often use a table of two for the layout and use divs within the table cells and use css for fonts, text size, even some positioning etc, works for me.

collymellon




msg:1191244
 1:18 pm on Aug 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi,

For the site to be truly accessible does it have to be built using DIV's?

No - as long as the table is built accessible - eg specify size with % not px, label the table - summary="layouttable" etc.

there idea of this is to provide different text sizes for the user!.

This is done through sytlesheets; once you have your set text sizes in each stylesheet you need a bit a javascript to switch through each sheet on click - PM me for the script.

The site is buily entirley in tables with a linked style sheet

If you are planning on a full CSS 'conversion' don't expect it to look identical straight off; CSS takes time to ensure cross-browser efficiency and would require abit of research before you start ripping the old site to bits..

collymellon

ronin




msg:1191245
 2:35 pm on Aug 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

I want to convince my boss that developing our sites using css and standards is the way to go

Yes, it is.

1) Smaller, faster loading pages.
2) Quicker and easier to maintain.
4) All standards compliant User Agents can read and understand your pages.
5) You can put the content in your code in whichever order you want, which has SEO advantages.
6) Multiple stylesheets allow you to present the same pages in different ways (as opposed to writing new pages).

All in all, a huge amount of time and money saved.
A very good business decision.

The Semantic Argument:

Some people will always recommend using tables to lay out pages - possibly because they weren't around when this technique was first used as a hack and thus, to their mind, it isn't a hack - but using tables, makes your html document a two-dimensional graphics tablet. And it isn't. It's a document containing marked-up elements.

You wouldn't position elements around the page using unordered lists, would you? No. So why use tables?

dcrombie




msg:1191246
 3:10 pm on Aug 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

[webmasterworld.com...]

Pay special attention to msg #:21 ;)

Chndru




msg:1191247
 3:19 pm on Aug 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

msg #:21

Wow.

g1smd




msg:1191248
 8:31 pm on Aug 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

This is the point at which I usually just mention:

csszengarden

topr8




msg:1191249
 1:47 pm on Aug 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>Some people will always recommend using tables to lay out pages - possibly because they weren't around when this technique was first used as a hack and thus, to their mind, it isn't a hack - but using tables, makes your html document a two-dimensional graphics tablet.

comments like this put me out and imo are very unhelpful, nearly all css layouts that use complex positioning, use css hacks to do what they need.

tables and css mix very well indeed.

like it or not using tables is currently the de facto standard for the layout out pages, even if that isn't what tables were meant for.

even the much praised WebmasterWorld uses tables for layout, infact almost every major high traffic site i can think of uses tables for layout - even google

i know i'll be unpopular here for going against the "css is just so cool and the best thing in the world" posters

regarding the original posters points.

I want to convince my boss that developing our sites using css and standards is the way to go, using tables it bad etc.

sounds like you've already decided that tables are bad and css is good, despite the fact that (see below) you don't have the means to explain why :)

I need him to understand why using tables is bad, also that it is a benefit for search engines and useability.
Does anyone have some really good documents on this!

i do think that if you are a css guru and really know what you are doing then the benefits are certainly there to be had.

but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, here are a couple of examples that imo have hindered a website's seo due to bad use of css - more common that you'd think, and there are many, many other commonly used css methods that hinder seo...

by using some css positional layouts and the way the floats work the actual "meat" of the page is actually LOWER down the html than it would have been with tables.

using id's to style text: like making the font bold or larger - instead of using <strong><b> or <hx> tags (which can of cause be styled themselves)

i still absolutely think that a combination of tables and css is FOR MOST people the best route to go.

peteej




msg:1191250
 4:33 pm on Aug 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

Being the devil's advocate here...

4) All standards compliant User Agents can read and understand your pages.

How would you respond to people regarding the statement above that would say, "What about the people with older browsers that aren't compliant? Are we just going to forget about them?" (I hear this all the time.)

I'm in the process of converting a lot of my company's sites to CSS and our CTO is insanely serious when it comes to accessibility. I'm always looking for more reinforcement to my arguments.

bedlam




msg:1191251
 7:28 pm on Aug 5, 2005 (gmt 0)

4) All standards compliant User Agents can read and understand your pages.

How would you respond to people regarding the statement above that would say, "What about the people with older browsers that aren't compliant? Are we just going to forget about them?" (I hear this all the time.)

There are two factors to consider here:

  1. Are people using these older browsers actually visiting the site?
  2. If so, can they actually use the content of the site?

The answer to (1) is often 'no, not in any remotely significant numbers', and if this is the case, then simply proceed with the site redesign. But even when the answer is 'Yes', CSS can still be used to make content available to those users by simply delivering a reduced set of styles or none at all.

But in order to pull this off successfully, it's important to structure your documents...as documents. A well structured document accompanied by no styles whatsoever will be usable in almost any user agent - new browsers, old browsers, Lynx, screenreaders, pdas etc. Accompanied by media-appropriate stylesheets it can be usable, aesthetically pleasing, and more accessible in a similarly wide range of devices. This is not necessarily true with layout tables, and in cases where it is true the layout is usually simple enough that it could easily be duplicated without actually using the table.*

Without wanting to start a flame war, there seems to be one point that's usually missed by those who advocate the use of layout tables: markup is not layout, and getting to really understand this one simple point allows for much more flexibility in creating what the w3c calls 'interoperable' documents.

-B

*There are a lot of CSS layouts out there these days, and there are enough of them that are sufficiently well-developed that there's really very little difficulty in designing for almost any reasonably modern browser...

Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Code, Content, and Presentation / CSS
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved