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What determines the 'quality' of a keyword?
Is the answer the solution to these ridiculously high minumum bids?
humblebeginnings




msg:1121894
 10:42 am on Aug 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi folks,

Had a conversation with AWA about what determines the 'quality' of a keyword. This is one of the main issues here because too little quality = inactive keywords = no advertising! Now most of us have loads of inactive keywords with ridiculously high minimum bids since the thursday update. Big G tells us to improve the 'quality' of our keywords in order to lower these high minimum bids. As we all know this can be achieved by optimizing (matching the ad text with the keywords).
Since in my account optimizing has no effect whatsoever on the minimum bids (a given keyword always has the same price regardless of the optimizing), AWA stated something that confused me. AWA, if I explain your words wrongly I apoligize. To prevent such thing I will quote you:

"it could be the keyword itself is not destined to have a high quality score in and of itself. Put another way, not every keyword is a quality keyword."

Huh? I might completely miss the point here because I am a beginner. But up to now I thought quality of keywords was defined by the way they matched ad text. Now it appears a keyword "in and of itself" can have a high or low quality as well?

AWA, how can we know what keyword has quality
"in and at itself"? What determines the quality "in and at itself" of our keywords. How can we find out?
Since Google tells us to improve the quality of our keywords, it would be fair to explain to us how to do so,
don't you agree?

Confused, dazzled, bewildered, amazed.
And the lady is p*ssed off since I promised to make her a sandwich instead 'Googling around'.

 

arrowman




msg:1121895
 5:16 pm on Aug 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

in my account optimizing has no effect whatsoever on the minimum bids

In my account sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't.

The thing that sometimes worked was:
1. remove the keyword
2. change some ads to better match the keyword
3. add the keyword again

When I just changed my ads without fiddling with the keywords, most of the time nothing would happen, although once in a while something did.

I find the instruction "improve the quality" very unclear, because it doesn't tell you where and how.

Also, it never stops telling you that, even when you've done it. At some point it really should say:

"Congratulations, you've choosen the best keywords and most creative ad text possible. However we'll only give it a try when you're willing to pay a maximum of at least our minimum of $... for this keyword"

eatchley




msg:1121896
 5:51 pm on Aug 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

I have a question if someone would be so gracious to answer.

Ad:

25% Off All Red Widgets
These Are Custom Made Red Widgets,
Free Shipping On All Red Widgets!
RedWidgets.com

Is the above ad considered Repetition according to the editorial guidelines or is it considered to be an extremely relevant targeted ad?

I normally don't mention the keyword more then once but from what I am hearing it sounds like it might be a good idea if it passes editorial guidelines.

If the keyword Red Widgets is a product, how would you go about increasing the quality score of a product?

Say this product was custom made to the highest quality standards available and it is brand new.

Am I missing something?

Thanks to any of those who wish to reply.

Fortunately I have not been hurt by the new system, at least for now. Actually my CPC has gone down 15%, my CTR has gone up 1.5% and from what little data I have my conversions are up 1%. My conversions fluctuate at least this much every month so that could be coincidental.

My ads are well targeted to my keywords. I have many adgroups to target each relative set of keywords. These ads have been running for 9 months. I only had a couple of inactive words for all my established campaigns.

I am working with a new campaign now and trying to determine how difficult it will be to get it established. I have noticed the higher CPC inactive keywords everyone is talking about and chose to activate only the ones that I could see potential profit in while leaving the others inactive.

I have seen the inactive bid go up and down during the last week for each inactive keyword that I left alone. If it got down to what I was willing to pay for it I activated it. If the minimum bid went back up the next day I left it inactive.

So far I am getting impressions on the inactive keywords as well, not sure if they are slowed or not. If they are slowed it must be an extremely high searched term because I am getting quite a few impressions for those keywords. Not a great CTR though. I was testing something eWhisper mentioned about Demographic targeting. Some of these keywords I have tried in the past but was unable to generate a high enough CTR to keep them but they are a part of my overall demographics.

gopi




msg:1121897
 5:57 pm on Aug 23, 2005 (gmt 0)

>> it could be the keyword itself is not destined to have a high quality score in and of itself. Put another way, not every keyword is a quality keyword

Some keywords inherently have a very low CTR irrespective of ad text and it seems now google from some reason dont want ads for those type of keywords . They now do this by insanely high minimum bids.

AdWordsAdvisor




msg:1121898
 12:41 am on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

"it could be the keyword itself is not destined to have a high quality score in and of itself. Put another way, not every keyword is a quality keyword."

Huh? I might completely miss the point here because I am a beginner. But up to now I thought quality of keywords was defined by the way they matched ad text. Now it appears a keyword "in and of itself" can have a high or low quality as well?

Great question, humblebeginnings, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

Let me see if I can explain by using a real life example from the past. (BTW, I have used this example in this Forum before, in another context, so some of you may have seen this once or twice before.)

A long time ago, I spoke with an advertiser who was selling off-road truck tires. He decided to take a shotgun approach with his keywords and ended up with a very long list of keywords that included anything that had even the most remote connection with tires.

My personal favorite among his hundreds of keywords was 'air'. He felt this was a great and extremely relevant keyword, since all his tires have air in them.

This was true enough, of course. His tires undeniably had air in them - but this fact does not make 'air' a great keyword.

Back then, my point to him was that he would do much better with keywords like 'off road truck tires', rather than keywords like 'air'.

I bring this up now with a different point to make, which is that a keyword like 'air', in and of itself, is not destined to earn a high Quality Score - even with a seemingly targeted ad such as this one:

My Tires hold Air
Truck tires you can put air in!
Use air, but not too much air.
www.sillytireexample.com

I hope this silly example will illustrate what I meant earlier. Yes, the Quality Score of a keyword is entirely dependent on how it is used in the account. And, no, keywords do not have a Quality Score in their own right. However, it is also true that some keywords are not destined to ever have a great Quality Score, even with a "highly targeted" ad simply because they are not good keywords, within the context of what the advertisers is selling.

Also, I hope the ad above illustrates the principle that an ad that uses the keyword a lot of times is not necessarily a good ad. ;)

I hope that helps clarify things, humblebeginnings, and I sincerely apologize for adding to your confusion while intending to help!

AWA

NickV




msg:1121899
 1:07 am on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

AWA,

Thanks for your patient and detailed explanations. If I get your "Air" example correctly, Google now has some highly sophisticated Artificial Intelligence system that is capable of understanding that "Air" is not a good keyword for the ad in your example.

It must somehow figure out that the primary domain of the ad is "truck tires" and that has nothing to do with air. And it does it all from 3 lines of creative text. That can be anything. And yet the system will somehow magically know what the ad is and is not about.

I have a Ph.D. Degree in Computer Science and I find it extremely hard to beleive that this can really be done.

eyeinthesky




msg:1121900
 1:20 am on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

AWA, are you saying that generic keywords won't have a high quality?

How can one know that a keyword is like the "air" example you quoted?

Also, since most one-word keyword tend to be generic, what can we expect out of this?

And maybe this is out of context, but why are some keywords that are "active", meaning they have high enough quaility, not show up? I've lots of these "active" keywords which look more like dinosuars (extinct)...

debvh




msg:1121901
 1:28 am on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

After reading that explanation I can only wonder what a certain online auction house is paying for:

<ad removed>

[edited by: eWhisper at 12:45 am (utc) on Aug. 25, 2005]
[edit reason] Please read AdWords Charter. No copying ads. [/edit]

SlimKim




msg:1121902
 3:14 am on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

at this point, it appears that words that have a very high search frequency are also considered more valuable than they were before, even in cases where no ads are running under that keyword

brizad




msg:1121903
 3:23 am on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

After reading that explanation I can only wonder what a certain online auction house is paying for:

Air
Great deals on Air -
shop on XXXX and Save!
XXXX.com

HOW TRUE!

Direct from a google search right now. Coming in at #7

<ad removed>

What does the page go to?
- CALIFORNIA IMPRESSIONIST Plein Air Painting, No Reserve
- Learn How to Airbrush License Plates DVD Airbrushing
- RAISED AIR BED TWIN MIDRISE INFLATABLE AIRBED MATTRESS
- 2006 Deluxe Air Hammock Sky Chair....Blue....L@@K
- TENT FAN AIR CONDITIONING WITH LIGHT,NEW ITEM THIS YEAR
- 1961 Barbie Fashion 984 AMERICAN AIRLINES STEWARDESS A+

<All about as relevant as truck tires and air wouldn't you say?>

Just like in real life, if you have a lot of money then the rules don't apply to you.

AWA don't you see how ludicrous this all is?

[edited by: eWhisper at 11:55 am (utc) on Aug. 24, 2005]
[edit reason] Please Read AdWords Charter. Don't Copy Ads. [/edit]

arikgub




msg:1121904
 12:46 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

This one is #1 in Google US

<ad removed>

Relevancy. Yeh, right......

[edited by: eWhisper at 1:07 pm (utc) on Aug. 24, 2005]
[edit reason] Please Read AdWords Charter. Don't Copy Ads. [/edit]

PatrickDeese




msg:1121905
 1:03 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

> Yeh, right

Considering that Air is the name of a French electronica group, I would say that was fine.

ronmcd




msg:1121906
 1:44 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

AWA, you said:

"Yes, the Quality Score of a keyword is entirely dependent on how it is used in the account."

Excellent.

"However, it is also true that some keywords are not destined to ever have a great Quality Score, even with a "highly targeted" ad simply because they are not good keywords, within the context of what the advertisers is selling."?

Surely only an individual advertiser can know this, for them? I still dont really get what youre saying: will "air" in this context be expensive to activate? If so why, assuming their ad is optimized for that word? Is it, as someone mentioned previously, going to fall foul of some new part of the algo which decides the word air cant be used to sell tyres? I really really hope not. One of the things I have found after 2 years advertising on adwords is how difficult it is to know which (sometimes obscure) phrases will actually bring sales. How can google predict these words for every industry?

There just seems to be a contradiction here between "Quality Score of a keyword is entirely dependent on how it is used in the account" and what appears to be google deciding a word wont convert, so deciding it will always be low quality.

I'm not trying to be difficult AWA, I'm just confused.

Iain.

luckychucky




msg:1121907
 2:20 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

Here's more:

<ads removed>

...and I really don't believe relevance is the only factor to determining a keyword's "Quality". Spot-on relevant keywords (ie: with pretty exact topical relevance) which always got decent impressions and high CTRs, have now leaped to $1.00 minimums. Something else is in the mix here. Party line rhetoric doesn't quite match reality in the trenches, from what I see, from where I sit.

[edited by: luckychucky at 2:28 pm (utc) on Aug. 24, 2005]

[edited by: eWhisper at 4:01 pm (utc) on Aug. 24, 2005]
[edit reason] Don't copy ads. Please read AdWords Forum Charter. [/edit]

Murdoch




msg:1121908
 2:21 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

This is just a theory of mine, but I would think that a keyword's quality score has something to do with:

1. The number of words (1 and 2 word phrases probably a LOT harder to qualify as quality than 3 or 4 words phrases)

2. The ad copy in relation to the keyword phrase

...and the most theoretical part...

3. The ad copy and/or landing page in relation to similar pages indexed by Google using this keyword / keyphrase

Now from what I've always heard, Google does not take the landing page or outside pages into consideration when determining Adwords relevancy but maybe that is changing? Just a thought...

econman




msg:1121909
 5:20 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

Google has a huge amount of data accumulated that undoubtedly provides them with more than enough information to figure out which keywords, in and of themselves, are unlikely to have high CTRs regardless of your business or your ad.

As well, they can use this data to identify exceptions to the general rule (e.g. Air might be a great keyword for people selling CDs for rock groups with the word "air" in their name; Google could easily detect that "air" only seems to achieve a high CTR when it is associated with certain other keywords in the same ad, and/or it only seems to work when it is being used by advertisers who are targeting the CD/music market.)

This doesn't take artificial intelligence -- just a huge data base, and the willingness to look for patterns in that data. :)

arikgub




msg:1121910
 5:44 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

PatrickDeese, sorry, I didn't make the connection.

All,

I am under impression that the min CPC depends not only on the Quality Score of a keyword, but also on the account history or may be on ALL campaigns in the account including campaigns unrelated to the keyword. Otherwise, I can not explain the large difference between the CPCs for some specific keywords others report on this board and the min CPC I get when entering the very same keywords into my campaigns. Some keywords in my account have $5.00 min CPC and no ad text optimization can change it, while I still see 4-5 ads appear for these keywords on G. I doubt others pay $5 per click on their ads, that would be crazy.

I tend to attribute this difference to the fact that I'm a novice and my first several campaigns went pretty bad and had a low CTRs. Is it possible Google's new policy is to keep successful advertizers and to get rid of unsuccessful ones?
Any other ideas for min CPC variation among advertizers?

arikgub

econman




msg:1121911
 7:04 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

The new system definitely considers your CTR history for that keyword, and any keywords that Google thinks are of a similar nature.

This information has always been part of Google's system -- but in the past it was used to influence your position on the page, relative to your bid and it also influenced whether or not you were allowed to run any ads on that keyword, or similar keywords.

With the new system you can "pay to play." If you are a novice who doesn't write successful ads, very few people will click on your ads, and thus you will only pay the $5 per click on very rare occasions; in the meantime your poorly worded ads tie up some of Google's screen real estate for a lot of user impressions.

arrowman




msg:1121912
 10:27 pm on Aug 24, 2005 (gmt 0)

If I get your "Air" example correctly, Google now has some highly sophisticated Artificial Intelligence system

There was nothing in the example that suggested it's artificial. Why do you think Google is always looking for the brightest people? :-)

Seriously, search frequency would probably do the trick. It occurs (somewhat) frequently in multiword phrases, hardly ever as a one word query.

And ctr of course. I don't think many people searching for an air purifier will click on an ad for off road tires (whatever that may be). Adwords will notice the low ctr of this word in his account compared to the same word in other accounts.

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