homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.166.84.82
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Pubcon Platinum Sponsor 2014
Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdWords
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: buckworks & eWhisper & skibum

Google AdWords Forum

This 44 message thread spans 2 pages: 44 ( [1] 2 > >     
On Trial/On Hold Mess
A hypothesis - one of my guesses...
eWhisper

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 9:42 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

After having about 100 keywords disabled with 0 impressions (in an account with a 4.5% CTR this month), I went on an investigation spree.

First, I looked to make sure that these keywords had appeared nowhere else in their campaigns ever, and they hadn't. They had only ever appeared in one ad group.

So, what else could possibly be causing these unique keywords to be disabled?

What (outside of content match) causes the most problems?Expanded Broad match

I then used google's suggestion tool for every word that was disabled, and what they did seem to have in common was that there was a broad match combination they would have shown for.

Is Google using broadmatch and synonyms of words to determine if other similar (but not exact) keywords should be disabled? That seems to be the only common link between words with 0 impressions being disabled.

Are my exact matches never being shown because of a broad match I tried just to see if it would work? Or because [crazy blue widget] must be related to widgets, and therefore is doomed to fail?

Somewhere, there has to be a logical explanation. Most programmers I know are logical, and they did create this algo we're dealing with.

 

ugamis1

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 10:08 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

This happens to 'phrase matching' matching also for targeted keywords. I would be quite suprised if Google employees reading this forum thought the current system was even close to perfect or workable.

eWhisper

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 10:49 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hypothesis 2:

Google has instituted 'theming' of keywords for natural searches.

A search for any popular financial term will bring up serps of people broad matching one word keywords.

A search for 'photography' will bring up the same.

A search for 'financial word photography' should bring up phrase/broadmatch results for people bidding on one or the other theme - however there are 0 matches.

To take this even further, it seems these themes are based on single keywords.

A search for 'real estate' bring up broad/phrase match terms.

A search for 'photography real estate' bring up almost exclusively photography terms, when there are a lot of people in my local area bidding on geo targeted terms which should be showing for any phrase that includes the word real estate. In this hypothesis, this is due to Google having themed photography, but not real estate, therefore, photography is trumping real estate.

This is good because if the themes cross, then Google is guessing that it's not a search that will end with a customer purchasing.

It is bad because Google guesses wrong a lot of the times (especially with neighborhood terms for real estate) about cross theming and not showing ads when there are plenty of relevant ones to be shown.

martinibuster

WebmasterWorld Administrator martinibuster us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 10:53 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

You're not alone in seeing bad decisions, and I mean really bad decisions, regarding keywords being disabled. I've never had so many keywords disabled, especially some with high ctrs.

cline

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:07 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

I've seen this weird behavior too. I cannot figure out why the keywords are being disabled without ever being run, and for which there's no other match that will run the ads.

buckworks

WebmasterWorld Administrator buckworks us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:09 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

I'm seeing it too ... dozens of terms disabled that are EXACTLY relevant to the product being advertised.

HitProf

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:40 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

I see a lot of keywords disabled as well, many of them with 0 impressions. I read somewhere in the help files about "no searches at all in 90 days" but the account isn't yet 90 days old. There was also something about words too similar to other words causing a keyword to be disabled. This could be the case but I don't think that's a good idea.

werty

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:42 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

I have a few campaigns that had keywords shutdown with 100% CTR. They were three to four phrase keywords, but they were TARGETED.

So now it seems like my 3-4 word keyword phrases such as "chicago illinois widget makers" does not come up anymore, and neither does my "widget makers" keyword, even though it is broadmatched and I am paying 10x the price.

It seems like you are making a huge mistake if you are not allowing the targeted keyword purchases to show up for the low cost, and also not allowing the broad keywords to show up at a high cost?

eWhisper

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:53 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hypothesis 3.

This is related to broadmatched keywords becoming exact matches ( [webmasterworld.com...] )

Situation 1: If I start with 3 different versions of a keyword, and the broadmatched term is then made a phrase match. The broadmatch term is then disabled, but because its not a phrase match - it disables my phrase match as well.

Situation 2: I'm advertising for the exact same product in both Chicago and New York. Surprise, my keywords are exactly the same - but shown to a very different audience.

So, when the New Yorkers don't like my broad match, and thus it's made a phrase match, and then to add more insult - my keyword gets disabled as New Yorkers just don't want my product, it takes out my 8%CTR Chicago phrase matched keyword even though Chicagoans are buying it in mass.

Is my broadmatch being disabled, or is the matching option that my broadmatch has become actually being disabled?

[edited by: eWhisper at 11:58 pm (utc) on Dec. 6, 2004]

HitProf

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:53 pm on Dec 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

I've just found that some of my "in trial" keywords have had 0 impressions in 7 days :(

FromRocky

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 2:04 am on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

Situation 1: If I start with 3 different versions of a keyword, and the broadmatched term is then made a phrase match. The broadmatch term is then disabled, but because its not a phrase match - it disables my phrase match as well.

Although they behavior the same as the broadmatch term is in "phrase match" stage) but they're different keywords, therfore, the disabled broadmatch term will not affect the phrase match.

Situation 2: I'm advertising for the exact same product in both Chicago and New York. Surprise, my keywords are exactly the same - but shown to a very different audience.

If one of them is disabled, all of them in the same account will be disabled since they're the same keywords regardless of different markets, ad-groups or campaigns.

AdWordsAdvisor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member adwordsadvisor us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 2:38 am on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

This is a fascinating thread, eWhisper, and I think I need a chance let it all sink in!

Once I've had a chance to digest this, I'll consult with some techy sorts, and post again with what I learn.

More soon...

AWA

eWhisper

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 5:02 am on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

Although they behavior the same as the broadmatch term is in "phrase match" stage) but they're different keywords, therfore, the disabled broadmatch term will not affect the phrase match.

What I see on my end is a different keyword.
The question, does Google's backend make the distinction?

I can explain all of the above from the front end and why each theory has holes.

The question is, does their database see what I do, or read it as something completely different?

rbarker

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 7:20 am on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)


AWA...

Suggestion. Tell the techs to experiment after the holidays.

gopi

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 5:53 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

With all the this recent changes in adwords i doubt it still usable for the average non-techie smalltime mom/pop advertisers!

FromRocky

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 7:21 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

The exact algorithms are unknown except some experts at Google. However, the results of these algorithms are affecting us so much. So, we like to propose some speculations or theories to explain the outcome. Like you, I sometimes wrote some of my speculations on this forum.

In mean time (of waiting AWA for his clarification on this topic, as I hope,) I try again to speculate my thoughts.

In the last couple of weeks, I have tried to delete haft of my keywords or terms, which were disabled. Over this volume, I estimate

90% of the keywords or terms have no impression,
8% have CTR of 0.5% or less, and
2% have CTR of 0.5% or higher.

There is no question for the 8%. 2% problem has been discussed on this forum from time to time. The answer is that the data is based on the Google searches only.

The main concern is about 90%. As I examined the data, the disabled keywords are consist of any types. They are both new (less than 90 days) and old, unique phrases and single word & generic keywords or broad and exact matches.

1.Old keywords with no impression: It’s acceptable since Google has stated that it will disable them.
Keywords may be disabled if they don't meet the quality threshold or if they are older than 90 days and have never triggered an ad.

2. New keywords with no impression will be governed by
We predict your keyword’s CTR based on the performance history of the same or similar keywords
or

we'll now predict its CTR based on data such as the performance of your account and other accounts with the same or similar keywords.

The emphasized keywords from the above quote are: your account, other accounts, same keywords and similar keywords. Thus we have four combinations:

a.The same keyword in your account.
b.The same keyword in other accounts.
c.The similar keywords in your account
d.The similar keywords in other accounts.

The “similar” keywords and "other" accounts are more interesting and debatable.

After over a year, Google has collected and formed a database as I believe on every keyword or term you can think off. That is a reason why Google will use all of the above combinations to predict your new keyword or term. I do not know the degree of important for each combination in their algorithm to determine the predicted CTR. This degree of important will be depended on the availability of the data. In a well established account, I believe that the degree of important will be the same as the above sequence or “a” is the most important factor while “d’ is the least in calculation of the predicted CTR. In a new account, “b’ is the main factor, and in some cases, “d” is the only factor due to the lack of data.

So my main point is this, the data in our account is not the only one, which is based on for the prediction of our new keyword’s CTR. Someone has done a poor job (bad ad copy, overlapsed keywords, etc.) and this has affected us. I blame you, eWhisper.

FromRocky

AdWordsAdvisor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member adwordsadvisor us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 8:38 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

It seems that having keywords with very few impressions (or even no impressions) disabled, is a major theme running through this thread. Let's start there.

I'd expect to see this under only a few circumstances. The first two are pretty well known, and have in fact already been mentioned in this thread.

* The keywords were previously used in the account, and disabled - but not deleted.
* The keywords have had zero impressions for an extended period of time, and have been disabled as a result.

There is another facet of the system that might explain the behavior that some people on this thread are seeing in their accounts. It is very similar to what eWhisper was heading towards in msg #9, above. To explain this requires a little background first:

When a keyword is entered as a broad match, it is, in reality, showing on the exact match, plus different variations, plus similar terms.

Example keyword: widgets. A variation would be: cheap widgets. A 'similar' term might be: gizmos.

When a broad match keyword does not perform well on it's variations and/or similar terms, Google will disable those variations and/or similar terms without disabling the keyword itself. Thus, the keyword is showing as if it were an exact match.

At this point, if the keyword still does not perform well, then it is disabled completely and marked as disabled within the account. In other words, it has now been disabled as a broad, a phrase, and as an exact match.

So, at this point:

* If you re-enter that keyword again, in the same Ad Group, as a phrase or exact match, it'll be disabled almost immediately, possibly even with zero impressions. The reason this can happen: the system has already tried phrase and exact match with this keyword, and it didn't meet performance standards.

* If you delete the keyword and re-enter it in a new Ad Group with a new ad text, then it'll get a chance to run and gather impressions while the system decides whether to make it 'normal', or disable it, based on it's performance.

AWA

cline

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 8:41 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

FromRocky, why are you blaming eWhisper?!

buckworks

WebmasterWorld Administrator buckworks us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 8:55 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

AdwordsAdvisor, what you describe makes sense, but is quite different from what we're seeing.

Phrases never before used in the account, strongly relevant to the product, are being disabled before they have any impressions at all.

Robsp

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 9:59 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

I agree and have stressed in other threads that this new system is a serious step back. It seems to me that the techies are trying to invent a system that does everything automatically including decisions that are actually for the advertizer to make.

I vote for a return of the "if you do not make 0.5% in 1000 impressions you are gone" rule which was clean and simple. This system requires a Phd to understand and as I said before, increases management cost which is bad for G as well.

eWhisper

WebmasterWorld Administrator ewhisper us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:43 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

The problems with the current Google system then:

1. It doesn't let you know which match type options have been disabled. I have several keywords which the broad is enabled, the phrase & exact are disabled, yet the broad is showing as a phrase match.

It seems that if Google is going to decide that the broad isn't working, it should disable the broad and then start using the phrase match instead.

2. Broad/phrase isn't truly working. If one goes the the walkthrough in message 3 with any word they know is at least really being phrase matched - they'll see many examples of searches where the keywords which should be showing aren't.

It seems that Google is using their broad symantec technology and applying it to phrase match. That, or exact/phrase match really don't exist as stated and that the themed technology is being used on every keyword.

This can't be of benefit to Google (and certainly not to advertisers). I'm looking at a lot of high priced markets where there are 0 ads or the incorrect set of ads are being displayed due to how theming is working.

AdWordsAdvisor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member adwordsadvisor us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:58 pm on Dec 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

AdwordsAdvisor, what you describe makes sense, but is quite different from what we're seeing.

Phrases never before used in the account, strongly relevant to the product, are being disabled before they have any impressions at all.

Buckworks, this doesn't really fit with what I know of the system - so I'll go into it deeper with the tech folks.

I know we're really limited here as to the level of detail we can post, and in this case I think details are key - so I may end up asking if you would be willing to write in from within the account in question, with a detailed overview of what you've seen.

In the meantime, and just out of curiosity - are the new keywords that are disabled with zero impressions in a sense 'variations' of keywords that have already been disabled? Just thinking out loud here...

AWA

roitracker

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 2:59 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

From AdWords FAQs:
All keywords that have been present within an account for at least 90 days, but received no impressions during their lifetime, are automatically disabled to maintain advertising program quality for both our users and our advertisers...

I fail to see how no impressions can possibly affect quality for users OR advertisers.

keywords that have received no impressions at all during a three month period are unlikely to receive impressions at any time in the future.

Maybe not, but why delete them? Why penalise advertisers that take the time to make a list of low volume, highly targeted keywords? After all, just one of these highly targeted phrases could very likely lead to a sale compared to a broader term.

Also, since some of the disabled terms have not yet run for 90 days, are we to take it that the 90 day rule is not account-specific?

AdWordsAdvisor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member adwordsadvisor us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 3:23 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

I fail to see how no impressions can possibly affect quality for users OR advertisers.

Maybe not, but why delete them? Why penalise advertisers that take the time to make a list of low volume, highly targeted keywords? After all, just one of these highly targeted phrases could be very likely to lead to a sale compared to a broader term.


Those are excellent questions, roitracker. And the answers are actually quite straightforward.

You may have heard me get up on my soapbox in the past few months and talk about the seeming trend of advertisers entering tens of thousands of often entirely untargeted keywords in accounts. (Or even hundreds of thousands, for that matter. Or more.)

Well, these dead-in-the-water keywords end up numbering in the millions and maybe even the billions pretty darn soon. And each one has to be tracked 24/7, and their non-stats have to be shown in accounts.

Bottom line, this had the potential of slowing things down for every single advertiser - which is something worth avoiding, IMO.

keywords that have received no impressions at all during a three month period are unlikely to receive impressions at any time in the future.

I have to say that I agree with this. There are literally, uhh, many dozens of searches done on Google each day. And given the volume, if a keyword has not been pinged even one single time in three months, it probably isn't going to happen.

Remember, just one impression, and you're golden. Well, maybe not golden - but exempt. ;)

AWA

werty

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 4:40 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

I have to say that I agree with this. There are literally, uhh, many dozens of searches done on Google each day. And given the volume, if a keyword has not been pinged even one single time in three months, it probably isn't going to happen.

Remember, just one impression, and you're golden. Well, maybe not golden - but exempt. ;)

Could one just automate the lookup of their keyword list and avoid this new filtering? It seems like it is not what you intended, but it seems like a a possible solution.

I guess another solution would be what overture does(they have been at it for years). When you add a series of keywords they go through an automated check to see if they are duplicate, and then go through a volume check to see if they will even be seen. The difference is that Overture lets you know which keywords will not be added because of dupes or due to not enough volume through their editorial status page and let you know by email how many are approved and how many get declined.

It seems like AdWords problem is that it almost seems to take down entire adgroups at a time, even disabling keywords that ARE performing well.

buckworks

WebmasterWorld Administrator buckworks us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 7:29 am on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

asking if you would be willing to write in from within the account in question

I might be willing, but I only work for free if I'm having fun.

If you want full details, get the report function fixed. I can only find disabled keywords by going through the adgroups one at a time. And that's not fun.

gopi

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 6:20 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)


given the volume, if a keyword has not been pinged even one single time in three months, it probably isn't going to happen.

According to this Google Presentation [haifa.il.ibm.com] almost 50% of google searches are unique phrases ,which IMO may not be searched for the next 3 months!

With Google's current system , advertisers as well as google fail to monetize a significant part(50%) of the traffic!

AdWordsAdvisor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member adwordsadvisor us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:30 pm on Dec 8, 2004 (gmt 0)

Could one just automate the lookup of their keyword list and avoid this new filtering? It seems like it is not what you intended, but it seems like a a possible solution.

I guess another solution would be what overture does(they have been at it for years). When you add a series of keywords they go through an automated check to see if they are duplicate, and then go through a volume check to see if they will even be seen. The difference is that Overture lets you know which keywords will not be added because of dupes or due to not enough volume through their editorial status page and let you know by email how many are approved and how many get declined.

This is an nteresting perspective, werty, which I've just pasted into the Advertiser Feedback report that I'll be sending out tomorrow.

AWA

jjv5

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 11:24 am on Dec 9, 2004 (gmt 0)

Keywords disabled with 0 impressions or less than 0.5% CTR have some logic. You may not like it, but it's there. Google does not have enough data initially so they go on trial based on some predicted CTR. If the CTR never reaches 0.5% or more they get disabled. Exactly when and how that happens is not published, but at least there is no arguing they are below 0.5%.

On the other hand, keywords with high CTR also get disabled. FromRocky suggests this is explained by CTR counting only from google search, not content, suggesting if your google search CTR is les sthan 0.5% they get disabled:

90% of the keywords or terms have no impression,
8% have CTR of 0.5% or less, and
2% have CTR of 0.5% or higher.

There is no question for the 8%. 2% problem has been discussed on this forum from time to time. The answer is that the data is based on the Google searches only.

Data in my own account shows this is not true. I have a keyword that has been disabled after 1063 impressions with a 6.1% CTR. It started out in trial mode. It gathered impressions and the CTR actually got higher as it got more impressions. Just after it passed the 1,000 mark it was disabled. It is not a reporting delay.

This is the real problem with the new performance algorithm. Underperforming keywords have some explanation. Like it or not they underperform according to google. But disabling keywords with good CTR seems nonsensical. I have yet to find any reasonable explanation. The hypothesis that only search counts is not valid. Anyone have any other ideas?

james_allot

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4028 posted 12:23 pm on Dec 9, 2004 (gmt 0)

But disabling keywords with good CTR seems nonsensical. I have yet to find any reasonable explanation. The hypothesis that only search counts is not valid. Anyone have any other ideas?

jjv5, Welcome to WebmasterWorld!

I have no idea. But you are not alone as I am sure there are lots of people who are facing the same problem. Maybe AWA will need to shed some light on why good performing keywords gets disabled even though it's CTR is way above 4%. (In jjv5 case it was 6.1% CTR)

This 44 message thread spans 2 pages: 44 ( [1] 2 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdWords
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved