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Huge keywords list question
and some newbie questions
hairycoo




msg:1156027
 8:53 am on Oct 30, 2004 (gmt 0)

This is my first attempt at AdWords although I have some marginal knowledge of basic principles from other forums on this board. I plan to go through this whole forum very soon but I'd like to start a campaign sooner :)

I've identified the primary kw phrases then used a thesaurus and a tool to combine them like mad. As a result I've now got a list of approx 50,000 keywords, 99% of 4 words or more.

Most of these words show <0.1 searches and they are very cheap. Is it a good approach to have a large pool of such infrequently searched and cheap kwds versus bidding more ($1-2 or more) for fewer keywords with more searches?

I know not to get involved in bidding wars and just settle with crumbs from others. For keywords of $4 and up how much should I bid to get some crumbs?

Which approach would be best for someone just starting out who would at least like to break even at first (margin for 1 sale approx $80).

Also, how would it be best to group this huge number of keywords? I was thinking of grouping the few and more expensive kwds together and leaving the others in groups of ~1,500 each. Should I have more ads within the same group for some of the keywords?

Given that we are talking about phrases of 4-5 words minimum, should I do a broad match with negative keywords or mix the words up in every possible combination and do exact match? This would make the number of keywords unmanagable.

My 50,000 keyphrases contain plurals. If I use just the singulars, will AdWords show ads up for plurals as well?

Thank you.

 

sadelb




msg:1156028
 4:41 pm on Oct 30, 2004 (gmt 0)

I have a similar question to this... Is it a disadvantage to put up over 80 or 90 keywords. Rather then just 1 popular one.. will the 80 or 90 more keywords disrupt the popular one or will the popular keyword still show up just as much?

hairycoo




msg:1156029
 5:09 pm on Oct 30, 2004 (gmt 0)

All my keywords are very specific and relevant to the product but nearly all of them show <0.1. The ones that show higher numbers are already too expensive. What's a girl to do? Do I just hope that this large pool of keywords draws in 1 click a month per each keyword or do something else?

What are the drawbacks of huge keyword lists? I did a search but maybe I'm not phrasing my question right.

marc




msg:1156030
 11:27 am on Oct 31, 2004 (gmt 0)

Almost-newbie (but probably useful) reply...
I have also followed the advice to put tons of keywords (in my case several dozen) - And in my experience it has been a complete waste of time - As you say, expected impressions <0.1, and the keywords sat there for weeks without a single impression ...let alone a click or a conversion! Indeed, even if you do get an impression or two a month, there is no reason to hope for a 100% CTR just because the KW is "exotic" ...

Between the exorbitant prices of the popular, obvious KW, and the uselesness of the "exotic" KWs, one has to wonder about the economics of the whole thing...
Marc

hairycoo




msg:1156031
 9:32 am on Nov 1, 2004 (gmt 0)

Anyone else? Other suggestions? :(

Karmatar




msg:1156032
 2:47 pm on Nov 1, 2004 (gmt 0)

The best approach I can recommend for breaking even at first is to start small. Uploading and sorting (yes I would sort them into different groups based on category of keyword, and cost) 50,000 keywords would be huge undertaking, and without adequate information could be costly.

I'm assuming that this is your first Adwords campaign? I'd pick what you consider to be your 100 or so most relevant keywords and start with them. Don't bid too much for them, I would reckon that for a moderately competitive keyword you'd want to be at the bottom of the first page of the serps or second page at worst (use the adwords traffic estimator to show you the predicted average position). This will allow you to get some idea of what the conversion rate is like (either use Google's own conversion tracker or some third party conversion tracking software) and you can assess the profitability of your campaign without investing a lot of money and time.

It's probably true to say that your ad copy and your own website are more important in getting a return on investment than the number of keywords you bid on.

Broad or exact match? I've had good results with broad match, and yes with broad match Google will show your results if the user searches on a plural and you've only bid on the singular. This is not true of exact match. Definitely include negative keywords if there are any areas of confusion in your field (e.g. you're selling wood planes you don't want to get lots of aeroplane enthusiasts). The only way to know whether broad or exact match is right for you is to experiment: for example, have one group set on broad match, and a second group (with more combinations) set to exact match. Then monitor the results.

Ultimately Adwords is a very variable affair. Different areas get different volumes of traffic, and that traffic can behave differently. The only way to be certain is to experiment, and to make that managable you need to start small, and monitor your results as closely as you can. Then once you have made Adwords profitable for you on a small scale, you can build it up.

paybacksa




msg:1156033
 3:24 pm on Nov 1, 2004 (gmt 0)

Rather than get stuck in "analysis paraylsis" why not just use yur best judgement to pick 100 of those keywords, and start a campaign?

After three days, look at the results. You'll have aot to conisder w/r to your creative (ads), your racking, our site, and the Gogle feedback about slowing and stopping your words.

When you have it settled, then why not take the top keywords and go after variations/relateds? Add another 100 that way and see what happens to the lot.

I suggest you won't learn to much if your keywords extend to "page 2" since you have so many factors to consider.

Of course if all you want to do it throw up thousands of $0.05 keywords and see if you get lucky, there's nothing stopping you. In that case it won't matter how you put them up, right?

justshelley




msg:1156034
 10:13 pm on Nov 1, 2004 (gmt 0)

Google has changed a lot, especially in the last year. These days, I have fewer terms (20,000 in 16 AdGroups) but I work with a lot more AdGroups than I did a year ago.

Grouping the terms to fit the Ad text makes a HUGE impact on your CTR's and on the overall success of your campaign. I recently separated terms in one account because people that used the term "corporate" wouldn't click on the ad that used "business ###". I had to put all the terms using "corporate ###" into a separate AdGroup where the ad also used the term "corporate ###".

Can you still do well with 5 cent bids...YES! I have a one account that has a $100 monthly budget and only 5 cent bids. I have to turn this account off every month because it goes over budget. I stayed away from short, general, popular terms and opted instead to use second and third level relevant terms to the industry that appeal to its targeted audience.

On the broad match question, it wouldn't hurt to start with broad match and see which terms do well. After a week or so, you can create separate AdGroups for phrase terms that you created out of the broad terms that are doing well. I have actually had exact terms hurt the overall CTR of my AdGroups so I tend to stick with broad and phrase terms unless it's a special situation.

anallawalla




msg:1156035
 12:49 am on Nov 2, 2004 (gmt 0)

In theory, covering all bases sounds good, but 50,000?

You might hit a few physical limits if you are trying to fit 50,000 keywords in one account. There is an old post here with those numbers, e.g. max number of campaigns, max number of ad groups, max keywords per ad group etc.

Apart from that issue, you will have a hard job making an effective campaign, as you would be tempted to use shortcuts as opposed to finding good landing pages and writing targeted creatives.

webdiversity




msg:1156036
 1:10 am on Nov 2, 2004 (gmt 0)

We go through a purging exercise on campaigns all the time.

Two months of no clicks and no impressions = the "keyword" has been covered off by other variations higher up the food chain.

Concatenation tools are fantastic, but it tends to be GIGO - garbarge in = garbage out

Limit of an ad group = 2000 keywords so 50,000 would be 25 different ad groups to cover them off.

if 99% of your words are 4 word variations and more that leaves 500 of 3 or less.

Optimise the living daylights out of those 500 and discard the rest, the reward will not even be close to the effort expended in getting it into play (even though to produce the bulk output is a really quick process).

hairycoo




msg:1156037
 7:38 am on Nov 2, 2004 (gmt 0)

<<The best approach I can recommend for breaking even at first is to start small. Uploading and sorting (yes I would sort them into different groups based on category of keyword, and cost)>>

I assume that the most expensive keywords go together and the less expensive ones don't?

The reason I ended up with so many variations was to try to come up with keywords that are not targeted by other people. I have now given up on the idea of using that huge list.

This is what I did:

- I have taken all of the >0.1 keywords out of these 50,000.
- I wrote every possible variation of each and put it in broad match to see which is the one people really use
- I've ended up with 280 keywords and put them all in exact, broad and phrase match.

Now I'm left with ~500 keywords of 0.1 or more clicks and bids ranging from 0.30 to $17. This list will be manually reviewed.

I've done this bit of research with keywords all in one group. I will break them down to small ones. Is this way to do it accurate or can the numbers get skewed based on other keywords in the group?

What I'm trying to say is that I tried a heck of a lot of variations/related to the top keywords, hoping to find that gold nugget but hasn't really happened yet, seems like this "niche" is well and truly busy.

I've tried thinking outside the box but the combinations I came up with are either not searched at all or are very expensive.

Any tips or threads I could read on mining for keywords would be great :)

Thanks everyone

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