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This 66 message thread spans 3 pages: < < 66 ( 1 [2] 3 > >     
This New Broad Matching "Feature".....
Any initial reactions? More high quality traffic or just junk traffic?
skibum




msg:1122811
 4:02 am on Oct 10, 2003 (gmt 0)

It hasn't been up for long but does anyone have any thoughts on this new broad matching "feature"?

So far here its just resulted in a lot more traffic and expense that doesn't convert so switched everything to phrase match.

It would be nice if the option was still there to keep the old matching in place while being able to see the potential broad matches without automatically getting them or having to put tons of negatives on everything.

 

GoogleGuy




msg:1122841
 6:44 am on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey ianama, I checked a little while ago and the adwords login worked fine for me. I have heard of scumware that can hijack DNS values for Google/Yahoo via a hosts file in a strange location on a computer--please follow-up if you consistently can't reach the adwords login page. I'd be curious to know more about that.

Just to address on what the last couple of people asked: expanded matching only applies to broad-matched keywords. The system won't create expanded matches for any of your phrase- or exact-matched keywords. If you don't want expanded matching on any of your keywords, making them into phrase or exact matches will avoid doing the expanded matching. So you're exactly right, HughMungus: if you use phrase or exact matching, you won't get additional terms. That's what I'd recommend if you're worried. The other option is to still use broad matching, but to add any keyword you don't want as a negative match in your keyword list.

Furmanov




msg:1122842
 8:58 am on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

yesterday I converted some of my keywords from broad matches to phrase matches, the average position dropped from 1.0-2.0 to 7.0-8.0 (max cpc is the same). Think it's due to the fact that these "red widget" keywords are new and have no ctr earned previously. Has anyone experienced anythinf like this?

TomWaits




msg:1122843
 12:08 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

add any keyword you don't want as a negative match in your keyword list.

You can't do that if the negative match isn't working properly. And it isn't.

michaelbs




msg:1122844
 12:16 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Furmanov

What you are experiencing is exactly the point I was making earlier in this thread. You have just lost all your previously earned CTR mate.

Why did this have to be like this GoogleGuy?

Cheers, Mike

Tropical Island




msg:1122845
 1:50 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

GG said: "The other option is to still use broad matching, but to add any keyword you don't want as a negative match in your keyword list."

Except this broad matching is NOT working and it is not a budget or CTR problem.

See my last post on
[webmasterworld.com...]

The negative key words do appear to be working on the terms I checked.

AdWordsAdvisor




msg:1122846
 3:32 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Tropical_Island, I'll do my best to check into your issue, using the information you've provided here and elsewhere.

As mentioned by GoogleGuy in a related thread, engineering reports that the negative matching issue was resolved late on Friday the 10th. So, I suspect that another issue may be at work with your ads.

As to the broader issues discussed in this thread, I'll be compiling a summary of your comments, quoted verbatim, and forwarding them to AdWords management and product development teams. So please know that your comments will be heard.

Lastly, thanks to GG for posting on this forum over the weekend!

michaelbs




msg:1122847
 3:51 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Thanks Adwords Advisor

Furmanov




msg:1122848
 5:37 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

michaelbs,

no! this cannot be true! why (crying like a wolf)? why did I spend many months to gain the 15-25% ctr I used to enjoy? oh my god

spent last night changing broad match to phrase match... looks like i'm gonna have another sleepless night changing phrase match back to broad match :(( i won't be able to complete this w/o a bottle of wine

looks like the only solution is to create another set of ads for the same keywords but with "" and wait wait wait till they earn some considerable ctr and stop the broad match ads after that

GoogleGuy




msg:1122849
 5:39 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey TomWaits, I do think the negative match is working correctly now. I believe it was fixed by the end of the day Friday (Pacific time).

I'm not sure if switching from broad to phrase matching gives credit for previous CTR. In another thread, one other person thought they lost their previous CTR, but another poster said things didn't change for them. I'll be happy to ask about that.

Shak




msg:1122850
 5:40 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

I would really like some feedback on this from some PPC bid managers acting in capacity of handling various accounts.

The few who I have spoken are not in the slightest bit worried, and the reason given was.

Broad match, whats that then :)

so is it me, or does anyone else wonder, what's going on, surely if those guys dont do broad match, what the hell is going on with the rest of the people in this thread.

Shak

TomWaits




msg:1122851
 5:48 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

so is it me, or does anyone else wonder, what's going on, surely if those guys dont do broad match, what the hell is going on with the rest of the people in this thread.

It's just you. Everyone else is having differing levels of adjustment and problems.

roitracker




msg:1122852
 6:50 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

The few who I have spoken are not in the slightest bit worried, and the reason given was.

Broad match, whats that then

It's easy to be complacent when it's someone else's money you're playing with.

1. Average CPC has increased across the board.
2. CTR & ROI are not nearly as predictable as before.

webdiversity




msg:1122853
 7:06 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Broad match...... never do it, but it does throw up a whole new set of potential problems.

CTR will suffer as the casual advertiser who set up their accounts with broad match by default end up being shown for some searches that will be relevant and a lot that won't.

Those that use exact and phrase will find in the early days they will need to pay more to compete or sit tight and ride out the short storm that brews in the bakground.

In some instances the results will be OK, but generally speaking ROI will drop. The reason results will appear OK is that if you did broad match and nothing else then you will see an increase in the number of clicks per day.

I'm certainly not worried about it, but it needs to be watched.

Shak




msg:1122854
 7:10 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

roitracker

I wouldnt be seen dead talking to bid managers like that, I am referring to guys who reduce CPCs, while increasing CTR, resulting in better ROI.

webdiversity

You were on my list of people to call, but the person before you on the list has a much sexier voice, so completely forgot, sorry mate :)

Shak

seasalt




msg:1122855
 7:28 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

GoogleGuy or AWA:

Who should appear first in AdWords in the following situation where a Google user is searching for handmade red widgets:

Advertiser #1
keyword: [handmade red widgets] -- (exact match)
bid: $0.34

Advertiser #2
keyword: widgets -- (newly broad matched)
bid: $0.61

Advertiser #1 would generally have more relevancy (a basic Google tenet).

Is there any provision going forward for additional "points" for exact keyword relevancy just like there is currently a boost for a higher CTR (another form of relevancy)?

Is it only just a matter of time before advertiser #2 potentially falls back or is removed because of lower CTR despite a higher bid?

seasalt

Furmanov




msg:1122856
 8:26 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

so is it me, or does anyone else wonder, what's going on, surely if those guys dont do broad match, what the hell is going on with the rest of the people in this thread.

it depends... for some type of businesses (as mine) the old good broad match was the solution. The choice was keyword1+keyword2 /broad match/ +100-200 negatives or 2.000-4.000 phrase matches per ad. Sure if i knew that broad match would become even broader I'd do thousands of phrase matches but...

time costs too, especially for a small business. When you calculate your roi you should also take into consideration the time spent building the campaign

old broad match + negatives worked very well for us, I was proud of the ctr and roi we had in september

well, looks like now I have to re-learn using adwords

[edited by: Furmanov at 10:11 pm (utc) on Oct. 13, 2003]

Furmanov




msg:1122857
 8:39 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Shak,

would you please give some advice to those who had been doing broad match? I cannot use broad match anymore cause it's too broad now and affects my ctr... I cannot switch to phrase match cause my avg. position would drop dramatically... do you see any solution except for adding more and more negative keyqords?

[edited by: Furmanov at 10:10 pm (utc) on Oct. 13, 2003]

Shak




msg:1122858
 8:41 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Furmanov,

have not done broadmatch for a long time, so have to pass on that my friend.

Shak

GoogleGuy




msg:1122859
 9:54 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hey seasalt, I believe that widgets would get lower clickthrough than handmade red widgets, so even though someone is willing to bid more, the lower clickthrough would tend to let the more specific ad float to the top once there's enough data.

TomWaits




msg:1122860
 11:09 pm on Oct 13, 2003 (gmt 0)

once there's enough data.

Right but, for now, the lack of data is killing the people who have worked the most on their campaigns. I've got more useless jetsam and flotsam floating to the top than I can even believe. I mean it's worse than some of the stuff coming out of the second tier PPC's. I had no idea there were so many "Make $50 to $300/hour" ads in AdWords.

AdWordsAdvisor




msg:1122861
 12:30 am on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

Back to your particular question for a sec, seasalt, way back there in post 45.

With only the information you have given, it isn't really possible to answer the question about which ad would appear first.

This is because position is equally determined by your Max CPC as compared to your competitor and your CTR for the keyword as compared to your competitor. And in your example, you give only CPC. However, if we assume the CTR was equal, then Advertiser #2 would appear on top. Please see the 'chart' that appears at the link below for some details as to the math involved.

From the AdWords FAQ:
https://adwords.google.com/select/pricing.html#campaign3

You also asked:

Is there any provision going forward for additional "points" for exact keyword relevancy just like there is currently a boost for a higher CTR (another form of relevancy)?

I am not aware of any of any plan to directly factor this variable into ad positioning - although it is indirectly figured in for the reason that GG suggests above: the exact match is likely to have a higher CTR.

Neil_S




msg:1122862
 7:36 am on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

Unlike some of you we're not getting irrelevant clicks. Our problem is that 'broad match' is hardly working at all! Clicks are 10% of a week ago, and random tests are not showing our ads where they should be matching.

The comments about Google turning into Overture overnight are very worrying. We finally terminated all business with Overture last month, due to their continuing incompetence and obstruction (sorry, they refer to it as customer service). I can hardly believe that a month later, Google, who I've always considered an excellent company, may be going the same way! Let me out of this business.

Neil

webdiversity




msg:1122863
 8:39 am on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

Clicks are 10% of a week ago

That's because you've just found out a whole new bunch of your competitors and associated advertisers are appearing where you might have appeared in splendid isolation or one of a few.

And this has been dressed up as being beneficial to the advertiser?

Broad match is dead, long live phrase and exact.

vibgyor79




msg:1122864
 11:20 am on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

All the 'secret' keywords which none of the big guns knew about are now out in the open. That explains lower number of clicks that some are experiencing. Large advertisers with deep pockets but little time to do keyword research have definitely benefitted from the new 'feature'.

>>> Broad match is dead, long live phrase and exact

We are still using broad matched keywords but not allowing the 'expanded broad' matching to kick in. We plug in the keywords into the new keyword suggestion tool. If Google displays a expanded match list, we are creating new adgroups for those keywords.

The results are looking better now.

eWhisper




msg:1122865
 2:17 pm on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

I even ran every single term through the keyword suggestion tool to all the negative keywords I didn't want to appear for.

All that work seemed to do nothing, we're showing up for phrases that get a lot of searches a month (and hence should have shown up in the expanded broad match option initially) that the G suggestion term didn't show as being a broad match, and today, there is a completely new set of expanded broad match terms. How can we set up negative keywords when they keep adding more?

Tropical Island




msg:1122866
 6:42 pm on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

How can we set up negative keywords when they keep adding more?

It appears as though the system is learning as it goes along. In fact this is a good thing.

It's like checking Over's key word tool. Every month there are new terms added.

engine




msg:1122867
 7:30 pm on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

It's still early days however, there is a significant drop in traffic for some keywords and an increase in tyre kickers. We've pulled out of some areas because of this.

This is only good for Google and agents that know what they are doing. Those that don't know what they are doing will be paying through the nose.

In the long term, lower quality traffic will hurt Google. IMHO

skibum




msg:1122868
 9:16 pm on Oct 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

So far, it looks like the best, yet by far most time consuming solution is going to pull everything down and put up hundreds or thousands of exact matches and maybe a few phrase matches. After going through the broad match terms for a bunch of keywords often 50% or more are not close to being good matches and if that list keeps on changing........well, better to buy exactly what you want than to leave the ad dollars up to a beta technology.

Google ought to foot the bill for this experiment or at least knock the CPC down by about half on the expanded matches till the system hones in on better matches.

So much of search is judging intent indicated by the query rather than just picking synonyms. How good can a computer really get at that, especially when in most cases it is missing the most important part of the chain of events, the conversion data?

cagey1




msg:1122869
 12:46 am on Oct 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

I understand how using exact match will keep you from getting extra clicks for non-relevant matches, but I don't see how exact match will save you from the increased competition (and hence reduced clicks) brought about by the new broad match.

When you bid on "flower delivery" as an exact match, your listing would still be watered down by all the newly broadmatched "silk flowers", "flowers uk", etc. listings that will now appear along-side your exact match when someone searches for "flower delivery".

The only advertisers who are seeing more clicks are the ones who are already paying a a high cost per click. And the only way for smaller advertisers to retain their previous click level is to increase their per-click bids.

skibum




msg:1122870
 1:22 am on Oct 15, 2003 (gmt 0)

The only advertisers who are seeing more clicks are the ones who are already paying a a high cost per click.

Not here, traffic went out of site comparatively, probably to a bunch of terms with high search frequencies that no one wanted.

If you go for exact matches and come up with better creative, dynamic keyword insertion, etc, the ads are likely to attract more clicks. Of course it your competitors can afford to spend 2-3x what you can on a click, you can have the most relevant ads in the world but unless you can get dramatically higher CTRs your ads will still stay at the bottom.

Recently had one getting a 45-50% CTR over the course of a month or so and it still hung around 3rd place.

jiggleit




msg:1122871
 4:04 pm on Oct 17, 2003 (gmt 0)

I too hate the new feature. Our daily budget has now jumped from 700.00 daily to 2600.00. We use to have ads dealing with the company names of our clients and now everyone is listed. One of our clients use to be in position #1 for his company name at $0.05 a click, now we are on the bottom of the 3rd page. Where is the relevency there? One of our clients spends about $25,000 a month, now it looks like they will have to spend around $50,000 a month just to keep the positions they once had. I spent alot of time to create a great targeted campaign and now every lazy advertiser is there.

This is a horrible tool and it seems it is used just to make Google more money, unless you call lower ctr, lower relevency, lower positions helpful for advertisers and searchers.

:-\

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