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toolbar PageRank
Getting PageRank for a page that isn't indexed
chadlerh




msg:1104698
 4:32 pm on Jun 20, 2001 (gmt 0)

One of my newer pages has a page rank in the toolbar but if you try to search for it or type in the url it is definately not indexed. I think the toolbar maybe tapped into the new database but the sites aren't.

 

Chris_R




msg:1104699
 5:17 pm on Jun 20, 2001 (gmt 0)

Some have been experiencing a problem with sub pages that are not indexed showing up with PageRanks. These are on pages that can not be accessed by Google. Is this a new site or a new page on an already indexed site?

What you say makes sense, but it appeared to me from the last update that it was accessing the www.google set of data. I haven't noticed any changes in PR on the sites I have looked at yet. Hopefully what you described is what is happening - if that is the case we all should be seeing stuff very soon.

Also, I thought someone in here described the exact process by which it communicated. If that person is still around I would be interested in knowing. Someone else was having a problem with the toolbar and I was curious if it worked with standard port 80 requests.

chadlerh




msg:1104700
 5:43 pm on Jun 20, 2001 (gmt 0)

I guess its possible that this his been like this for a while and I did not notice it. Only the index page is listed in Google when you type in the URL. But all the pages on the site have a pagerank on the toolbar. The subpages are less than 2 months old.

Brett_Tabke




msg:1104701
 6:08 pm on Jun 20, 2001 (gmt 0)

PageRank is inherited throughout a site. You can create a page today and it inherits the parents PR value. Insite links...go for the insite links.

supa




msg:1104702
 3:34 am on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

Hello.
I've noticed the same thing as Chadlerh.
On my subpage i created one week ago i see a page rank (yes i have a link from my index to this page). Obviously this page is not idexed by google yet.
Brett_Tabke metnioned >>>PageRank is inherited throughout a site. You can create a page today and it inherits the parents PR value<<<
Do you mean that by showing up PR on my new page google assumes that this page is "important" since my index poins to it?
In that case how google can determines, without spidering my site, that i have a link from index to that new page?
Can some one clearify that for me?
Thnaks.

Brett_Tabke




msg:1104703
 10:12 am on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

Because it is on your domain. The pr value on a new page is actually the pr value for the whole domain. Rather a startling clue into PageRank eh?

How else would they have to assign a rank pages within a site?

If all they relied upon was inbound links, the mass majority of the pages on the internet would have zero page rank. I read a memo by a search engine last fall that said less than 1% of the pages on the net are inbound linked. If all PageRank relied upon was external links, they could only classify 1% of the pages on the net.

So, they have to supplement it with links within the site and inherit PageRank down into the site. Now you see why I always talk about insite links being so important. If you have a page that has high pr value, link it to as many pages in your site as you feel safe doing so. That linked page inherits the parents page rank (money for nothing).

chadlerh




msg:1104704
 4:02 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. If you are saying that the pageRank for this new page is simply there because it is a page within a domain that is indexed I think this is incorrect. If you put a page up that doesn't have a link to it on a site it will not even get indexed. If you put a page up and it has one link from another sub page with very low pageRank it will most likely have a page rank close to 0 even if the index page has a very high page rank. I think most everyone knows that pageRank is a score given to a page not to a domain. Brett Pages do not get indexed unless they have at least one link either external or inbound, therefore they don't have a pageRank until they are indexed. The pageRank is then based on the pageRank of these links. Yes it is well know that their is hidden web. A web that Google with never see because their are no links from the core to these pages of the web. This article says it is %22. [kkc.net...]
I've heard that it is much higer. If Google hasn't indexed the page or seen links to it would you tell me what is the formula to derive its pageRank.

supa




msg:1104705
 4:56 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

I think, since this page is not indexed yet, google just assumes that this page is "important" and gives it the same PR as to the index. So at this point i will agree with Brett_Tabke.
But as soon as google will spyder and index this page the PR will change to a calculated not assumed value.

Chris_R




msg:1104706
 5:07 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

I think there is some confusion here. This thread was originally about a BUG with the ToolBar. I am getting PageRank values for pages Google has never crawled - even those that are password protected.

This should not be happening. It should be gray. Other people have noticed this as well. This has never happened before to me. Google does not even know about these pages - there are no links to them - therefore there should be no PageRank.

For example - I just posted the following:

[searchnerd.com...]

It has a PageRank of 2. The main site has a PR of 3 (no making fun of my PageRank - it should be better after the update). Where is Google getting this? It is not linked to anything. I just uploaded it while writing this. This would not have shown up like this last week.

chadlerh




msg:1104707
 5:16 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

Supa, after more investigation, I think that might be correct also. But, this is not the real page rank of the page. The page is not listed in Google, if it is not in Google it doesn't have links and shouldn't have a pageRank. I thought maybe it was showing the new index. I don't think it makes much sense for Google to do this especially since the true pageRank of the subpage may be totally different than the arbitrary one the toolbar is displaying. Well I guess I will see if it changes when we have the reindex.

Chris_R




msg:1104708
 5:27 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

I was writing mine, while you posted your Supa. That is a possibility - I have written Google and will see what they say. It seems like an arbitrary way to do things. Based on the up button, Google does seem to realize that the page is related to the main domain.

It is not assigning the same PR, which would lend some credence to your theory - as I think if it was a bug that the PR would be the same.

I hope this is not the case, because the ToolBar is a great indicator as to whether a page is in Google. All you have to do is glance at the ToolBar and if it has any PR - it is in Google. If your theory is correct, then this would no longer be the case.

This happened just a couple days ago. I do not understand why Google would do this, but your theory seems to be pretty good. I hope it is wrong, as this will only add confusion about PageRank. What good is a PageRank if no one can find your page?

supa




msg:1104709
 10:48 pm on Jun 21, 2001 (gmt 0)

I am not happy with this "new" PR measurement also as well as the algo change accured in a recent update, but who cares about my happines anyways? :))

Time will show..

2_much




msg:1104710
 12:51 am on Jun 22, 2001 (gmt 0)

Conspiracy Theory - maybe we were getting a bit too close to their algo and they found out and wanted to confuse us??? Or maybe I've been watching too many movies :)

Bentler




msg:1104711
 12:53 am on Jun 22, 2001 (gmt 0)

I just noticed that the the toolbar PageRank differs for my organization's home page depending on which computer it's accessed from. One system says it's an 8, the other says it's a 7. Makes me wonder if there's some user profiling going on to match individual users with sites they're likely to find more useful? Any other ideas to explain this behavior?

supa




msg:1104712
 6:05 am on Jun 22, 2001 (gmt 0)

Bentler is the resolution on the monitors (as well as width) is the same?

Bentler




msg:1104713
 1:50 pm on Jun 22, 2001 (gmt 0)

Yes, the resolutions are the same both computers run through the same monitor. The PR bars are definitely different sizes though. I was thinking it could be that the PR (which recently got bumped down) isn't refreshing on one of the computers for whatever reason. Probably a better explanation than profiling-- I don't think Google would risk such a thing with so many privacy advocates willing to stir it up.

Everyman




msg:1104714
 3:36 pm on Jun 22, 2001 (gmt 0)

Delete the browser cache on each computer and try it again.

Then delete the browser cache on each computer and also the cookies on each computer and try again.

You get a 37-year Google cookie when the "phone home" PageRank feature on the toolbar is active, if you don't already have a Google cookie.

If you delete your cookies and cache, everything should be equal on the two computers, assuming that each appears to be coming from the same IP number from Google's perspective. If the IP is even slightly different, they might be load balancing by steering each to a different index -- the old one and the new one, in this case, since they're currently between indexes.

If the cookies are gone, the cache is gone, the IP numbers are the same, and the two PR values are still different -- then I don't know what's going on.

Brett_Tabke




msg:1104715
 7:21 pm on Jun 22, 2001 (gmt 0)

>Other people have noticed this as well.
>This has never happened before to me.

It's worked that way since day one of the toolbar. NFFC sent me a frantic message that the moderators forum had page rank within 10mins of installing the thing on the first day it was released. It confirms that PageRank is a site wide figure. There are ways to use that to your advantange. If you'd feed links from external sites to the page. Then make sure Google indexed the links, and then not allow Google to index it (404), it would retain the sites pr value. That was fine until Google quit doing the "this page hasn't been indexed" thing. You'll also notice, they quit doing most of the "it only appears in links pointing to this page" thing.

The toolbar works perfectly and it appears this is an awakening about pr for many people. I thought it was widely known that pr was for the most part, a domain wide number.

NFFC




msg:1104716
 9:30 am on Jun 23, 2001 (gmt 0)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one boss, I think that PageRank is very specific to individual pages. The only way that a page can have PageRank is if another page that has Pageank links too it, it doesn't matter weather it is from an external domain or not.

Whatever is going off with the Google Toolbar at present the PageRank numbers some people are seeing for brand new pages are just bits of green, it is not a measure of the pages PageRank. I personally think the toolbar is simply broke, otherwise every new page from sites listed in Google would show PageRank and this is not the case.
[dir.yahoo.com...]

bobriggs




msg:1104717
 3:31 pm on Jun 23, 2001 (gmt 0)

Here is what I'm seeing, especially after now seeing the new www2 update. Maybe this can shed some more light (or perhaps make it more confusing).

I have a brand new site that was indexed by google from 5-25 thru 5-30 (about 65 pages). There are three types of pages now on that site that have NO external links pointing to them (index page is in ODP)

1. 2 internal site links -page is in www2
2. 1 internal site link -page is also in www2
3. not in www2 at all (can have 1 or 2 internal site links)

Case 1 gives a page rank of 2
Case 2 AND 3 have a page rank of 1

So the logical conclusion (at least for the simplest case, here) is that there is some inheritance (case 3) AND there is a case for the number of internal site links (case 1 and 2 differences)

Chris_R




msg:1104718
 3:39 pm on Jun 23, 2001 (gmt 0)

The PR is related to the Pages pointing to you and NOTHING else. These can be internal or external pages - it does not matter.

If there are no pages pointing to you (not all will show up in Google), this is a bug in the toolbar. What good is have PageRank X if Google does not have your page and can not show it in results.

Others have noticed that pages are showing up with PageRanks that are not possible for Google to know about. There are two theories on this right now:

1) It is a bug. (It did not use to happen this way - this just started happening in the last few days)
2) Google is guessing at PR until it does its next update.

bobriggs




msg:1104719
 3:58 pm on Jun 23, 2001 (gmt 0)

I just created a directory on the site called test, then uploaded a blank page called test.html to it, loaded it with the toolbar on and it got a page rank of 1.

I can load a /cgi-bin/ perl script on that site and get a page rank of 0, so the guess theory sounds better than the inheritance right now.

Chris_R




msg:1104720
 4:12 pm on Jun 23, 2001 (gmt 0)

Well it is sort of guessing based on the inheritence - so both are kinda correct, but if your page is not in Google it is useless. This is why I do not like this new feature:

1) It is inaccurate
2) You can not tell by glancing at the toolbar if a page is in Google. This was one of its best features.

Hopefully it is a bug and they will fix it, or at least give users the ability to turn the "guessing feature" off. If that is what it is.

Everyman




msg:1104721
 4:46 pm on Jun 23, 2001 (gmt 0)

I have to say it again and risk another bad-boy sticky from Brett; sorry if I sound like a broken record.

The purpose of the PR toy on the toolbar is NOT to give anyone an accurate picture of the PageRank of that page.

The purpose of the PR toy on the toolbar is simply to justify the fact that your browser phones home to Google with your link data and your unique Google cookie ID.

While Google is building the world's best marketing database, they must be getting a kick out us as we count pixels.

Folks used to wonder how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. Now they count how many logarithmic multiples are implied by whether the pixels in a tiny section of the screen are green or gray.

alaska




msg:1104722
 10:19 am on Jun 26, 2001 (gmt 0)

Hello to everybody out there,
Is there any way to get the PR of pages without using the toolbar? I mean, is there any way to see the the PR embedded into the page instead of the Toolbar, or, for example, a Google search view that displays the PR alongside with any entry of the result page?
Thank you in advance.

starec




msg:1104723
 11:27 am on Jun 26, 2001 (gmt 0)

Yes, there is a special "debug" mode allowing to see pagerank for each search result (it is mentioned in one of the Google research papers). Here the good news ends because nobody outside of Google (that I am aware of) knows how to invoke the debug mode... So we have to stay with the toolbar graphics and manual translation of the PR into approximate numbers.

highman




msg:1104724
 11:52 am on Jun 26, 2001 (gmt 0)

For PageRank read SiteRank, the reason all other pages below your root register on the green scale is because they are part of the domain, their ranking will be lower because they are not as important as the root page.

You only need the index page of a site to be listed in google for all pages below this to inherit the ranking (just slightly less) exception being url's with ?

Mike

chadlerh




msg:1104725
 5:48 pm on Jun 28, 2001 (gmt 0)

I still don't think putting up a page on a domain will automatically give it page rank. The toolbar lies! You have to have links to that page for it to have PageRank. It lies again and again.

enotalone




msg:1104726
 5:57 pm on Jun 28, 2001 (gmt 0)

Yes, puting a page on a domain that has a good rank gives the new page ranking. trust me. I have created some static pages and uploaded them and they have ranking of 4 though it is only hours they are online and have never been indexed by google, listed in dmoz etc.

vis




msg:1104727
 9:15 am on Jun 29, 2001 (gmt 0)

Put a new page up with no links to or from anywhere and it has a page rank. It also has the directory category of the home-page.

This is an error, notice that no other pages carry the directory listing other than the one the directory points to.

I don't think we need to read anything into this other than an error in google's toolbar.

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