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What was the intention of showing PR in toolbar?
changed the socioeconomics of the web
flex55




msg:1104368
 5:53 pm on May 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

Does anyone know what was the original official reason from google for adding the ability to know the PR of a page?

I mean, it only encourages linking to high pr sites, kind of making the gaps between the "socioeconomic" layers of the web just wider (ie, you only want to reciprocate with high pr pages, and since the toolbar lets you know who is the "rich" and who is the "poor", it'll only help the riches get richer).

 

chiyo




msg:1104369
 6:00 pm on May 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

dont't quote me, but I think the idea was to provide users with another bit of information about the "quality" (in this case "site reputation of citation quality/frequency) of the site so they can better assess how seriously to take it and invest more time in looking at it.

Of course webmasters use it for other reasons.

>>changed the socioeconomics of the web<<

no it didnt. only amongst areas on the web characterised by a very strong google free index promotion strategy.

>>it'll only help the riches get richer<<

Welcome to the real world.

steveb




msg:1104370
 11:23 pm on May 24, 2003 (gmt 0)

"I mean, it only encourages linking to high pr sites"

99% of the users couldn't care less about any issues relating to that.

It's not some webmaster tool. It gives users a bit of helpful information. Users don't sit around thinking about webmaster link exchanges.

Digimon




msg:1104371
 1:14 am on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

And, in adittion, the web is plenty full of sites not owned by rich people (at least they don't look like) with a high PR.
And, like the folks have said, toolbar was not designed as a webmaster tool

ThornySEO




msg:1104372
 4:53 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

Take my advice, if you are using PR to determine your linking options then you are missing the point of linking. Focus on high qulaity sites, regardless of PR, that are in some way complimentary to your own. If the sites are high in quality in your own opinion, then, if they aren't already getting good PR, eventually engines like Google will likely see them and evaluate them the same way, once they straighten out their tech/programming probs... It's important to not let current technologies overly dictate your efforts. Obviously they are important but so is having an intelligent foundation for your approach. PR is still working itself out so stick to a good game plan.

Brad




msg:1104373
 5:05 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

It was put there to get webmasters/SEO's addicted to it.

gopi




msg:1104374
 8:50 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

It has no real benefits to the average user ...some here may argue the user will use it for checking the quality of a site ... but an average surfer dont care what is a site's PR ( its even a question wheather he knows what a PR in the first place!)

The only benefit (if any) google got by it is that it helped to spread the PR buzz in the media . Whenever a article is written about google they dont fail to put a line or two about PageRank Technology

IMHO , the toolbar PR display created more problems than any benefits for Google or its users or the web as a whole

heini




msg:1104375
 8:57 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

- Ego feeding.
PageRank: Bringing Order to the Web

- Branding.
PageRank performs an objective measurement of the importance of web pages...

Chris_R




msg:1104376
 9:01 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

The only benefit if any google got by it is that it helped to spread the PR buzz in the media

I agree - when google first came out - the PR was actually next to each listing in the SERPs. This helped reporters and others see hopw google worked.

At the time - having a single number related to an individual pages POPULARITY and NOT THE QUERY was revolutionary. I had a hard time originally grasping the concept - although now it seems second nature.

At the time - ALL search engines SUCKED big time except for google. Google was so far above them with this simple technique that along with the PageRank explanation - it helped those with a technical bent understand google and pass the word onto others.

Oddly enough PageRank is NOT as important as it used to be - except now - more people are paying attention to it. PageRank peaked around the first half of 2002 and back then - people were still heavily confusing it with link popularity and the RANKING of pages.

steveb




msg:1104377
 9:27 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

"the toolbar PR display created more problems than any benefits"

I could sit here till doomsday and not be able to come up with any logic behind this statement. The PR display doesn't create any problems at all. If the display wasn't there, or in the directory, people would still try to link to other high PR sites by looking at the serps. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." The toolbar PR display only has positives. Some people just hate the concept of PR. As a user (and a webmaster) the toolbar and directory PR offer very useful information that makes the use of my Internet time more efficient.

gopi




msg:1104378
 9:58 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

>> If the display wasn't there, or in the directory, people would still try to link to other high PR sites by looking at the serps

Steveb , do you sincerly believe that PR based linking and PR sale will still be there if google stop displaying the PR in toolbar/directory?

>> Some people just hate the concept of PR

I love the technology but what i fear is its effectiveness is getting reduced by publically displaying a site's PR .

Google PageRank technology assumes all sites link based on how its judge others content but since displaying PR influences linking that ideal environment that Google's original theory assumed is disappearing slowly ... This damage can be atleast minimized by stoping PR display

Its kind of the physics theory i learned in school that "you cannot measure something without altering it "

gingerbreadman




msg:1104379
 10:07 pm on May 28, 2003 (gmt 0)

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some hire PR officers.

For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over PR, for Nature cannot be fooled.

All the President is, is a glorified PR man who spends his time flattering, kissing and kicking people to get them to do what they are supposed to do anyway.

Everything you do or say is PR.

PR in toolbar the question really has to be...who uses it?

steveb




msg:1104380
 11:02 am on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

"Steveb , do you sincerly believe that PR based linking and PR sale will still be there if google stop displaying the PR in toolbar/directory?"

Um, yeah, obviously. To think otherwise is pretty silly, IMO.

As long as the concept of PR exists, people will try and determine its value, either efficiently or inefficiently. The toolbar is irrelevant to that obviously. The toolbar just eliminates some of the guessing, which is hardly important.

trillianjedi




msg:1104381
 12:17 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Heini hit the nail on the head when mentioning "branding".

If you were google, and felt that you had the best algorithm that had the ability to rank pages without human intervention, wouldn't you want to show it off?

TJ

Brett_Tabke




msg:1104382
 12:25 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

The only benefit if any google got by it is that it helped to spread the PR buzz in the media

It got people to download the toolbar, which in turn helps Google with the most important heap of data they have - toolbar data. Click data is more important long term than page rank.

While PR counts link "votes" that can be manipulated, the toolbar counts real world live-real-time-votes (eg: clicks). Combined, they are the future bookends of Google search results.

gopi




msg:1104383
 12:30 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)


It got people to download the toolbar, which in turn helps Google with the most important heap of data they have - toolbar data

I dont have any proof , but brett i have a feeling that majority of the people who downloaded the toolbar because of the PR Display will be webmasters/seos ...if that is the case then that click data is pretty much useless ( does not reflect real world web surfing pattern!)

But as i said its only a guess and Google only knows the truth!

Brett_Tabke




msg:1104384
 12:48 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

IT people - including webmasters - make up less than one quarter of one percent of the web audience. Probably less than a quarter million people involved front lines in IT in the states. Rumor has it, the toolbar is running on 10million machines. That in turn means less than 2% of the toolbars are on IT peoples boxes. eg: we aren't statistically significant.

aravindgp




msg:1104385
 1:14 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

What Brett and Gopi say both make sense to me?

Brett >>the toolbar counts real world live-real-time-votes
(eg: clicks).
Yes it does count in the long run, combined with PR and vote Count it further helps in E-Branding!

Gopi>> I have a feeling that majority of the people who downloaded the toolbar because of the PR Display will be webmasters/seos.

For me Majority users of ToolBar presently are Webmasters but when I told my marketing manager that he can use ToolBar as means to talk to sites.He not only used it but spread the word arround thus almost everyone in the company is using the toolbar.

Eventually It did help the company boost the Conversion factor.

Now hypothetically assume that all the webmasters in the world tell their marketing managers about Google Toolbar ,the quality of the e-commerce goes high becoz of this factor alone.

Additionally no more any tom dick and harry putup site and make money!, you need to have quality ,links and time in getting links indexed and then your site has a pagerank.No more I can be fooled by the glossy easthetically pleasing looking site.

Hence it drives very close to real world scenario of brand name.

Now why would lot of people go and buy the same products becoz they have "brand name".How would you delevope E-branding!, Toolbar in simple terms is a good measure for e-branding!.

Atleast in any industry I know (thanks to toolbar) that if a site has 8 or 9 pagerank and it belongs to certain category and not general informational site, then I am fairly right in concluding that it's a good branded site in that industry.

From a user point of view it's one more option at hand when making a purchase, a deal or deciding about what is said in the site.

For example: when you try any form of Art their's a fair chance of you finding a site with high page rank of 8 in the top 10.This site is having branding for me!I will take this site far more seriously then anyother site in the listing.So by going to this and voting after getting satisfied in real live time, it help's in creating E-Branding! for this particular site.

Thus making the site eventually the best Site in the industry!.

Aravind

PS:For me Google Toolbar is that tool which bridges gap between
E-Commerce and Commerece.

gopi




msg:1104386
 2:24 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)


IT people - including webmasters - make up less than one quarter of one percent of the web audience. Probably less than a quarter million people involved front lines in IT in the states. Rumor has it, the toolbar is running on 10million machines. That in turn means less than 2% of the toolbars are on IT peoples boxes

Brett , I think you misunderstood me - I didnt say that majority of toolbar users are webmasters . I said that the majority of the users who downloaded the toolbar ATTRACTED BY THE PR DISPLAY are webmasters!

The non-webmaster toolbar users were motivated purely by the ease of search and would have anyway downloaded the toolbar even if it didnt had the PR display .

atadams




msg:1104387
 2:56 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

IMO, the collection of toolbar data is a very significant reason why Google hasn't taking the PR display out of the toolbar - long after it has become obvious that showing PR has become detrimental to the "a link is a vote" philosophy that is the foundation of PR.

chiyo




msg:1104388
 4:52 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Brett wrote: >>IT people - including webmasters - make up less than one quarter of one percent of the web audience. Probably less than a quarter million people involved front lines in IT in the states. Rumor has it, the toolbar is running on 10 million machines. That in turn means less than 2% of the toolbars are on IT peoples boxes. eg: we aren't statistically significant.<<

Well that logic works if the demographics of those who download and use the Google toolbar is the same as the web audience as a whole, no matter how large the download or user base. Google's toolbar may well be more representative of the web browsing population than say Alexa, but it's still a major assumption to make. eg.

The only safe thing to say about any conclusions that Google may make on data from toolbar users, is that it applies to ...well... toolbar users.

It cant be generalised to joe surfer, or other web-user groups, or anybody who uses google without a toolbar, until it can be proved that they are one the same.

Its just a guess, but I think you need some above-average interest in the web, not using a mac or non-IE browser, and be using a personal data station (e.g. not shared ones say at work and cybercafes, schools, etc) and be one who really likes details to download it, and more to the point, continue to use it.

Whoopster




msg:1104389
 7:48 pm on May 29, 2003 (gmt 0)

Its very simple really.

Google played a joke on the press....PR is for Public Relations.

All the hype around PR (Page Rank) has been for Public Relations primarily.

Look at the Dance for example, another Public Relations super success.

Google has a think tank that works like a well oiled machine. Very few of their big moves are not well planned, and well co-ordinated to create a buzz and euphoric popularity.

And they time a new item every year or so.
First PR, then The Dance.
The latest is 'everflux'

-Adrian

[edited by: heini at 8:35 pm (utc) on May 29, 2003]
[edit reason] removed urls per TOS / thanks! [/edit]

theincrediblehelp




msg:1104390
 9:00 pm on May 30, 2003 (gmt 0)

"it only encourages linking to high pr sites"

Flex55,

Didnt you try to link to other sites before the toolbar? There should be no difference in your linking strategies before or after the toolbar came out.

Jaan

ThornySEO




msg:1104391
 6:04 pm on Jun 1, 2003 (gmt 0)

True, except for the simple fact that it can be useful in finding quality sites.

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