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This 34 message thread spans 2 pages: 34 ( [1] 2 > >     
What is a "competitive keyword"?
How to determine a competitive keyword or competitive phrase?
troels nybo nielsen




msg:268045
 2:17 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Now and again I see people using the expression "a competitive keyword". And they use it as if they are completely sure about its meening. Personally I must admit being rather confused and not certain at all.

Is a competitive word simply a word that is used a lot? How many pages should then use that word before it is considered to be a competitive keyword?

And what about all those word that are certainly used a lot, but perhaps are not very often used in an attempt to get a good position on them in the SERPs? Are they competitive?

And what about words from other languages than English? I doubt that _any_ word in a "small" language like my own (Danish) is to be found on so many webpages that webmasters with English websites would consider it to be "competitive".

Any opinions?

Troels

 

rcjordan




msg:268046
 2:25 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

To me, everything is related to the serps. I consider a word or phrase moderately competive when it has 350,000 returns on google or alltheweb. When it begins to approach the 1 million return mark, then it's getting very competitive. This is a personal gauge, of course. Toolman doesn't think anything under a million is competitive.

robertito62




msg:268047
 2:33 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I feel bad.
I have been optimizing pages for keywords searched in the 20,000 a day. I must be at the low end of the non-competing realm. Didn't know there were words of 1,000,000.

Mike_Mackin




msg:268048
 2:34 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I agree with rc

I also check Overture.
If the top ten bidders for a KW are over $5. I consider it "competitive"

troels nybo nielsen




msg:268049
 2:39 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Just checked the word "the" which is a filterword in English. (But not in Danish. It means "tea".) 3+ billions. But I doubt that more than very few pages actively are competing for positions on it.

DaveN




msg:268050
 2:46 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I always look at "competitive keywords" only slightly different to "common Keywords"

as an example we have a client which want two particular key-terms both have over 2 million SERP's

one key-term I class as common maybe three or four players we rank 2,3 and 6(straight in last update)

the other key-term ( competitive) as slightly less results in the SERP's but 10+ players and we rank 16. (up from 500+ from last update)

I see it the main difference between competitive and non-competitive are the players.

DaveN

vitaplease




msg:268051
 2:46 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

For search phrases, check the number on the "exact phrase".

If then you reach above 350.000 or so, it is getting competitive.

robertito62




msg:268052
 2:48 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

The definition of "competitive keywords" might depend largely on each industry.

At 50 cents a click, I would think twice on bidding in overture for keywords related to most of my adult sites...
Instead of thinking that it must be a competitive kword, I would think someone has no clear understanding of ROI.

Which words are worth $5 a click that would lead to substantial gains? beats me.

robertito62




msg:268053
 2:51 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

troels_...

"...Just checked the word "the" which is a filterword in English. (But not in Danish. It means "tea".) 3+ billions. But I doubt that more than very few pages actively are competing for positions on it..."

where do you look? Overture filters 'the'

troels nybo nielsen




msg:268054
 2:53 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

robertito

I googled it. 3 billion _pages_. (Not searches!)

Mike_Mackin




msg:268055
 2:58 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

ASBESTOS Litigation

***mesothelioma***
Top 3 bidders are at $50.00

lazerzubb




msg:268056
 3:03 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

350.000 - 1 million = Semi competitive
1Million - 3 Million = Competitive
3 Million - 25 Million = Very competitive

I don't do keywords above 25 Million, so i don't know what to call that.

troels nybo nielsen




msg:268057
 3:16 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I am just a na´ve amateur so my job in this context is to ask na´ve questions: Is a keyword's competitivenes _only_ a matter of how many searches?

lazerzubb




msg:268058
 3:19 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

When i look for keywords, i usually view the 10 first results for the keyword, if the top 3 is PageRank 9 i give up, if the top 3 is PageRank 8, i sit down a think a bit, if top 1 is PageRank 8 no problem i go off building pages.

But there is keywords with millions of results returned which doesn't give you a lot of searches, i have one for example, around 4 million results returned, and i am top 4, i get about 25 visitors per day from that keyword.

sem4u




msg:268059
 3:57 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I have a Google #1 for a keyphrase with 2,170,000 competing pages!

Quinn




msg:268060
 4:27 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

troels_nybo_nielsen ,

I am just a na´ve amateur so my job in this context is to ask na´ve questions: Is a keyword's competitivenes _only_ a matter of how many searches?

Like DaveN, I think a large part of competitiveness is the skill against those with which you are competing.

I would say it's something like

Competitors + Number of pages returned + Number of people searching.

DaveN




msg:268061
 4:55 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

troels_nybo_nielsen,

image that you get wind on this board that the next big thing on the net is "golden crispy widgets" better than any other widget out there

so you do your research and there only 3,000 results for that key-term then CJ start offering $1 per click through, next update you notice that there's now 4000, and the top 20 - 30 are all seo affiliate sites then toolman dumps a few thousand pages into the mix and you now have a slightly competitive keyword phrase ;)

DaveN

caine




msg:268062
 5:02 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'm a little lucky,

becuase of the industrial sector.

their's no such thing as a one term search word, for kw's in my area, far too technical. Of the words that make up the terms they range from 200k to 10mill, but start combining them, and all of a sudden i am looking at 5k to 100k, which is relatively non-compeitive, though its becuase the players (some of the biggest multinationals on the planet) that are the massive terms, don't care as its a tiny aspect of their business.

<add> one of the kw's is 73.4 mill - did'nt know - though i am only interesting in portions of it</add>

DrCool




msg:268063
 5:54 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Something else to look for as far as competiveness is how "optimized" the keywords are. If you take a look at the first 10-15 sites listed under any particular keyword, look at back links, look at the page content, etc. you should be able to get a good idea if a lot of other people who know what they are doing are targeting those keywords.

jackofalltrades




msg:268064
 6:03 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I agree with DrCool

I think that keywords can be more competitive by industry and sector as well.

Some industries are more prone to optimisation (ie more frequently targetted by SEOs).

Put it this way - 2 phrases "chocolate muffins" and "real estate" - both have 300k results and equal numbers of user searching for the terms. Which would you rather take on as a client?

In the same respect, certain popular locations (large cities) will have more optimised sites in their SERPs than other locations.

In this respect, competitivness is relative not just to the quantity of the competition, but to the quality as well.

My2c...

JOAT

brotherhood of LAN




msg:268065
 10:28 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

>The definition of "competitive keywords" might depend largely on each industry.

Definetely. Most people here that are saying a million is "very competitive" are more likely to be in competitive areas ;)

Its' not too hard to get top 10 for a G result of 8 million pages, in a NON-competitive field :)

robertito62




msg:268066
 11:27 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Some people here look at pages returned as some kind of measure...

I only look at how many searches are performed for such and such KWs to determine if there is demand for them, disregarding the offer (pages returned).

Why is it important to look at pages returned? The number will not reveal how difficult would be to penetrate SERPs, perhaps analyzing top 10 results will.

Quinn




msg:268067
 11:32 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I couldn't agree with you more robertito62. I don't think it's useful as any rule of thumb.

Quinn




msg:268068
 11:33 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I just had a thought which may warrant retracting that statement. If the search term is a brand name, it may be reasonable consideration in determining the competitiveness of the page.

brotherhood of LAN




msg:268069
 11:56 pm on Dec 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Scraping the barrel with some here maybe, hopefully have a good idea after looking at least 10 of these :)

1.Overture Term Suggestion Tool
2.Term suggestion tools like wordtracker
3.PPC cost of keyword
4.Search results returned on FAST/Google
5.Pagerank/Link pop of the top sites for the keyword on Google
6.Number of sites listed in DMOZ for relevant category / how many subcategories
7.High % of penalised sites? :)
8.Large Corps. competing for keyword (and how much $ they could use to re-arrange the ranks)
9.Appears in Altavita Prisma/Related "theme" engines
10.Google has a redirect for mis-spellings of the word? :) i.e. they ad-a-word
11.Commodity or luxury? Some commodities must be non-stop competitive, luxuries less competitive but more expensive to promote? dunno
12.Can you spot affiliate sites littered about the place? Could be competitive
13.High number of ads on adwords/PPC listings

robertito62




msg:268070
 12:29 am on Dec 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

BOL, thanks for the list. Seriously!

I'll stick it to my desktop and check it out every time I am ready for some battle :)

figment88




msg:268071
 4:45 pm on Dec 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

So many posts and nobody's listed my favorite estimate of competitiveness - the number of bidders on overture.

I use this along with the maximum bid to guage competitveness (as someone else mentioned, though, a lot of bidders don't understand ROI).

I stopped using Google SERP results when a site of mine less than two months old ranked number one for keyword1 keyword2 that returned 1.7+ million results. Both keywords are short (3 and 5 letters), but only myself and the number 2 site optimize for them next to each other.

robertito62




msg:268072
 9:09 pm on Dec 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

"...but only myself and the number 2 site optimize for them next to each other..."

I hope it remains like this.

Anyone afraid of the time when optimization becomes walmartization?

Brett_Tabke




msg:268073
 1:18 pm on Dec 30, 2002 (gmt 0)

Watched this thread develop and I tried to come up with a "competitive formula". I've not done that, but there is a recipe - the only question is how to mix:

Ingredients:
- Number of results returned on Fast and Google.
- Number of searches done on Overture per month.
- Average PageRank of top 10 result pages.
- Average cost of top 10 listing on Overture.
- Number of bidders on the kw on Overture.
- Number of Fortune 500 companies returned in top 10.
- Number of top 10 listings that are via paid inclusion on Ink.

Season to taste:
- Number of pages in top 100, that you would consider "spammy" ;-)

There has to be a way to mathematically express that.

edit_g




msg:268074
 1:23 pm on Dec 30, 2002 (gmt 0)

[google.com...]

306,000 pages returned... Guess which is first? ;)

This 34 message thread spans 2 pages: 34 ( [1] 2 > >
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