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This 42 message thread spans 2 pages: 42 ( [1] 2 > >     
Salesman Just called me - and i was impressed
moved #3 to #1 before my eyes
Andrew Thomas




msg:255515
 1:15 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Just had a sales man phone me up from a company called world search in th UK, and I followed his instructions. I went to atlavista and typed in the keyword he said, the site he was talking about was at position 3, he then said to refresh my screen and it jumped to position 1. He could move it to any position I required.

He said they had 7 major SE on board, and were in talks with Google.

Hows do they do this? and do all the major SE companies do this? Im confused, whether to go with them

Andy

 

Nick_W




msg:255516
 1:21 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Sounds well fishy to me. Look forward to some opinions rather than my naff comment ;)

Nick

Dino_M




msg:255517
 1:32 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Fishy! yep like a john west factory.
Andrew check your sticky pls!

TallTroll




msg:255518
 1:45 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Looks like they are Overture advertisers then. Likely the salesman had an OV bid management panel open, started the bid off at a #3 position, then upped it while you were talking to him to score the #1.

You refreshed and saw that (note that the first 3 AV results on many keyphrases are OV supplied. As you were at an engine of his choosing, using keywords of his choosing, you were totally within his controlled environment. Next time, get him to do it for some engine/phrase combos YOU choose)

I have a sales background, does it show yet? ;)

Overture traffic can be an excellent source of qualified leads, but if you want to go that path, you will retain more flexibility by learning to manage it all yourself, IMO

Andrew Thomas




msg:255519
 2:00 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

OK Dino_M sent you a sticky.

Thanks for the comments

Chris_R




msg:255520
 2:05 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Boy - I love these type of companies - This slight of hand stuff makes the three card monte people look honest by comparison.

Napoleon




msg:255521
 2:12 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Whilst there are people to fall for it, there will always be those low enough to exploit them.

Andrew Thomas




msg:255522
 2:14 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Sounds as if made the right choice of asking you guys first, as he was a good sales man, and i must admit if i didnt belong to this forum i probably would have jumped in with both feet.

Mind you, there website looks quite professional. :)

agerhart




msg:255523
 2:17 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>>there website looks quite professional.

Which is probably a large part of the deception and helps them to make sales.

TallTroll




msg:255524
 2:22 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Yeah, a company who are keeping busy often have sites that are way out of date/designed in '99, 'cos they are busy doing actual WORK, y'know, not chasing prospects....

Chris_R




msg:255525
 2:27 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

I remember one of my accountants calling me from some scma he got talking about how the would promote his site - and you didn't even need to go to a search engine.

I was confused and he conferenced me in with the guy.

It was a reseller for real names making all sorts of promises and he obviously knew nothing about the web - he wanted hundred more than we could have gotten by going to real names directly.

I kept asking him why we should spend hundreds more with him than going with real names directly and he kept evading the question. Finally he started bringing up the thousands of search engines they would be submitting to. I said name 10 of them. He couldn't of course "well they are always changing".

Anyone that charges people for "submitting to search engines" is most likely a con artist.

Harley_m




msg:255526
 2:39 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

i have to disagree...i have evidence that all the companies that submit to over 800,000 search engines are lovely people providing a solid, good value service...

so remember - the more they submit to - the better they are!

lol

Dino_M




msg:255527
 2:59 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Looks like they are Overture advertisers then. Likely the salesman had an OV bid management panel open, started the bid off at a #3 position, then upped it while you were talking to him to score the #1.

Looks like that's right on the money.

I can be number 1 for any term I like using overture, just have to have enough money, why should I pay these guys to do it for me?

Andrew Thomas




msg:255528
 3:04 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

OK, I look forward to when he calls me back to try and get a sale :)

tbear




msg:255529
 4:32 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

He he, why not put a site of yours there and when he tells you to refresh, up the ante yourself and knock him back to 3. Then offer Him Your services....... LOL
Is that evil? ;)

makemetop




msg:255530
 4:35 pm on Oct 23, 2002 (gmt 0)

Interestingly (and slightly off topic), I received a call today from a tele-marketing company who was trying to sell their services to people they regarded as the leading SEOs in the UK. When I said I really didn't need them, we have plenty of enquiries from our current online activities and referrals - they said that this appeared to be the same case with everyone they had contacted so-far. I think there is a message in that!

mat_bastian




msg:255531
 5:23 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>>Anyone that charges people for "submitting to search engines" is most likely a con artist.<<<

That's an unfair comment.... No way am I gonna submit for my clients for free. When I hand submit to all major engines, write thier dmoz description, enter bids for 20+ keywords to overture and adwords select, sprinks , and kanoodle as well as titles and descriptions... That's 25 percent of my business. Not a chance in heck am I giving away 25% of my time... 25% of my income just to be a nice guy who isn't crooked. If it takes of my time it takes of my money. I'll charge and that ain't crooked thank you.

Hunter




msg:255532
 5:38 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hey mat_bastian, welcome aboard WebmasterWorld. I believe Chris_R was not referring to management of submissions and PPC campaigns (what you seem to be doing), but rather to simple automated submissions to thousands of small se's and directories that really offer no value to clients.

Tor




msg:255533
 9:43 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Great suggestion! I`d love to hear about his reaction Andy ;)

Tor




msg:255534
 9:46 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

He he, why not put a site of yours there and when he tells you to refresh, up the ante yourself and knock him back to 3. Then offer Him Your services....... LOL

Ups... I was responding to tbear`s suggestion

rencke




msg:255535
 11:07 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Andrew Thomas is a preferred member with 230+ posts under his belt. He didn't see through this right away and neither did I. But he had enough sense to smell something and asked the question here at WebmasterWorld. Where, of course, the scheme was quickly exposed.

But I just wonder how many deals this salesman closes in a day. 3, 4, 5? And how much does he charge? 100% markup on Overture bids? More? Running hundreds of customers this way, could be the ultimate get-rich-quick plan for anyone not overly troubled by ethics.

Black Knight




msg:255536
 11:10 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

I can be number 1 for any term I like using overture, just have to have enough money, why should I pay these guys to do it for me?

Because (in this case), until their salesman showed you the effect, you didn't know it could be so? :)

>>>there website looks quite professional.

Which is probably a large part of the deception and helps them to make sales.

Maybe I missed the deception. From what I gather, the salesman made no false claims, he simply showed what he could dofor the prospective customer in a real-life example. He didn't say how it was done, which brought our topic starter, Andy, here to ask...

Hows do they do this? and do all the major SE companies do this? Im confused, whether to go with them

I'm not associated with the company (unless I am, since the company wasn't named, so I have no idea who they may be), but I spot a certain hypocracy here.

A salesman called and offered Andy a method of attaining high position (and exact position) in AV. He showed his claim.

You looked behind the curtain and de-mystified how it was done, and now act like you were cheated here, since it wasn't true magic. So what? No SEO is magic.

If this un-named company is to be slated for not de-mystifying how they work, then you have to also attack almost every SEO.

How many of you just give away all of the knowledge you have about how to optimise a page to every client you talk to on a telephone? Would you expect to be attacked and have hints that you are deceptive because you didn't tell the prospective client that it isn't magic, and that he could optimise his own pages?

Sheesh guys, this place is starting to sound like there's so little SEO work we need to attack all competitor reputations. :(

Dino_M




msg:255537
 11:38 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

I don't agree with you Black Knight this company smacks of bad ethics and this gives all SEO a poor name!

He said they had 7 major SE on board, and were in talks with Google.

They seem to be trying to make out they are working with the Seach engines and only they have this magic power. When a client finds out he could of done it for cheaper using overture he is going to be pissed. Plenty of companys offer PPC management and don't feel the need to dress it up like these jokers!

veritysystems




msg:255538
 11:43 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

NO! :)

TallTroll




msg:255539
 11:51 am on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

>> A salesman called and offered Andy a method of attaining high position (and exact position) in AV. He showed his claim.

>>You looked behind the curtain and de-mystified how it was done, and now act like you were cheated here, since it wasn't true magic. So what? No SEO is magic.

Sure, I agree that nothing (well, almost nothing) in SEO is magic, but what you ARE getting is the benefit of the knowledge and experience of an SEO professional, someone who has a real grasp of what SEs want, and how to give it to them.

Now, I think that PPC ought to be part of an integrated traffic plan for virtually any site.... what I sure as hell don't think is that PPC ought to be portrayed to potential clients as "pure" SEO.

What these people are doing is, in my opinion, trying to pass themselves and their service as something other than what they truly are.

I have plenty of respect for the guys who are seriously into PPC and bid management etc, but its a separate, albeit complementary, skillset.

Relating back to an earlier comment, we've all come across companies that charge for "search engine submission", which translated into reality often means no more than pumping the URLs through one or other of the various submission software products out there.

There are also companies, like mat_bastiens, who offer a highly value-added service, which is also "search engine submission", but actually worth the money. I see an direct analogy here

>> Sheesh guys, this place is starting to sound like there's so little SEO work we need to attack all competitor reputations.

Not at all. What I personally object to is that this company is bringing no unique knowledge, technique, or experience to their clients

>> How many of you just give away all of the knowledge you have about how to optimise a page to every client you talk to on a telephone?

Exactly my point. They don't have any unique skill, just an OV panel. There may well be some value in their services if they are good at bid management, IDing high traffic/low competition keywords etc, etc, but that isn't how they are choosing to portray themselves. They are presenting themselves as being able to place you, the client, in a top 3 position in a number of search engines.

What do they tell their clients if for some reason everyone dropped OV tomorrow? I know it's not likely, but that is where I see the deception as being. I know that SEO related results can be trashed in an update, but then the damage can be assessed, and new techniques can be found, and the positions recovered. That isn't the case here

>> that he could optimise his own pages

Sure, any of our clients COULD optimise their pages themselves. We do it better because we have the skills, the experience, and the contacts.

>> A salesman called and offered Andy a method of attaining high position (and exact position) in AV.

But it wasn't in AV's own results, was it? It was in the sponsored links they import from elsewhere. Yet Andy was clearly left with the impression that the salesman had a direct line into the AV d/base, and a staggering degree of control, which in a way, I suppose, he does, so long as AV/OV stay friends, which is utterly outside of the salesmans control. This isn't what he was implying though, nor did he apparently make any mention of it

I don't know, maybe I am being a bit harsh on them, but it just wouldn't sit right with me.

Chris_R




msg:255540
 12:09 pm on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>>Anyone that charges people for "submitting to search engines" is most likely a con artist.<<<

That's an unfair comment.... No way am I gonna submit for my clients for free. When I hand submit to all major engines, write thier dmoz description, enter bids for 20+ keywords to overture and adwords select, sprinks , and kanoodle as well as titles and descriptions... That's 25 percent of my business. Not a chance in heck am I giving away 25% of my time... 25% of my income just to be a nice guy who isn't crooked. If it takes of my time it takes of my money. I'll charge and that ain't crooked thank you.

mat_bastian,

hunter is pretty much correct - I said most LIKELY a con artist. There are three types here that I am mainly talking about:

1) People that do not know what they are doing.

MOST people fall into this category (80%+ is my guess).

Anyone that CHARGES for using an automatic submission program is either misinformed, misinforming their clients or a conartist.

There are a great deal of people that hold themselves out at SEOs who know almost NOTHING about search engines other than what you can get from search engines for dummies.

Anyone that charges to submit to google for instance - is misinformed. There are MANY MANY seos that do this. I am sorry, and I know this will offend people - but people should not be doing this as a business if they think submitting to google will help their customers (there are two exceptions to this - and they are very very rare).

Same with submitting to AV from a static ip (I don't even submit at all, but I could see making the case with them).

Sometimes these people actually do harm by using hidden text, tricky redirects, and stuff like that. I believe all is fair in love and SEO, but those techniques (as usually implemented) do NOT WORK. I don't care what people see their competitors using. My problem is not with using the technique, but for charging a business owner for a technique that doesn't work - and possibly getting them banned when their competitors whine and complain.

I have seen "SEOs" use redirects where the end result is a blank page is indexed by google with "untitled document" as the title.

These people do do work - and THINK they know what they are doing, but are using 1997 techniques in a 2002 world.

The vast majority of information on SEO is about meta tags. Give me a few meta tags and $27.00 and I might be able to get a #1 listing on overture for online casinos.

2) Blatent con artists - people like the one mentioned in this thread and the one I mentioned are con artists. They are misleading their customers ON PURPOSE in order to get more business.

3) People that do submissions as part of an overall strategy.

Submitting to overture, findwhat, sprinks, and whatnot - is not usually anytype of con - as you are paying for those listings. This will have a result - while submitting to most search engines is USELESS. Every engine you mentioned by name is fine. You pretty much have to submit to DMOZ, unless an editor likes and knows of your site already. People that know what they are doing can help with the descriptions and where to place it.

Presumably (and hopefully) you have met with your client and are mapping out a strategy.

You tell Mr Widget maker that you will do research on keywords related to his business and that will help with overall sales. You hopefully do this research and submit these phrases to companies and manage their bids.

There is nothing wrong with this. Unfortunately - the vast majority of people that the average webmaster runs across are not those type of SEOs. They are these auto submit things - and slimy companies.

I remember one company that had a fancy box you could enter your term into to see if they COULD place your term on the "18 MAJOR Search Engines" or whatever it was (The FAQ had a different #).

Of course, miraculously - no matter what term you entered - free, s**, music - you name it - they could guarantee you a top ten placement.

This is misleading - as by the search box - they were suggesting that they COULDN'T place some terms. They are either lying - or by looking at their "partners" - simply charging for affiliate listings.

Sorry if I ranted on, but if what you say is true - you are probably in the minority of SEOs - and I would excpect have run across some of the same things I am talking about.

SEO is nothing to be ashamed of
"SEO" is another story....

Black Knight




msg:255541
 12:10 pm on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the detailed reply, TallTroll. It does help explain exactly what sits uneasily for you.

I'm still going to challenge you a little though. :)

Not at all. What I personally object to is that this company is bringing no unique knowledge, technique, or experience to their clients

So, how many SEOs in the world (or even in this smaller macrocosm WebmasterWorld) truly bring unique knowledge, techniques and experiences to their clients, rather than the gleanings of others? Even here, most people learned almost everything about SEO from others, and therefore it is not unique.

Admittedly, here in WebmasterWorld there is a greater proportion of users who test theories for themselves, of people who experiment and discover. That's one of the greatest strengths of WebmasterWorld. However, are those people the majority of daily users? I don't think so.

Even those who make discoveries of their own, often make the same discoveries as others. This then is not unique knowledge, nor unique techniques.

The vast majority of SEO professionals simply sell the same techniques and knowledge as about 95% of all SEO other companies. I've never seen even one of them advertise (or even admit) this on their sales sites.

The double-standard sits more uneasily with me than the fact that yet another firm is selling SEO as if (to paraphrase Dino_M) "only they have this magic power."

I'd say that the vast majority of SEO companies are "trying to pass themselves and their service as something other than what they truly are". What they really are is 'run of the mill' and unoriginal but hiding it, and there I see an even closer direct analogy. :)

Andrew Thomas




msg:255542
 12:30 pm on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi,

I see the thread i started has brought in a few opinions :)

One thing i did pull him up on was :

I said "i was re-designing my work site as it currently uses framesets, and that to my knowledge most engines 'in particualr' google who is one of the leaders doesnt like frames and spiders may not crawl any further than the framset page."

He replied saying, "thats rubbish, most engines including google like framesets, as long as they are well designed, and that FLASH was more of a problem due to download times, also that Google was not one of the major engines, but they are currently in talks to get them on board"

He said the most popular engine was Atlavista, (which he showed the demo on)

Although i was at first fooled by his SE optimization, I didnt believe what he said about framesets and google and did disagree with him.

Another thing he told me, was that he was fairly new to this comapny, and that he had to see it to believe it (regarding the #3 to #1) when he went for his interview. (making out they had some bespoke software that put them high (or anywhere they want) in the SE.

this will probably give you more to discuss :)

and thanks for all the replies

Andy

makemetop




msg:255543
 1:41 pm on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

The company is actually named. Having looked at their site they appear to be an un-reconstructed RealNames reseller using similar techniques - they offer Overture listings as SEO with a clear intimation that they have a deal with the search engines, they offer sponsored listings on their own version of Google - instead of Adwords listings intimating that this will get loads of searches AND for their top deal you can buy their version of RealNames whereby you can pay exorbitant amounts of money to have people come directly to your web site provided potential surfers have downloaded their IE 'upgrade' and type your purchased keyword in the browser window.

All of these methods strike me as designed to trap the unwary and, I would agree, are likely to give their clients a poor opinion of our industry when they don't quite get the results they expect.

NeedScripts




msg:255544
 3:34 pm on Oct 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Q2 Do I need to upgrade Internet Explorer again?
Microsoft Internet Explorer V4 is the default browser for Windows 98 and above, so you probably won't need to upgrade.

I think the default browser was IE V 5.5. Are they saying the truth or just trying to get customers anyhow?

For some reason, I don't feel like trusting them.

This 42 message thread spans 2 pages: 42 ( [1] 2 > >
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