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General Search Engine Marketing Issues Forum

    
Is it Possible?
rankings in all search engines
zuko105




msg:242616
 12:31 am on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

When a page is submitted, crawled and linked, is it possible to get that page listed #1 for its keywords in:

MSN Search
Yahoo
Google

Just wanted to see what anyone thought.

Thanks.

 

victor




msg:242617
 12:40 am on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

The big boys certainly can -- a search for "Google" has www.google.com come up 1-1-1 on those engines.

Meanwhile, way down the pecking order, I got a 2-1-1 for those three engines.

Someone must be able to better that!

Mohamed_E




msg:242618
 1:08 am on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

On the search term (one word) that is closest and dearest to my heart (alas, few surfers have the good judgement to search on it) I come #1 on google, yahoo (dir), msn, aol and alltheweb. #4 on altavista. Add a geographic qualifier and I come in #1 on altavista (also on google, did not test the others).

What really matters, of course, is how well one does on the search terms surfers use most often. Here I observe great variation between engines.

Marcia




msg:242619
 3:30 am on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

With Yahoo, their directory listings come first, but the web pages are Google, so that part can be the same since it's from the same source.

For MSN, if there are no featured and LookSmart, it could be the same with Inktomi's listings coming first, but the first Ink listing could be pages down if a lot of LS listings come first.

JayC




msg:242620
 4:26 am on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

The big boys certainly can -- a search for "Google" has www.google.com come up 1-1-1 on those engines.

Hey, I don't have much trouble getting a #1 ranking for my company name either; does that make me a "big boy?" :)

As to the original question, are you talking about the same page getting the same #1 ranking for the same search query ("keywords")? I guess it'd be possible (taking into consideration Marcia's point about Yahoo's directory listings and MSN's paid placements) but generally Inktomi's results (what you'd find at MSN) are quite different from Google's... so it'd be a challenge for any competitive search term.

chris_f




msg:242621
 7:33 am on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

I don't work for a major SEO company. In fact, my SEO is really part time. However, although I may have problems with MSN I can still usually manage a #1 for all the major keywords of a site. It just takes time.

Marcia




msg:242622
 7:46 am on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

>generally Inktomi's results (what you'd find at MSN) are quite different from Google's... so it'd be a challenge for any competitive search term.

Good point, Jay. Basically, you can optimize a specific page for Inktomi, but for Google it's broader, across the whole site, though interior pages can do fine.

For something broad - say hot dogs - you can rank #1 for a site with both, but if you're #1 and there are 8 pages of LookSmart listings for hot dogs, the #1 Ink listing on the 9th page won't do much good. However, a page on "hot dog stands in Milwaukee" won't be buried because it won't have the competition to buck.

zuko105




msg:242623
 9:06 pm on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Cool, thanks everybody.

This is an awesome list with lots of activity.

I've been on a couple of groups before I got to this one, as SEO is a new subject to me, but am learning quickly, so bear with me everyone while the baby learns to walk....

I guess I could post the search keywords without revealing too much to potential competitors.

"somecitynamehere real estate"

I have the domain name is the company name is the site name, so I feel pretty confident that once either the Clickthrough popularity or the Link to popularity is built, then I can be #1 for Yahoo.

I won't be using the paid listings for MSN, just the usual overture $0.15 per click fee, and then once all that is set, then pay the spider submission fee for google ($40 last time I checked.)

Luckily some bigger company will link to my page, but make no mistakes here, this is for a small business (2 people....one of them is me)...I just don't want to give people the impression that some corporate geek finally got the clue to listen in on newsgroups.

( after rambling) .... my point is, for the particular city, the search terms are not yet extremely competitive.

I think with the right direction, I could get this site with the "big boys" and ranked #1 in all three.

Any opinions?

Thanks again everyone for the responses and making me feel welcome.

Zuko

JayC




msg:242624
 9:27 pm on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

then pay the spider submission fee for google ($40 last time I checked.)

Is that really what you meant to say? There is no submission fee at Google. You can submit for free, or just wait for the aggressively-spidering googlebot to find your site via a link.

zuko105




msg:242625
 9:42 pm on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

"Is that really what you meant to say? "

Sorry my fault,
Like I said, bear with me while the baby learns to walk :)

hurlimann




msg:242626
 9:51 pm on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Yes very possible.

JayC




msg:242627
 9:55 pm on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Zuko, I was asking because I thought maybe you meant to type something else... or maybe someone was just misleading you! But the only thing I could think of that the $40 figure might be confused with is Inktomi's paid spidering program, which is $39 for the first url (and $25 for each additional). Maybe that's what you were thinking of.

zuko105




msg:242628
 10:18 pm on Jun 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

Well yeah,
Inktomi's $40 for MSN search results, but Overture would take care of that for a while, til my $25 monthly budget ran out.

But that was my mistake.

Zuko

ace_w




msg:242629
 4:52 pm on Jun 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Are u talking about free submission?
In that case I got #1 for yahoo!, google, alltheweb, lycos... nothing else....
MSN didn't even heard about me, although I made it at Yahoo and so on.

carylf




msg:242630
 8:41 pm on Jun 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

For all the complaining we've heard (and participated in) when Looksmart changed to a pay-per-click, we're still finding that Looksmart results place very well at MSN. Before they had changed to the PPC method, we'd considered it one of the best values out there.

It will cost you an editing fee, but you can fine-tune your description and title to place well.

And with Overture PPC prices way up there, .15 is a real bargain!
*

NFFC




msg:242631
 8:51 pm on Jun 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

carylf, I respectfully suggest you take a step back and reconsider the facts. There is nobody who is more into traffic than me but sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand and say "no more". He who pays the piper calls the tune, if "a" company takes a stratagy with its customers that you do not agree with then vote with your $.

>It will cost you an editing fee

Last I looked that was free at the PPC engines.

>can fine-tune your description

Free at the PPC's too.

>and title

Free once again.

>.15 is a real bargain!

Not in my area.

4crests




msg:242632
 9:08 pm on Jun 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

depends greatly on how much competition you have for your important keyword(s).

If you are the only one on the web selling "Turqoise Widgets" and that is your main keyword(s), then you will probably do very well on all search engines.

However, if for example you sell adult oriented products and your main keywords are "SEX" or "NUDE" , you will have a VERY hard time getting #1 on all the search engines you listed.

carylf




msg:242633
 1:15 am on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

"carylf, I respectfully suggest you take a step back and reconsider the facts. "

In some cases, I'd rather pay the $49 fee to make a change - one that is well thought out, not just random guesswork - than pay clicks at $5 and up just because the changes are free. We have some sites that we haven't made changes to that work out just as well from the get go.

Understand this: I don't agree that LookSmart should charge for changes, however, it doesn't mean that their listings don't work. And in some cases, it IS worth $49 if a change will help.

With the new Auto Bid changes that have been made at Overture, were now watching some of our top keyphrases get maxed at $50 per click. Yes, $50 max bids! Granted, no one is actually paying that yet, but we have seen bids more than double today alone. While for several of those same keywords, the site comes up within the top 5 results from our LookSmart listing.

Once again, this may not be worthwhile for everyone or every keyword. Not all bids get that high. And of course, there are options other than Overture, but MSN is important to most SE efforts.

Each PPC has it's issues. All of the SE's are trying to make a buck. Consideration needs to made in regards to where the site needs to be listed and what budget is available to get it there.

zuko105




msg:242634
 2:44 am on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

4 crests....
I would definitely rank #1 in all sites if I had "naked real estate" as my keywords...lol.

No but really now, who is the guy that pays $50 per click. Give me those keywords, and tell me the engine, .... the malicious 11 year old in me wants to charge some big company $500 in 6 seconds.

Now I know why all the big boys are practicing bad accounting.....to hide those PPC fees.

Zuko

Stricko




msg:242635
 4:38 am on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

It seems that Looksmart.com does not have the same costing model for all it's regional sites.

Looksmart Australia has an annual $200.00 US fee that feeds Looksmart Australia, Altavista Australia, NineMSN and Optusnet which are the Australian equivilent of Looksmart.com, Altavista.com, MSN.com and Excite.com. So for that one investment, we are in 4 of the top 6 most visited web sites by Australians.

We also have the option to go on a PPC, on average $1.00 US (via Lookmsart affiliations) and that also feeds Yahoo Australia. If we try and search on Yahoo.com it registers that our IP is hosted in Australia and gives Australian results first. So I guess our marketing dollars go a little further that our US parent Directories and Search Engines. ;)

Just need to focus on Google.

lindavh




msg:242636
 5:02 am on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

Zucko 105
Although new and not a webmaster, I have been following these boards daily, and so from my own reading and "experience" thus far...
(and thank you Marcia and many others for your posts and emails),
you may want to consider optimizing and submitting (PPI) an interior page through Inktomi for your MSN listing (since you said your search term is not that competitive, thus not generating tons of LS (PPC) listings ahead of you...and being listed in MSN's "Web Page" results...I have done quite well with this approach and so don't have to rely on LS (PPC) to be listed on MSN...I still have my "free" if you want to call it that 100 clicks per month with my LS Business listing (which I was given in leui of the $299 I spent like everyone else). When that runs out...my Ink listing is always there...during and after my LS PPC listing...and ranked number 3 on MSN...lot's of traffic...and I can search the terms and results on positiontech where I submitted...
still learning...and now for the Yahoo - Fast challenge...still have to figure that one out...not ranking like I want to on all terms...
Thanks all...Linda

carylf




msg:242637
 12:41 pm on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

Zucko105:
"No but really now, who is the guy that pays $50 per click. Give me those keywords, and tell me the engine, .... the malicious 11 year old in me wants to charge some big company $500 in 6 seconds. "

I'd love to see that. I've already had suggestions to bid at 49.99...but I figured I'd leave that to someone else. From other discussions, the thought is that Overture will change this new policy of exposing the max bids. Otherwise, I'll be best be hanging at #2 and 3 til this cools down. Eventually someone will bid at $49.99 and being number one will have become pretty expensive!

As for Inktomi: Agreed. We do both and in some instances our Inktomi listings rank better in MSN, while in others or LS listing does. Again, it depends on the strategy and budget.

zuko105




msg:242638
 5:23 pm on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

carylf and anyone else for that matter...

Is there some way to see the competitiveness of your keywords in inktomi and LS individually?

That way get a good feel for what listing service to go with first.

As for budget... I wouldn't mind paying .15 per click, for looksmart listings, (because I can control how much I will spend each month ... max $ setting).

Can anyone suggest which one to start with first? Keep in mind I want to rank well in all three MSN, YH, and Google.....keeping in mind link to page ranking when starting my page, and the time to build links.

Thanks.

Zuko

carylf




msg:242639
 6:17 pm on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

zuko105: "Is there some way to see the competitiveness of your keywords in inktomi and LS individually? "

LookSmart is easy enough to see with the redirect URL from MSN and also by listing style. I have a harder time tracking my Inktomi listings, even though we get a simple click report from the company we submit through.

We've had very good luck in both the "old" and "new" versions of LookSmart. I can give you examples of where we have both a LS and Inktomi listing and in almost all cases, the LS listing appears first in MSN, and sometimes exclusively. Now does that mean that there's some weight paid to LS listings in MSN? I don't know.

With Inktomi, you can submit individual pages. That will certainly help if you have targeted information elsewhere on your site. LookSmart is a directory-style listing.

Again, it's back to budget. If you don't mind the .15 per click, go with LS. Being able to set monthly budgets is great if budget is a real issue. If you can afford both, do both. This way you can add some key pages with Inktomi.

I know I'll probably get verbally hit over the head for this one, but if I had to choose, our experience has been better with LookSmart. I would start there - and have successfully done so with several of our clients.

lindavh




msg:242640
 6:36 pm on Jun 27, 2002 (gmt 0)

Zuko...

<Is there some way to see the competitiveness of your keywords in inktomi and LS individually? >

Yes, go to MSN, type in your keywords...
The LS listing is the first set "directory"
The Inktomi listing is the second set "web pages"
Do several variations on your keywords in the MSN search bar and there you will see how they rank with both LS and Inktomi (Simultaneously)

As for submission...and ranking well...
keep reading in these boards, as there is much to learn and the members here are all very helpful.

<Can anyone suggest which one to start with first?>

Sorry...can't help you with that question...maybe someone else can...

Best, Linda

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