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WYSIWYG and Text Code Editors Forum

    
I use WYSIWYG because....
What are its best uses
brotherhood of LAN




msg:937131
 11:10 pm on May 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

Most voices of experience in here will tell you that coding by hand is the best way to achieve what you want - correct code. You want something that can account for every line of code, its place within a page and so forth.

Strictly speaking, you are only handcoding using something like notepad. If you use something like arachnophilia, which is a glorified text editor with a load of other tools, then you are getting help in one way or another to code, so technically you are not hand coding ;)

So what do you think is the best use for a WYSIWYG editor, or any software that helps you produce your code for that matter?

I can start with a few things that come to my mind, but I am sure there are at least 101 reasons as to why you want to be using an editor ....... for whatever reason. A bad workman cannot blame his tools, especially when there is something called open source :)

1. FP favourite - verify all hyperlinks option..do this once every few weeks and bye bye to dead links
2. I can "flip" between code view and output view quickly
3. Something that can present you with an easy on the eye overview of the navigation of your site (sorta like files and folders really)
4. The ability to edit/replace code en masse
5. a hefty instruction kit that you can start off with if you are new to it all or are not proficient with a particular aspect of web sites (like CSS).
6. A follow on to CSS, I got FP to throw some CSS together, sent it through the W3C validator and hey presto.
7. Spell checkers. I don't know how FPages dictionary compares to others, but the MS one is "OK"

Brands of WYSIWYG aside, what editors do you use, and why do you use it? :) I have referenced FP a few times but I have a hunch that many of you don't stick to any one product when taking into account the scope of your WHOLE site.

 

lioness




msg:937132
 11:54 pm on May 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

Brotherhood of Lan, I learned HTML 5+ years ago, when the only way to write it was to use notepad, upload it to your website, look at (all the mistakes in) it, then repeat. For this reason, I like FP's ability to pop back and forth between the drop and drag screen, and the HTML. As much as I go into FP's HTML and edit out all the FP generated code which I feel is not necessary (or, at least have plans to), I do love the ease of the drop and drag screen.

MSInterdev is also a pretty fun to use.

I'd be interested in what people think about Dreamweaver. Recently, someone (who does not do web pages) said, "Oh, you have to learn how to use Dreamweaver." It got me thinking. If ultimately, we are just using these editors as a vehicle to put HTML together, is there something else that DW offers?

Thors Hammer




msg:937133
 11:56 pm on May 31, 2002 (gmt 0)

When I first started playing with making web pages, I used things like Arachnophilia, Coffie Cup, then went to Front Page, and I am really just starting to play with Dream Weaver.

I also started learning how to do hand coding, I am in no way close to the skill level that many of the individuals are here in this forum, but I know enough to be dangerous. ;)

What I liked about Front Page , and DreamWeaver now, is the ability to do changes on the fly (live updates are great, but can get you in trouble :) ). But you can also take a look at the code, and straighten up what you need to, and clean it up. So in a way, I guess to me its kinda like using a 'note pad', but only after you have 'plugged' the elements in it.

I really like Dream Weaver alot, and am going to get MX soon. To me atleast, it seems to write nice clean code. But again, that may be my ignorance talking. :)

I would encourage anyone that is wanting to get into web design, or is in it, to learn the languages so that you can 'hand code' whatever you need to. Or at the very least, be able to look the code over and spot in an instance the "no no's".

I do like to use multiple products, I wont even get into my preferences for graphics manipulation.... I still use alot of other programs for that, the built in stuff from FP just doesnt cut it. And for now, Fireworks seems to be very powerful, but I just dont know enough about it yet... Soon to be rectified. ;)

Thor

caine




msg:937134
 12:08 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

wysiwyg - speed and link checking, probably the biggest reasons for me

Brad




msg:937135
 12:12 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

If it wasn't for FrontPage and other products like it (ie. Trellix) I never would have even started putting up websites.

Slowly, as I flipped back and forth between drag and drop view and HTML view in FP, I started to see the patterns of HTML code. I won't pretend I *really* know HTML code but I can at least edit certain things by hand and I picked that up by flipping back and forth.

I'm not very good at graphic design so I now hire most design work out, but if it wasn't for FP I would still just be surfing.

Olaf




msg:937136
 12:18 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

Interesting question. :-)

In my opinion handcoding is a must if you plan to upgrade your style and go into programmed webpages such as asp/jsp/php/jb/modplsql

Nothing beats a finegrained knowledge on html coding when doing that.

Otherwise you get programmers that need to compile/run/edit/compile/run/etc....

(edited by: Olaf at 12:19 am (utc) on June 1, 2002)

(edited by: Olaf at 12:19 am (utc) on June 1, 2002)

msgraph




msg:937137
 12:18 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

CSS and tables. The CSS editor on DW MX is awesome.

caine




msg:937138
 12:35 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

i can' wait to get my hands on MX, just waiting for the big yes.

Woz




msg:937139
 12:42 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

One of the big things about using an editor is ease of site management.

For example, rename a page or move it to another directory and FP, and I assume others, will recode all links pointing to the page, or graphic or whatever, so they still work correctly.

Also the include page on FP which is a poor mans pre-server SSL.

And other things which don't immediately come to mind.

These things can be done by hand of course, but they are a lot easier in a program.

But, like others, I am not adverse to editing the final code by hand.

Onya
Woz

txbakers




msg:937140
 1:51 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

I like Dreamweaver because I can find the cells I want to edit quickly. If I want to duplicate a table layout I can visually highlight the cell, then switch to the code and copy it, without having to read it to find the proper spot on the page.

Also, when I want to insert something, I just click on the visual part, then switch to the code and my cursor is generally in the right place.

So it's really a combination. I prefer doing most of my tweaking by hand, but for dealing with tables, I like the DW.

Key_Master




msg:937141
 2:36 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

I sometimes dust off the old WYSIWYG (StarOffice) editor when drafting the design layout for a new site. After that it's hand coding all the way using TextPad.

chiyo




msg:937142
 3:23 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

Following your argument BOL, I would say any WYSIYG editor is a "glorified text editor", as it all comes down to text in the end!

To my mind any text editor that allows you easy click or hotkey to access the page displayed in a Web browser, could also be classified as WYSIYG. We all know for example that WYS is very rarely WYG anyway. Renderings vary, even with full W3C compliance in different browsers, and in diff resolutions, screen sizes, and browser pref set ups.

tbear




msg:937143
 8:21 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

I've never been able to get my head around the more 'thorough' wyswyg editors.
I generally use Arach 'cos it lets me do most stuff quickly. It drops the code I want where I want it. Swopping layout on a page is easy enough if you know the code. Arach's hot key browser lets you see the changes, in the browser you choose.
I don't usually go for the latest coding trend, ie, cgi, java, flash, etc.. and I found a lot of wyswygs using them. Maybe I should? I spend a lot of time studying people too, so I haven't been able to spend the time on codes I may or may not use.
Each to his own of course.

keyplyr




msg:937144
 8:28 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

>If you use something like arachnophilia, which is a glorified text editor with a load of other tools, then you are getting help in one way or another to code, so technically you are not hand coding

Sorry, I have never coded anything except by hand, and I use arachnophilia. I just do not use their auto tag makers, templates or other automatic "tools."

The reason I do use Arach is because of the nice view I have. It displays code cleanly and will identify content, tags and atts in different colors if I so choose. It searches and finds words, phrases and code through multiple documents, spell checks, etc... but I still code by hand.

Notepad is an editor for small files. It is not intended to be used as a true HTML editor, and is not even a true text editor; it even says so. The documents it creats and calls a ".txt" file really are not. Be careful to be sure uploads are in binary mode when using automatic FTP settings because some FTP clients have been known to not recognize files created by Notepad as .txt.

When I attempt to C&P very large pieces of code with Notepad, it often maxes out. It also inserts white space into the mark-up. I could go on and on about the bad points of using Notepad as an HTML editor. I don't even use it as a text editor. In fact, I don't use it for anything since I switched to Editpad.

brotherhood of LAN




msg:937145
 11:57 am on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi keyplyr,

I appreciate the fact you strive to hand code and you indeed do :) Im sure you got my point about the fact if you use "any" software to create/store/paste code for you, then one technical reason or another you are not handcoding. But it sounds like you do :) Maybe there are side issues here as to when someone should hand code and when to use WYSIWYG for speed.......I know at the end of it all, I always end up looking straight at the code and making sure "if its not needed- bin it!". This motto is needed with many a FP user :)

Great response, thanks folks :) Not only was I wanting to know what WYSIWYG you use, but "how many and why" sort of thing. It seems nowadays we have a million and one tools to make the website we need, and no doubt there is a "route 1" involving all the best tools from all mentioned :)

I find myself as an intial beginner in FP, moving to some of its more "advanced features" (ahem).......and slowly moving to something more text based that is "hands on" to a hand coder. Good to see WYSIWYG tools still have their place and time, though maybe not all in the same package!

tbear




msg:937146
 4:12 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hey BRO,
please don't think I'm being piccy (hey I'm hardly an expert) but I notice from your profile site a few instances of opened font closed font opened font closed etc. When open font do what you need and at the end close and home to bed.
That is one reson I tend to not worry too much about wyswyg programmes.

*nicely laid out site by the way :)

brotherhood of LAN




msg:937147
 4:52 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

hey tbear...

I know about them too :) The profile site was made a few months ago, and im sure you appreciate you can learn LOTS in WMW in 2 months :) the biology site i do is the one ive been sorting code out for, i guess i should do it for the profile one too.

The other site im in the middle of creating is validating 100%......so its not like im an expert too ..... just on a par with all other beginners :)

lioness




msg:937148
 5:12 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

How many people would say that their own site is the most in need of an overhaul out of all the sites they do?

keyplyr




msg:937149
 5:12 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)


Last week a friend was very enthusiastic that I look at her new website. I did take a peek and it looked very nice, however IMO it did have that 'template' appearance. That's fine, it wasn't 'my' site after all. I also saw that her page weighed in at at about 60k and it was not a very complex looking page. She admitted hiring a web designer who specifically made sure her host supported Front Page extensions. Ah ha!

I volunteered to reduce the bloat and she was amazed that I dumped close to 8k in needless FP crap. I then optimized her images and created an external stylesheet, getting the page to down to 37k.

I have never used software to create a webpage but respect those who choose to do so. However, these tools, IMO, should be used to aid in this process and not be the process - LOL

brotherhood of LAN




msg:937150
 5:22 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

sounds like a good philosophy keyplayr

thats why i hesitate to ask "which WYSIWYG or editor do you use", because different tools have different functions, and as you state, some have a knack of doing it the wrong way.

I know for a fact that after editing a FP created page by sifting through the code - removing un-needed code and removing indentation saves about 20% of the overall file size of the source code

another thing about FP is the fact that FP includes use a line of code, that wouldnt be there using other methods ;) But all this is another topic...........perhaps a new thread on "maintenance of a site" is needed ....... and in HTML design ;)

lioness




msg:937151
 5:30 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

So, is it safe to say the moral of the story is that you should have a good handle on HTML and be able to hand code HTML? However, having an HTML editor like FP is a convenience because it allows you to see what the page looks like w/o having to upload or ftp the page somewhere? And, by knowing HTML, you are able to sift out the FP junk?

brotherhood of LAN




msg:937152
 6:40 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

lioness, that pretty much sums it up for me

im working towards less reliance on WYSIWYG as a beginner though. I'm trying to find the balance between "production line" automation and fine tuning hand coding.

one of my #1 fears (previously and still) was that I do things the long way round. After all, a simple notepad editor wont allow you to search and replace HTML for example

I remember once typing in a long list from notepad into access.....only to find out I could have simply "exported" it one way or another in one foul swoop.

In regards to FP, where I do a majority of my "stuff", there are inevitably shortfalls. If the software could make a perfect site, then every good webmaster would own it :)

Its good to see what everyone is using too, maybe there is something out there more suited to my liking (or everyones).

lioness




msg:937153
 6:48 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

BOL wrote:
I remember once typing in a long list from notepad into access.....only to find out I could have simply "exported" it one way or another in one foul swoop.

BOL,
I see several benefits of this effort of yours.

1. By spending so much time doing it 'the hard way', I'm sure the 'easy way' was ingrained in your brain. I'll bet if someone had shown you that 'easy way', say, on the afternoon of the 2nd day of a 5 day class on Access, I doubt it would have made as much of an impact on you.

2. The next time you are engrossed in a task that appears to be time consuming monkey-work, a little light goes off, and you remember this Access incident, and begin to search for a better way.

3. If you are like me, this traumatic event has such an impact on your psyche that you feel compelled to tell everyone around you of this neat trick you just discovered, thereby making the world a safer and easier place for the rest of us.

brotherhood of LAN




msg:937154
 7:16 pm on Jun 1, 2002 (gmt 0)

lioness, agreed :)

the bottom line is many of the things nagworthy on the web are the output of something like frontpage, without much 2nd thought. The tools are there to be used in the best way possible. This may be which the WYSIWYG and text editor forum was created per chance :)

The bottom line to me is, as wonderful as a computer is, its still just a tool, just like an editor, just like the Internet. Its easy to get swallowed up by all the side trimmings of info that comes across you as a webmaster.

We have a knack for superceding our tools with better ones. MY learning curve here at WMW has hinted me to use Dreamweaver, because the successful webmasters here do so. Its WYSIWYG and it has a function to them.

I would hope to get the best of all programs and produce the best result....and its always nice to share something new you learn, particularly if it may not be common knowledge :)

The recently bumped up thread about "Google banned my site because of CSS" is an example of why I DO NOT LIKE frontpage....it may produce a bad bit of CSS and it gets me the boot. I won't blame frontpage if this happens to me, I'll blame myself for using it :)

Hence the question i use "wysiwyg because".....(maybe another thread is i DONT use wysiwyg because) :)

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