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What's wrong with FrontPage?
Negative comments about the program
shallow

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 12:32 pm on Jan 13, 2006 (gmt 0)

Since I've started participating in this forum not too long ago, I've seen a number of negative comments about FrontPage such as this recent one someone wrote in another thread:

"Only the ones who use FrontPage or using a free blog system can't actually say that they are really webmasters."

I haven't seen any explanations for these types of comments so I'm curious as to why the negativity.

 

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 4:44 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

If some advanced features add "extra stuff" when users choose to employ them, that isn't isn't a flaw in the program

EFV ..the problem is ..frontpage in all it's flavours adds them by default..not in "advanced mode" or "if you want them" ..but because it wants to ..you have to disable the "feature"..

and to do that you actually have to know it is doing it ..most beginners wont even be aware of what it is doing ..nor of the fact that is is unecessary and very very unusuall for an app to do this ..photoshop doesn't "sig" its jpegs ..html is not an MS proprietary format ..much though they would like it to be ( XML ..anyone ; )? )..

[edited by: Leosghost at 4:50 pm (utc) on Jan. 15, 2006]

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 4:46 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

LeosGhost You are MISSING the POINT!
You obviously have a problem with MS and that's your "opinion" just like mine is "my" opinion. Difference is I have actually used the product that we are discussing.

My problem with threads like these where people chime in when they have "no" experience with a program, yet they state based upon evidence of the end product they frequently see, means the product is no good.

I am not defending the program besides with my actual experience with it.
Just like DW or GoLive does not make a professional web developer/designer out of the user, neither does FP make crappy websites.

Let's put it this way if I sent a novice user of a Nikon F6, inexperienced in photography to shoot "nature" pics, and I sent one of National Geographic's top nature photographers into the same area with a $8.00 one-time use camera to do the same I'd lay money that I would judge the one-time use camera's pictures as higher quality. In saying that, does that mean the one-time use camera is better than the Nikon F6? Nope, it means the user skills/creativity far surpass the tool. It's no different with anything else.

I can't say it any clearer than the above when I state my view.

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 4:49 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

.most beginners wont even be aware of what it is doing .

"Beginners" would take a month just to figure out DW (which in my opinion has a very steep learning curve for a novice compared to others). But, does that mean DW is bad - no, it means you have to take time to learn the actual program before judging it.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 4:57 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

It also tried to connect to the server using a Microsoft system rather than using FTP, the established standard.

There is a reason for this. When using FrontPage Publishing routines, everything is documented right down to the "i's" and "t's". If it were any way else, you'd lose an important feature in the Publishing process.

All these complaints I see in this topic are typical ones. Any WYSIWYG editor is going to produce code out of the box that some of us just don't agree with. I'm actually tired of the FP bashing topics but will jump in periodically to give some advice.

I've been using the program since it was a Vermeer product. You know all those _vti folders that you see? Those are from the Vermeer Technology Inc days.

There isn't another program out there that integrates seamlessly with other MS products. And, with Microsoft SharePoint Services, the competition just got left in the dust. Sorry DW users, but we have something you don't have and probably never will have. ;)

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 4:59 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

LeosGhost You are MISSING the POINT!

My point is that I said frontapge does something ..it does it ..
You then said "it doesn't" ..sorry ..it does ;)..MS say they designed it that way ..why say it doesnt
You said DW does the same ..it doesn't ..your "evidence" doesn''t hold water..

You are now claiming that wasn't your point ..

That twice here in one week someones tried to move the goal posts on me when they were wrong ..;)

Used to get a better class of debate here ..;))

BTW ..and slightly OT ..EFV ..I may well be wrong but I assume that most of the people whose primary sites are adsense driven use FP in some form or other cos A) its faster B) it's faster to learn C) It comes free with the box and most of the adsense crowd ( yourself and some others excepted ) are not exactly in this for the long term and don't invest time or money in their sites ..just slap on the adsense code and watch DC's ;) and ask when the checks are coming ;)

one can tell I hand code ;)..I have to come back and sort my spelling and keyboard errors for at least 5 minutes ;))..frontpage would probably do it for me ..maybe even get all of them ~:)..I'll stick with what I've got ..and use DW to check other folks stuff sometimes

I also drive only "stick shift" cars ..or "footshift" bikes ..;)

pageoneresults
There isn't another program out there that integrates seamlessly with other MS products. And, with Microsoft SharePoint Services, the competition just got left in the dust. Sorry DW users, but we have something you don't have and probably never will have. ;)

What on earth makes you presume we would wish to be as dependent on one OS and one companies products as you obviously wish to be ..stand still while they tattoo your bar code ..;)

[edited by: Leosghost at 5:10 pm (utc) on Jan. 15, 2006]

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 5:09 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

It's because it adds in lil' bits of code that serve no purpose unless you are placing the site or pages etc on a windows server.

That's not true and apparently coming from someone who is not familiar with the program. Those lil' bits of code that serve no purpose are actually serving a purpose, and an important one.

I'll assume you are referring to the <webbot> element which is basically an HTML Comment. Those <webbot>s provide functionality within the site without having to use a programming language. It doesn't get any better than this for the beginning web designer.

And yes, the site does need to be hosted on a server that supports FrontPage Extensions. Without them, the <webbots> will not function.

I know of one prime example where people are going to say that the FrontPage <webbot>s produce bad code. This is in regards to FrontPage Includes. I won't get into the technical details of how FP Includes work, but, I've seen many sites that used to be on a server that had FP Extensions and apparently they moved to a server that did not have them. It isn't a pretty site when those <webbots> are not executed. You end up with a bunch of code in your html that shouldn't be there. That is not the fault of the program. That is the fault of the user not putting the site on a server with FP Extensions.

Also, the FP <webbots>s allow third party developers to create a host of plugins for FP that make it even more robust. One of those is the J-Bots plugin. There are 102 components that one can use to enhance their FP Website. Those components fall under four categories...

J-Bots Form Components
J-Bots Image Components
J-Bots Cookie Components
J-Bots Navigation Components

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 5:12 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

I shall now bow out to go make dinner ..and eat it whilst you polish your MS diplomas ..

Each to their own ..but you are now trying to justify that which was previously denied to exist ..

are actually serving a purpose, and an important one.

only if you are placing your pages on a doze server ..rather crass of MS to assume such ..? like as if the burger flipper put ketchup on your fries without asking you first if you wanted? ..;)

jimbeetle

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jimbeetle us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 5:23 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hey, thanks for the heads up on the J-Bots pug-in, PoR.

I'll now be able to make those spammy Frontpage made for Adsense sites even faster ;-).

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 5:59 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

Each to their own ..but you are now trying to justify that which was previously denied to exist ..

Yes, that meta tag for the "generator" really screws up cross-platform compatibility, usability, W3C standards etcetera if not removed in your options/preferences using FP...hehe

I shall now bow out to go make dinner ..and eat it whilst you polish your MS diplomas ..

So, I see by your comments it's Microsoft, which is your problem and not just FP. Better to bring that out in the open in the first place IMHO.

Facts are easy to present however you choose. For instance I'm sure that a Ford Model A is much safer than a Volvo S80, because less accidents happened last year with the model A and fewer people were injured last year in Model A's.

Again, tools do not make up for experience. I can make a 8K page using FP and an 8K external CSS file (using FP) using positioning, styles, colors etc. with the same look and feel as a page created with DW that weighs in at 80K because of using nested tables, graphics, inline styles, font tags, and graphics and they will both meet W3C standards and have cross-browser compatibility - does that mean that DW produces bloated code?

[edited by: The_Contractor at 6:00 pm (utc) on Jan. 15, 2006]

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 5:59 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

Only if you are placing your pages on a doze server, rather crass of MS to assume such?

No, I don't think MS assume that. I think MS assume that you will be running the site on a server that has FrontPage Extensions installed. That would be a Windows or Unix machine, it doesn't matter as long as the FP Extensions are there. FrontPage sites do not require that they run on a Windows server.

I'll now be able to make those spammy Frontpage made for Adsense sites even faster.

Not if you subscribe to what most are saying about FrontPage. You're going to end up with pages that are full of deprecated and invalid markup so be careful. ;)

[edited by: pageoneresults at 6:01 pm (utc) on Jan. 15, 2006]

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 6:01 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

EFV ..I may well be wrong but I assume that most of the people whose primary sites are adsense driven use FP in some form

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about that. People with "AdSense-driven" sites can and do buy scripts that automate the site- and page-generation process. They have no interest in a program that's designed for creating and editing real content manually.

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 6:28 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

In between cooking ..wild salmon .with amonsgt other ingredients ..coconut and ginger .just in case anyone is interested ..;))
..the contractor .
.you denied that frontpage does these things ..then you tried to say ah well so does everything else ..now you are on to trying to say basically "so what does it matter"..

at least pageoneresults and EFV don't try to deny their previous postings ..

And I did say right at the beginning that I like what I have seen of Bill Gates ..and not what I see of Redmond policy ..that is know here ..perhaps you should read the postings of others and your own somewhat more studiously ..then we could debate ..instead of dissemble badly ..in your case ..

BTW one can do CSS in DW ..or maybe you never tried / succeeded ..thus none of us can? ;)

jimbeetle

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jimbeetle us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 6:40 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

You're going to end up with pages that are full of deprecated and invalid markup so be careful. ;)

He, he, he. In the past because I was lazy, maybe. Now that I've found the joys of fully valid html strict and fully valid CSS-P -- both produced with Frontpage -- I'm not going back to my old ways.

shallow

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 6:45 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

Glad I asked my question. I think! ;-)

What can I say but that I love FrontPage. It's opened a world to me for writing about a topic I love and for integrating some skills from my graphic art background...all without knowing much about code, SEO, etc.

Site visitors seem to like my site if the increasing numbers in my stats are any indication; info posted on it has been quoted in a number of respected and widely read publications. I'm making more money than I've ever dreamed I could from a self-taught hobby.

I appreciate all the insights and opinions that have been expressed here, particularly the words of zCat:

having seen this thread, I'm now prepared to accept that FP is a reasonable product :-).

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 6:53 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

shallow, don't worry, us FP users got your back!

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 7:10 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

In the past because I was lazy, maybe. Now that I've found the joys of fully valid html strict and fully valid CSS-P -- both produced with Frontpage -- I'm not going back to my old ways.

Some of us are old-school, or maybe just lazy, whether we're using FrontPage or editing code by hand. I suppose I'll have to worry about CSS at some point, but for now I'm too busy traveling, writing, and editing to worry about things that don't matter to my users, advertisers, or the search engines. (If I were designing pages for clients, as some WW members do for a living, I might have a different point of view.)

jimbeetle

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jimbeetle us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 7:38 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

It took me having a specific project in order to set aside the time to really get into that CSS stuff. Now that I've done it and see the benefits I have to try to set time aside to clean my oldest site, where a lot of just plain poop has accumulated over the years. I know what I'm going to do and how I'm going to do it. Trying to block out the time is the biggest problem.

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 8:09 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

you denied that frontpage does these things ..then you tried to say ah well so does everything else ..now you are on to trying to say basically "so what does it matter"..

Please reread my very first post on this subject/thread (msg#8) where I stated:
Nope, that's simply false with the latest incarnations of the product. Once the settings/preferences are setup correctly it will not add any extra code unless the user specifies it. I have seen dreamweaver, golive, etc bloat and make a mess out of code when one does not know how to use it (actually all WYSIWYG will do this if you use some of the "features")

Do you see where it states Once the settings/preferences are setup correctly it will not add any extra code unless the user specifies it.?

I stand by that statement and all my others.

BTW one can do CSS in DW ..or maybe you never tried / succeeded ..thus none of us can?

When did I ever say DW can't or that I cannot accomplish the same in DW? Obviously our culture differences and my examples are not getting through to you?

Let me put it in BOLD text:
Do NOT blame the program for writing bloated code whether it be DW,GoLive, FP, or other good WYSIWYG editors. They are not at fault - the user is!

All editors I am familiar with (DW, FP, GoLive, & Namo) will write good clean code. I have tried others, but will not comment because of lack of experience on those programs.

My example of FP using 16K total files for the same look/feel compared to a 80K DW file can be switched around. I am NOT saying DW creates bloated code, I'm saying a user could end up with 80K of bloated code in any WYSIWYG editor or even using a text editor - it doesn't mean the program is bad.

stever

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 8:30 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

My example of FP using 16K total files for the same look/feel compared to a 80K DW file can be switched around.

Exactly. I could make the same argument between my DW-constructed CSS-driven pages constructed with includes versus a Notepad purist's nested-table-based unclosed-tag graphics-free soup. It doesn't prove a thing.

The Notepad user could quite rightly turn around and point to the 50 times more users that they have or the better conversion rate.

If you want to handcode and you want correct code you can use any number of tools, including any WYSIWYG, for your purpose. Any of them require a level of skill to use.

If you do not want to handcode or you do not care about correct code or you do not want to learn the various intricacies of a programme, then you can only use a WYSIWYG at whatever level you feel comfortable with.

[edited by: stever at 8:34 pm (utc) on Jan. 15, 2006]

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 8:32 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

Obviously our culture differences

Nope ..sorry ..cant be that ;)'Cos ..I'm Irish ..lived and worked in The USA many times since the 60's ..english is my first language ..french second ..German third "not so good on german" ..so pmkpmk ..don't get cute huh ;))!..Irish gaelic used to be first ( til I was 3 ) but I'm way too rusty ..to claim it as such now ..

Nope ..could it just be that you have selective memory as to your own postings .in this thread ...( aint it a "female dog" that you can't go back and change the older ones to suit ;) ..he he he

Important thing is that The OP got some answers to his question ..remember his question was "negative comments about the program "..now maybe due to cultural reasons you can interpret that as .."jump in and shill for MS " ..and then try to pretend you didn't .for reasons of honesty I can't ..;;))

I am familiar with (DW, FP, GoLive, & Namo)
so what made you claim that FP doesn't do things that even MS says it does ..and that DW does things that only you have seen ..apart from your unresearched by you serp examples ..?

The Contractor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 8:48 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

haha...you obviously haven't read my posts... this is beating a dead horse...your gig is that you are anti-MS.... my gig is that you don't blame the software no matter who makes it for your lack of understanding of the product or how to use it...

Difference is I actually have used the products that I have talked about.... please read Stevers post above since your attitude towards me/my experience with the product(s) seem to ruffle your feathers. It is always best if you write from experience with a product before passing judgement - whether you agree with that or not.

Again, it doesn't matter what tool you use, it's how you use it that counts.

rocknbil

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rocknbil us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 8:52 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

All of the posts in this thread have been from a user standpoint and none of the technical issues that have to be dealt with have been brought up even once.

I have seen the effects of dealing with FrontPage from the ISP side. Its a total nightmare keeping it up and working, and admins spend an extremely disproportionate amount of time dealing with Front Page issues that should just not be problems. I'm not interested in getting involved in this flamefest, but I can tell you these are inherent problems with the proprietary design, on either the Linux or Windows NT/2K platforms, not with the server admins' abilities. Like many other MS apps, it is patched ad nauseum, full of so many security holes many ISP's refuse to host FP extensions, and like many other MS apps, the documentation is circular and support costly and unproductive.

As a developer, I have also have had many clients who are avid FP users, people who simply "LOVE" to point and click and nothing more, call up and ask me to "fix" their sites that have been built and uploaded using the FP file transfer and server-side extensions (part of which is the damnable "themes.") The only way this could be done is through the FP interface, so I can assure you I am well versed in using Front Page. I still hate it, I feel like my hand is forced using it. I know what I need to do, can do it in two seconds with plain code, but if I try that it will upset the entire website because it has to be uploaded using the FP tools (This is a shortened version of the issue.)

Go back to your geek holes and let the rest of the world actually be productive

IN the REAL world no one cares how the code looks..whether it contains propritary code or not ..they care how the Webpages look

These are the same people that call up and complain to an ISP that they're not doing their job because their FP uploads aren't working when in fact, it **IS** 75% of the time a user error and 25% of the time a problem with the FP system. But no one wants to hear that. So we're glad that, from our geek-holes, we're able to keep you pointing, clicking, and drooling without interruption.

Additionally, in the layer of the real world beyond a narrower- minded conception of it, no one really cares how a page "looks" except the overbearing ego that made the page. What people care about is finding what they are looking for. And has been clearly stated in this thread, in the hands of the inept Front Page can severely hinder that requirement.

I was recently asked to take over maintenance on a site that was built in front page. I flatly refused because the cost of setting things right, getting rid of the extraneous code, getting things to work by methods that do not rely on the server-side extensions, was far beyond what the client would want to spend.

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 11:04 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

All of the posts in this thread have been from a user standpoint and none of the technical issues that have to be dealt with have been brought up even once.

I have seen the effects of dealing with FrontPage from the ISP side. Its a total nightmare keeping it up and working, and admins spend an extremely disproportionate amount of time dealing with Front Page issues that should just not be problems. I'm not interested in getting involved in this flamefest, but I can tell you these are inherent problems with the proprietary design, on either the Linux or Windows NT/2K platforms, not with the server admins' abilities. Like many other MS apps, it is patched ad nauseum, full of so many security holes many ISP's refuse to host FP extensions, and like many other MS apps, the documentation is circular and support costly and unproductive.

thank you ."William" ( I'm not an ISP but I do host );))

..also been there done that and am still occasionally suffering from still doing that ( hosting stuff that I don't want to ..thereby hangs a tail/tale ..I have touched upon "it" ( the appendage ) before )..( but as the OP didn't ask from hosters point of view thus /donc "I" didn't get into it/go there )..

(nevertheless I do appreciate your input..I trust the OP does also ..I assume no less )

"flamefest" ..No ..if everyone is prepared to stand by their original posts ..there is no problem ;)..it's the weaselyness/weaseliness?( hard to know with that one ..maybe it is "cultural" ;)) ( nearly accurate "cheap shot" that one ..heh heh ) that brings me out from under my bridge ..everytime ;))

..like the bleating that happens here sometimes ..
helping and replying to the original OP is a choice ( I choose yes! )..the OP or other posters may or may not agree / disagree ( all except one apparently have at least the same definition of "relevant" as I do ) ..but I personally can't see the point in posting if it isn't honest ..or amusing .or thought provoking ..when neither ( can one use neither when more than 2 possiblilities are presented? ) criteria apply to a post ..or when one posts a generalisation and then seeks to imply that others misunderstood the supposedly specific and supposedly accurate cited example and then seeks to deny having posted the same and to hide behind the far more coherent ( and more honest and more specific ) postings of others ( with whom one ( I )may still disagree ( on the detail )..but at least they stand by their posts ..<OT define "debate" /OT> as opposed to "shift perceived position as it suits one" "you" ( the contractor )may quote me ;)..

to ..the contractor..I'm gonna stop talking to you now ..not because you are "right" ..or "you won" or "whatever"..but simply because these fora are the only ones in which I have to say ( because I like this place more than the others I frequent and even have run as admin or otherwise ..even when I may disagree with what I perceive as "policy" )when you try to present your previous posts as other that what they really actually said ..then I just cant be arsed dealing with anyone so dishonest as yourself ..about you wrote and what is still there for all to read..

I would be amazed if stevers agreed that you didn't post what you have posted uptil now ..it's not because he agrees partially with you that he is endorsing your backtracking over your own posts ..I hope ;)..that is however for stevers to say neither you nor I have the right to appropriate his comments to endorse our own arguments ..nor your previous posts

I tend to listen to my wife's ( average surfer )take on the internet ..a lot ..she doesnt even know how to switch this machine on ( I do it for her and then leave her to it ..she isnt interested how to do it hersaelkf ..but she says frequently ..why do people abuse this amazing thing to lie about stuff ..and then try to pretend they didn't say it ...?..

mods / admins leave this / dont leave this /edit / dont edit ..your choice ..

[edited by: Leosghost at 11:10 pm (utc) on Jan. 15, 2006]

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 11:09 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

I was recently asked to take over maintenance on a site that was built in front page. I flatly refused because the cost of setting things right, getting rid of the extraneous code, getting things to work by methods that do not rely on the server-side extensions, was far beyond what the client would want to spend.

Oh, for heaven's sake! I've seen awful sites that I knew were handcoded in a text editor, but I didn't blame Notepad :-)

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 11:30 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

EFV ..( and I say this laughingly ) ..how did you "know" they were done in note pad .., .."it" doesn't "sig" it's output like FP ..

I dont personally give a flying **** which editor or not one uses ..I just can't see the point of some folks posting replys here to those who are asking genuine questions and in replying being less than honest with their answers ..( you were honest with your answers as you experience them as was pageoneresults )

All wysiwyg editors have their strangenesses ..but to deny that frontpage does stuff specific to frontpage ..and then to say they all do "only the stuff that frontpage does" and then to deny having said any of that..and then to say "oh well I never said any such thing and anyway it doesnt matter if it does do those things " ..

you didn't do that ...you are interested in results ..as are most who make pages ..but I have never seen you be dishonest about your own posts posted on a previous page in the same thread ..and I dont think I ever would ..( like I said earlier I dont think you are in "this" for the short term )..

And unless the contractor is actually connected to MS ( their PR people are way better ..i know some of them;personally ..they dont need this kind of "friend" ) or thinks they need an inept shill ( they don't ) or ..just doesn't get why most of us post here ( it isn't to take.. it's to give /help if possible ..or to at least engage in honest debate or exchange of ideas and maybe to change and modify them ( ours and those of others )..
Then I cant see why he jumped in with so much easily disprovable rubbish ..

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 11:41 pm on Jan 15, 2006 (gmt 0)

BTW ..before anyone else is so indiscreet as to mention such things :)..after dinner and 2 bottles of "St Nicholas de Bourgueil" I am rather less than scrupulous about my english ( or for that matter my french )spelling ( other languages can be expected to be treated with the same somewhat cavalier attitude ;)..

One has to have some sense of priorities ( in french it would translate as the "things of a greater importance" ) ..;)

rocknbil

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rocknbil us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 11:58 am on Jan 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

Oh, for heaven's sake! I've seen awful sites that I knew were handcoded in a text editor, but I didn't blame Notepad :-)

No but you probably cussed a fit over all the stupid FONT tags, and the absence of CSS anywhere, and wondered how you were going to get rid of all those "stupid tables." :-D

I am not so amazed by the swiss cheese software as I am buy the position of absoluteness self righteousness of most of those using it, that it's the greatest thing since Microsoft Word.

oddsod

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 7:19 pm on Jan 16, 2006 (gmt 0)

Did anyone mention htaccess?

And, chillisoft is pathetic at asp pages. (Setup a db and FP will push you into asp extensions)

And when you have several pages opened in edit mode you can't right click tabs and close them (like you get used to in Firefox).

And you'd be better staying with a Windows server, especially if you want to do "complex" things later. But, Windows hosts seem to be more worried about server stability and cringe at the mention of thirdparty programs like ISAPI_rewrite.

And, lots of little annoyances. But, I still have to use it on some of my sites, so I do.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 5:49 am on Jan 17, 2006 (gmt 0)

Did anyone mention htaccess?

A minor annoyance (and only if you use the FrontPage server extensions, which I don't).

I am not so amazed by the swiss cheese software as I am buy the position of absoluteness self righteousness of most of those using it

Nope. The self-righteousness comes from those who are on a jihad against anything sold by Microsoft. Kind of like Mac bigots, but that's a topic for another day. :-)

My advice: Take a deep breath and tell yourself slowly, "It's just a tool...it's just a tool..."

oddsod

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 2:10 pm on Jan 17, 2006 (gmt 0)

I kept saying "It's a tool... it's just a tool" and FP replied, "If you aren't using my server extensions the purpose is defeated and you don't really appreciate me. Why don't you go use a cheaper WYSIWYG editor?"

Women! :)

Wlauzon

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 1330 posted 3:24 pm on Jan 17, 2006 (gmt 0)

(Bitching about FrontPage 98, as I've seen people do here, is like reciting complaints about Windows 98 or an outdated Mac operating system--what's the point?)

I have seen this many times, and it is actually sort of funny. In fact in this thread alone there are about 5 mentions of "shared borders", which went out.. what.. 4 years ago?

But it is not peculiar to MS products, I think it is human nature for some to develop a personal hate for a company that goes beyond all logic. I used to play Everquest (an online MMORPG game), and I saw exactly the same kind of posts about Sony Online - people complaining about things that had been changed in the game years ago, but they are still using it as an example of a bad program.

FP has a few issues (like less than perfect CSS support), but they are not near as horrible as some would make them out to be.

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