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WYSIWYG and Text Code Editors Forum

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Best WYSIWYG editor?
I am tired of cleaning up after FP
dauction

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 128 posted 2:01 am on Sep 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

and I really dont care to hand code all day long.. want to be able to work in the "normal" view that FP has ..but also still be able to switch back to html view when needed.

I want FP but without all the head aches !

anyone..?

Thanks..

 

kcartlidge

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 128 posted 7:22 pm on Nov 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

'europeforvisitors' - you're right.
I think to be honest I just don't like (personally) software that thinks it knows best and bloats out everything. I'm a bit of a purist at heart and it actually gets me annoyed.

I do accept your point though that the bandwidth issue is relatively minimal compared to the images etc in a page and I was wrong to denigrate FP because it just doesn't work the way I do.

Also, as you say, I haven't tried newer versions (despite having it installed).

I think my comments came from snobbery. I'm a programmer and so I look at web design the same way (in fact I never use pure html now, all my sites are database-driven PHP even to the main menu on the index page).

I appreciate that for others they just want a quick tool to allow them to concentrate on aesthetics, and so I retract my comment as I am underinformed on the later versions.

One thing I will say, though - the Frontpage marquee function has a lot to answer for when it comes to setting standards for bad page design!

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 128 posted 8:59 pm on Nov 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

One thing I will say, though - the Frontpage marquee function has a lot to answer for when it comes to setting standards for bad page design!

You mean the scrolling marquee? That isn't a FrontPage feature per se. As I recall, it was introduced in Internet Explorer 2.0 or 3.0 as a response to Netscape's "blinking text" feature. The browser wars weren't pretty--from an aesthetic point of view, they caused a lot of collateral damage. :-)

I suspect that most WYSIWYG authoring programs and HTML editors include tools for creating scrolling marquees, just because they're part of the Web designer's repertoire. (I can't say for sure, because I find scrolling marquees nearly as annoying as Flash animations and background music, and I'd never dream of using them!)

lioness

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 128 posted 10:21 pm on Nov 24, 2002 (gmt 0)

For those of you who swear by Dreamweaver, which version do you have? I'm trying to decide between Dreamweaver MX ($95) and the e-learning suite ($400). Any thoughts?

Eric_Jarvis

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 128 posted 5:39 am on Nov 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

hmmm...haven't used anything later than FP2000...but after cleaning up our site from the version produced with it I ended up with most files 40% of the size and operating exactly the same...you don't need to clean up after FP, but it's well worth the effort in terms of SE positioning and download times

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 128 posted 2:44 pm on Nov 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>hmmm...haven't used anything later than FP2000...but after cleaning up our site from the version produced with it I ended up with most files 40% of the size and operating exactly the same...you don't need to clean up after FP, but it's well worth the effort in terms of SE positioning and download times.<<

What did that other 60% (the code that was removed) consist of?

What FP features and "available technologies" were you using or not using?

How much text is on your pages? (The more text you have on a page, the less you can reduce file sizes by hand-tweaking the code that surrounds it.)

Were you using templates? If not, why not? (FrontPage won't mess with existing code, so you could have hand-tweaked your templates and typed text into a "text container" area.)

As for SE positioning, I'm #1 for some very competitive keywords and keyphrases, and my current Alexa Traffic Ranking is neck-and-neck with Travel and Leisure's and way ahead of Travel Holiday's, so I don't think FrontPage has hurt me.

In the end, the choice of a production tool (whether it's a Web authoring tool/HTML editor or a snow shovel) comes down to what makes *you* most productive. More productivity = more content = more pages in the search engines = more traffic = more revenue. If you're a sole proprietor with no employees, you're probably better off producing large quantities of Web content with templates than hand-tweaking code on every page.

I'm an editor and writer by trade, and FrontPage fits my style of work by not getting in the way. If I were a Web designer by trade, I'd probably use DreamWeaver, and if I were a programmer by trade, I'd probably hand-edit code in HomeSite--or maybe even in Notepad or XyWrite, as I did back in the mid-1990s (when I created my first Web site) or the late 1980s (when I was hand-coding text for use with typesetting and DTP software--an annoying, distracting task that I equate with hand-coding of HTML today).

SIDE NOTE: Some people will do anything to avoid writing, and I know writers who spend vast amounts of time hand-coding their pages or playing around with PostNuke at the expense of Web content. To such people, I have one piece of advice: "Spend less time with tools and more time producing pages!"

BlobFisk

WebmasterWorld Senior Member blobfisk us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 128 posted 2:55 pm on Nov 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Totally Aside

Chameleon said about Dreamweaver:

  • I can't seem to figure out a way to attach a style to any tag without manually typing class="blah" in the HTML view
  • It's not the best, but by selecting the paragraph/object you want to apply a style to, click on the relevant class in the style window, and it will apply it to your selected object.

    Warning: it's not absolutely solid... you'll still need to check it in the code view!

    Eric_Jarvis

    WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



     
    Msg#: 128 posted 4:41 am on Nov 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

    europeforvisitors: "What did that other 60% (the code that was removed) consist of?"

    redundant font tags mostly...a certain amount of surplus or pointless formatting stuff, it does like to go for the double line break rather than paragraph now and again though that doesn't add a lot

    mostly though it simply had added a single attribure in each tag when either no tag was required at all or multiple attributes would have been far more efficient

    europeforvisitors: "What FP features and "available technologies" were you using or not using?

    I'm leaving FPE out of this...they were an entirely different problem

    europeforvisitors: "How much text is on your pages?"

    the site is entirely text based...there are few images at all

    europeforvisitors: "Were you using templates? If not, why not? (FrontPage won't mess with existing code, so you could have hand-tweaked your templates and typed text into a "text container" area.)"

    yes it used templates...and no FP DOES alter existing code even if you've told it not to...not as badly as it does when it comes out of the box, and nowhere near as horrendously as older versions...but it still takes liberties and makes assumptions

    europeforvisitors: "As for SE positioning, I'm #1 for some very competitive keywords and keyphrases, and my current Alexa Traffic Ranking is neck-and-neck with Travel and Leisure's and way ahead of Travel Holiday's, so I don't think FrontPage has hurt me."

    well done...but the fact that it ranks well doesn't mean it couldn't do better

    you are right content is the most important thing...and for some people handing over the entire control of the mark up to software may be the only way for them to operate...for me I found FP slowed me down and caused me to waste huge amounts of time trying to fight it's default settings when just slapping new content into a template page with a text editor takes no time at all and tends to come out spot on first time

    horses for courses and all that...but this should stay factual not degenerate into everyone stating that their way of working is best for everyone...FP does not produce partivularly clean code even now...it is cheaper than Dreamweaver and easier to use without thinking about the process than a text based editor...that may suit some people...they may as well use it...but it is no more than that

    europeforvisitors



     
    Msg#: 128 posted 2:05 pm on Nov 26, 2002 (gmt 0)

    >>redundant font tags mostly...<<

    I see that in tables; nowhere else. I suppose it might be significant if my pages consisted primarily of tables rather than text.

    >>but this should stay factual not degenerate into everyone stating that their way of working is best for everyone...<<

    I quite agree, which is why I've been saying that people should use the tools that make THEM most productive. (In my case, that's FrontPage; if I were a Web designer, it might be Dreamweaver or a text editor.)

    crosenblum

    10+ Year Member



     
    Msg#: 128 posted 5:01 pm on Dec 18, 2002 (gmt 0)

    The goal is to have error free, easy to read, easy to modify code that produces the results you want.

    I have yet to find a WYSISWYG tool that does that, without requiring some time spent to clean up the html code.

    I understand the concept of WYSISWYG in terms of generating the layout and design. Makes total sense, then you have to convert that layout into practical HTML. That follows the basic standards.

    The key here is finding the right mixture. If the WYSISWYG editors had better standards adopted for how it outputs the results.

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