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WYSIWYG and Text Code Editors Forum

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Things to be aware of when using FrontPage
Remind us why you didn't use it, or workarounds for its pitfalls
brotherhood of LAN

WebmasterWorld Administrator brotherhood_of_lan us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 115 posted 3:06 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

Frontpage Unique "Qualities"
Things you loathe about the mechanics of a certain program called FP

Well, we can all laugh at Frontpage....yeah it is funny the things it does- and I would not recommend anyone to buy it to be honest, but that is my opinion :)

I wanted to make a head-up thread about some of FP's pitfalls...since we can all sometimes be pretty keen to put it down. If you think FP is bad for web design - please do not hesitate to give it full frontal.

Some things that I change that FP can give you no choice over.....and some things you wouldn't expect in any other situation.

1)
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 5.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">

This is trash. It is the default for making a new page (quickest way to do this in Frontpage is CTRL+N) I notice that even when you make a saved template of a page, it will insist on inserting them when you open the page again.

2) Broken T ag<a/s

I don't know exactly when FP does this, but at times, it does a great job of it. (Especially) Broken P tags = no validation and who knows what the result looks like in certain non-MS browsers. All of the problems with broken tags is by using the WYSIWYG view, which is what FP is meant to be all about. To fix this, you need to know how to hand code yeah? Since this is the case, FP is nice for a "slap up" design, but not for writing the sort of code that would give your site the sort of direction it needs.

3) Handling of PHP

No doubt a factor in other scripting languages, but when I was dawdling along in learning PHP, when saving a page, all the escaped characters that are in character strings are replaced with something....else.

4) Nodoctype for your pages

Why should I have to bother....it seems to do everything else that I otherwise wouldn't consider as an "enterprise" web designer.

5) CSS Creation

Frontpage can make CSS quickly, but it doesn't add values like px or %'s to some CSS attributes that require it. Again, why should I have to know any better...what exactly do you pay for. It also won't check over itself for non-validating CSS that it implements by using the >>Format > Style option on your .css page. IMO if the option intends to make CSS for you, it should make CSS that will actually work.

6) Webbots and Extensions

Are going to add to the cost of your webhosting, and if your host doesn't take that into account, the non-FP extension users will have something to say about that and their hosts business model ;) I have also seen a thread here in WebmasterWorld that references a program that looks for the Frontpage extensions on a windows server and simply wants to mess the extensions up...meaning every Frontpage you rely on (including Frontpage forms for feedback or anything you consider important) - useless. I don't know how much of a problem that is.

7) Handling of Temporary Files

Under the >>Tools > Options menu, you have the choice of configuring different editors for each file extension. You might say (after finding out some of the above) that's a plus. Maybe not. Click on a database in your FP web and do your stuff. Find out hours later that it wasn't the db you clicked on to edit, but an obscure temporary file that sits in a temporary folder with many other copies of your same database....every time you have done the same thing in the past. (Before I knew this I had about 10 copies of the same DB in a temp folder!) If you ever need a backup of a database, FP is doing it, just it never mentioned it nor would you expect it. So make sure you don't click on a DB file when inside FP.

If you click on any other file inside Frontpage that opens in another prog (usually notepad) and want to see updates and actually make-your-work-happen - you have to click on the FP program again so that FP can do whatever-it-must to update the file you intended to edit. (IMO - just edit the **... file you click on FP thank you).

Basically, FP imports any edits you've made outside the program once you click on it again. If it asks "a more recent file has been saved- would you like to overwrite it - click NO...this is FP wanting to revert to what it assumes was the last edits you made to the file (which, as far as it is concerned- is the edits you do in FP). The same goes for if you close the program and it asks to import newer files...tell the program where to go by clicking no...

8) Shared Borders

Shared Borders are the best worst invention in ages. They are splayed a bit like frames but can get all screwed up in light of all the mess that is involved in editing pages. Basically, FP controls shared borders....and their is nothing else like them on the web as far as I know. Basically they are like an awkward "include" that you would otherwise use to include content of your choice. The advantage of shared borders is if you don't have knowledge of CSS to position things, HTML to

9) Edit / Replace

Although any edit replace tool is nice...especially if you want to place bad code (who/what writes bad code) .... then FP will help you clean up the mess that whatever or whoever made. The only problem is that it scripts all those things that FP will automatically include for you, such as a line like this
<!--webbot bot="Include" U-Include="hastobe.htmbtw" TAG="BODY" -->
Now, the idea of this FP "component" is to save you time editing and replacing any old code that you want to supercede.....but in the case of this "comment code"...it skips it. Great...maybe I wanted to change the includes I use - nevermind, best stick to -normal- includes....either that or spend a couple of hours on a few hundred pages that would take 2 minutes editing/replacing using another program.

10) The Frontpage Includes
The FP include function is under >>Insert > Webcomponent > Included Content. It is like any other type of include i.e. usually the code <!--#include file="whateryou.like"-->. If you use the FP include...make sure to delete everything you didn't make "on-the-page" apart from the <html> and <body> opening tags...or the include won't be included. Otherwise the FP junk mentioned in (1) will be there. It doesn't get displayed on the page...but its something that adds to fat code and increasing disk usage. Also, when a FP include is displayed...you get checksum lines like this.

<!--webbot bot="Include" U-Include="hastobe.htmbtw" TAG="BODY" startspan -->The stuff you really wanted and not everything else <!--webbot bot="Include" i-checksum="35763" endspan -->

That's an extra 120 odd characters weight on your page courtesy of FP code. See here [webmasterworld.com] as to why Frontpage should not have this 'facility' as it stands in future :). Even if file sizes don't matter in Google, the lines of code are not needed- and are wasted bandwidth. Most of my pages are about 6/8k in source code using 3 includes - so using FP includes would increase my file sizes by 10% with no benefit to nothing.

That is 10 things that annoy me most about Frontpage that come to mind. I make this thread thinking that some experienced FP users may have ways round the above, while those who use FP because of its WYSIWYG capabilities and assume that it does everything correctly- be aware!

I guess some people almost hate the prog with a vengeance. I would assume some people do so because of the way it stifles something that you want to do...build a web page! :)

Regardless of expertise, knowledge external to FP, or anything- the program has faults that can make a site substandard. I don't claim to be an expert designer, and I still use FP for many things (like link validation amongst others).....but try to place lesser reliance on the prog

I've used it for over a year and a half, same time I have been making websites. I know some of you designers have stuck with FP over the years and may have something to add. Non-FP users...why not get a spade and help dig the grave here?? :) At one point in time, you said "I will not design sites with FP because...." - so what were the reasons?

Otherwise I don't think there is a place on the web that rants FP in detail. Perhaps we could start it here (and for the sake of equality-have another thread about its plusses).

After all it is one of the most commonly used programs to make a website today. Perhaps not the mainstream choice of an expert..nonetheless...still a player.

 

bobriggs

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 3:32 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'm convinced.

I've tried a number of editors. Best I liked was html-kit by chami.com. But I threw that one out because I found out that I could do the same things and just as easily with notepad.exe. No need to have previews, just have your browsers open to the file on the hard disk, make a change, go to the browser and refresh. I seem to have a better knack at coding pages now, and there is a lot less time wasted on validation.

So the editors may give you a jump start at coding pages, but in the long run (at least in my case) you're better off hand-coding.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 3:57 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hey BOL, I've got solutions for you for almost each and every one of those dislikes. Its all a matter of how you set up your preferences. I'll get to these as I can, but here are the first two that are fairly simple.

1) <meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 5.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">

2) Broken T ag<a/s

Solution

Tools > Page Options > HTML Source

The HTML Source tab is where you can make or break your web. Years ago I got away from the typical tabbed or indented html layout. I now use a left justified layout and will use comments when necessary to separate content.

I have my Page Options set up like this...

Formatting

Tags names are lowercase (Checked)
Attribute names are lowercase (Checked)
Allow line breaks within tags (Unchecked)
Indent: 0 spaces
Right margin: 2000 characters (prevents wrapping)

You want to make sure that the allow line breaks within tags is unchecked. If checked, you will typically run into the hanging </p> or </td> tags which cause spacing problems within your copy.

Once you press okay, all pages developed in that web will maintain those properties until you go back in and modify them. When you do, then there is a somewhat time consuming process of reopening each page that has already been built with the previous preferences, and resave them going through this routine...

While in Normal View go to Tools > Page Options > HTML Source > Reformat using the rules below (hopefully your new preferences).

Now switch to HTML View go to Tools > Page Options > HTML > Preserve existing HTML.

Before you Save, you may want to strip out the two proprietary FrontPage Tags if they are there. Once you do this, they will not reappear unless you right click on a page in normal view and go through the page properties tabs. Its the Custom Tab that will bite you. If you view that tab and then press okay, you've just reinserted the two tags.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:04 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

> 4) Nodoctype for your pages

Why should I have to bother....it seems to do everything else that I otherwise wouldn't consider as an "enterprise" web designer.

If you are building a site from inception, the only way to use FP is with templates. You build four or five different templates based on the requirements of the site structure. This is also when you build your includes, I'll provide more information on those later.

Your templates will include all the elements necessary to manage most smaller to medium sized websites, doctypes included.

> 5) CSS Creation

I never used the CSS creation in FP. I just build my files using Note Pad and write the css as needed during the initial structuring of a site. I stick to the basics, nothing fancy.

> 8) Shared Borders

Never, ever use the Shared Border feature of FP, it should not even be an option. If the user tries to insert a shared border, they should get shocked or something!

The code that FP generates for the msnavigation elements are extremely bloated. I've seen pages that had a text to html ratio of less than 10%. View the source code and get a message saying that the file is too big for Note Pad, wonderful!

The FP Includes function just like any other include as long as the FP Server Extensions are installed. I've been using them for over 6 years without fail and they perform very well. You just have to know how to use them in conjunction with all the other preferences.

[edited by: pageoneresults at 2:53 am (utc) on Dec. 16, 2005]

brotherhood of LAN

WebmasterWorld Administrator brotherhood_of_lan us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:08 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

pageone RE (2)

Nah, I was not referencing physical line breaks on the HTML source- though I guess that is another mark for the scorecard. I was meaning that the program in "normal" mode sometimes does not add the ending tag as it should without manual editing of the HTML.

Again, this would seem normal to anyone who handcodes or works with HTML, but maybe not someone totally new to the idea of webpages I guess :)

Just thought I'd slip that in...and you included (1) in there....can that be solved under those options?

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:16 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

> I was meaning that the program in "normal" mode sometimes does not add the ending tag as it should without manual editing of the HTML.

You know, I haven't had that problem since I started using css a couple of years ago. I also work quite a bit with these options chosen...

Ctrl + /

This will reveal the html tags in normal view and give you far greater control over your formatting. You can select entire tags and edit them on the fly from normal view. I can't remember the last time I've seen a missing tag with all the preferences I have set.

Yes, #1 can be solved with the above solution. Check your sticky mail, I'm sending you a link to view various screen shots and instructions that I've developed over the years. Its only a few pages but those few will make your life much easier working with FP! ;)

You should also work with your Show All selected (Ctrl + Shift + *) as this works in conjunction with the Reveal Tags option (Ctrl + /) and will show you where your Soft and Hard Returns are located.

You'll want to make sure that all ending tags are properly positioned, especially those </td> and </p> tags. If those two tags are hanging by themselves, you will see unusual spacing issues between cells <td> and paragraph <p> text.

<td> Incorrect Example:
<td>Content here...
</td>

<td> Correct Example:
<td>Content here...</td>

<p> Incorrect Example:
<p>Content here...
</p>

<p> Correct Example:
<p>Content here...</p>

There is an art and science to using FrontPage correctly and these are just some of the tips I've learned since I first started using the program back in 1996! Here's another one you'll catch when revealing tags...

Properly nested <font> tags
Anytime you specify a color for a font you need the <font color="#******"> tag (unless you are using CSS). When using colors for headline text we tend to <b> that copy.

There is a specific sequence in FrontPage to properly nest the font tags. You can see the differences by revealing html tags Ctrl + /.

Here is the correct way...
First select your copy to be bolded. Then you can either use the bold command from your toolbar or Ctrl + B.

Select your font color and that's it. Notice how your tag looks like this...

<font><b>Content here.</b></font>

Here is the incorrect way...
First select your font color. Then bold your copy and that's it. Wrong! You end up with a tag that now looks like this...

<b><font>Content here.</font></b>

The above tag is not nested correctly. The <b> needs to be after the <font> and the </b> needs to be before the </font>.

Sorry, that last part about <font> tags is a little dated, although I still see a lot of sites using them.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:36 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

In FP2002, you can now right click while in html view and reformat your html based on new page preferences. This is where the templates come in and all the other features of includes. Once you've set up your html formatting, many of the problems mentioned above will be non-existent, especially FP's sneaky way of inserting their proprietary tags! ;)

FP2000 and prior did not have this feature that I can remember.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 6:22 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

9) Edit / Replace

FP has a powerful Edit and Replace feature. FP includes are not meant to be changed through the F/P command.

If you need to change anything in an include relative to the webbot, 99.5% its the file name. All you do in this instance is change the file name at the directory level and FP automatically updates across the entire site. Anytime you are making changes to file names, you should have all pages closed in your editor.

Also, if there was that chance of .5% where I had to do a Find and Replace routine for code within the webbot tags, I'm able to search and replace, not sure what is going on with your version, I'll assume its FP2002?.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 6:36 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

> 10) The Frontpage Includes

Bro, I'm not sure what you mean about "deleting everything you didn't make on-the-page", meant. Your FP includes are built just like any other page. There is no need to delete anything before the <body> tag as it is not rendered at the browser level. The only content that is displayed in an include is what falls between the <body></body>.

I use the includes to insert WebTrends Live tracking script. I also use them on asp pages. Again, I've had no issues with FrontPage Includes in over 6 years.

The extra 120 characters of code can be made up by setting your preferences up as I've described. The amount of code bloat you save in reformatting your html allows you more room to breathe. The screen shots I sent you should give you a clearer picture of the interface, I'm sure you've been in there! ;)

If you'll notice in the html source dialog, you can literally set preferences for all the primary tags. I can't see any reason why someone would want to do this other than creating a nightmare when someone else needs to work on the site. If you keep the code clean and without all the typical indent type formatting, you'll notice an overall improvement in how the site performs. That has been my experience.

akogo

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 7:05 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

At one point in time, you said "I will not design sites with FP because...." - so what were the reasons?

I remember not being able to figure out how to use some of the key features, such as publishing a web (this was back in early 1997). Like you mentioned, FP adds back codes you removed and don't want each time you save files. There wasn't any outstanding new feature I though I would need beyond FP97 so I never upgraded. All the new developments in HTML, CSS and browsers are freely available on the web so why pay MS $$$ each upgrade? IMHO, learning how to code by hand develops your understanding of HTML that can help you in troubleshooting problems. Can anyone learn or develop a deep understanding of HTML by clicking away at menus and buttons using FP? You don't need to know how to code by hand, but for me it's more satisfying, simplifying and fun.

Woz

WebmasterWorld Senior Member woz us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 7:53 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

One great thing about FP is that you can program your own add-ins using VBA to get around any challenges it may present. I havn't done this myself, but several free add-ins ara available from Jimco [jimco.com], including one that automaticall deletes the proprietry "made by FP" tags. He also has some very useful things like save all, close all, slective publish, and so on. Some of them were I believe integrated into FP2002. Worth a look.

Onya
Woz

chinook

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 11:55 am on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

There are some good features to FP. Keep in mind, people new to doing web design (new small businesses etc) are completely daunted by html coding and even dreamweaver is daunting. It does take a while to understand weird stuff (property inspectors etc are not intuitive). Most people that are new to web design have at least a rudimentary grasp of word processing and FP in its wyswg mode feels so much like word processing that the user feels confident.

My personal approach is to use Dreamweaver for some stuff and FP for other stuff and notepad for even other stuff.

One more note is that if you are writing script by hand, the html view on fp works fairly well.

My personal tip on fp is to never use the publish command, just open & save directly to the server.

idiotgirl

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 3:12 pm on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

I've lost track of how many times it wants to reference images on your hard drive in the code C:// blah blah - and I never did figure out why. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. And it's sneaky about it, too!

Then there's all the webbot this-and-that... enough to make you rip your hair out if you are quickly comping out a form. FrontPage and XSSI? Just shoot me. It's a regular meltdown.

If I follow the indentations in the HTML created with FP's default settings... I become dizzy and pass out. It's like following a drunk driver's taillights down 50 miles of bad road.

I use Front Page for quick layouts - never to manage a site or really write any code for it. I spend a great deal of time reformatting what it creates (doing mock-ups) and deleting proprietary markup. For that reason alone, it hasn't proven to be any kind of an authoring tool or timesaver.

I, personally, choose not to update or collaborate on sites that use this as their publishing tool because... well... I don't need another ulcer and I can't stand the sloppy %$!#@ mess it leaves behind. It's like having a really, really arrogant tornado hit your directories and leave bits and pieces of houses (folders and files) strewn from here to there.

No thanks - no way - no how.

Eric_Jarvis

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 3:44 pm on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

I think my feelings about FP can be summed up with

"who needs labour saving software that needs that much sheer slog to get anything halfway decent out of?"

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 3:52 pm on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

Slog?

I say we have a contest of some sort. You show me a page that you built in your WYSIWYG program and I'll take it and improve upon it! Then I'll show you my page.

FP caters to all users depending on their level of expertise. Its not the program, its the users. You can do it one way, or you can do it the right way. FP has its faults, but they are no more or no less than any other program designed to do the same thing. I used DW for about a year as a side learning project. Went back to FP after I realized I was too far entrenched in the FP way.

Once you learn html, it won't matter what program you use. How you set up your preferences will determine how the coding stands up to scrutiny. Heck, I have over a 1,000 pages out there built in FP, 99% of them validate W3C HTML4.01 Transitional, and they perform extremely well for their given topics.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:10 pm on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

> 3) Handling of PHP

> No doubt a factor in other scripting languages, but when I was dawdling along in learning PHP, when saving a page, all the escaped characters that are in character strings are replaced with something....else.

This happens when you don't have your preferences set to preserve existing html. If you have the reformat using the rules below checked, that is where the problems begin.

I can't emphasize enough that before you build any web in FP, you need to make sure your Page Options and HTML Source are configured as I've pointed out above. If not, then expect to experience most of what BOL outlined.

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:16 pm on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

BOL, in an effort to help those reading this thread understand the instructions I've posted above, I hope you don't mind the posting of a few links to a few pages on a site that is no longer being used as a promotional tool. It is slowly turning into a resource site and will eventually be taken offline.

These below tips will solve 90% of the above issues and will make your use of FP much easier to understand why certain things happen.

Setting Up Your Page Options [pageoneresults.com]

Reveal Tags [pageoneresults.com]

Soft Returns - Hard Returns [pageoneresults.com]

[edited by: pageoneresults at 12:45 am (utc) on Dec. 21, 2004]

brotherhood of LAN

WebmasterWorld Administrator brotherhood_of_lan us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 115 posted 6:21 pm on Aug 21, 2002 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the references pageone, and the excellent heads-up and sorting out what really is and isn't a problem!

I may have came across a bit negative in the first post, but it is almost obvious now that an experienced user who has used the generations of FP program can take full advantage of what's on offer and remove the default-fluff.

One thing to note with the "preserve existing HTML". I deleted a few hard line breaks in HTML view just to fiddle around with it, and noticed that when I saved it, the line breaks I deleted were replaced with the original copy? I assume this is the sort of problems you mean with the "preserve existing HTML" unchecked. Worth noting that I never changed it from the default value....which is just that.

Also, if there was that chance of .5% where I had to do a Find and Replace routine for code within the webbot tags, I'm able to search and replace, not sure what is going on with your version, I'll assume its FP2002?.

Yes it's the XP version. The thing is, say I have a 1000 pages using a FP include.....I would "expect" to be able to copy and paste the "include" code into the box#1 and put my code in #2 and not think twice about the edit/replace function. It's just a nuance with FP. Yeah, the FP include is designed to save you time- but it increases a reliance on them that would otherwise not be used in any other prog....that's where I'm coming from :) Since the edit/replace function doesn't work....that particular "nuance" works out at 2 hours doing the same job 1000 times over (unless you use another prog of course!) that would otherwise take a program a matter of seconds.

I will have to check out all your other suggestions - lots to absorb ;) All in all, I think FP is misinterpreted to an extent - but in some cases the program simply does things that any other program would not, and can cause confusion.

Josk

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 8:27 am on Aug 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

Tip for using Frontpage: Don't!

My own horrer story... Spent an hour getting a page perfect, matching up css tags and all (hugmungous great big table). Closed FP to work on something else and then decided the page needed tweaking. Opened it in FP. AAARARRRGGHHH! Everything is bag to normal... I stopped using FP then and there.

Woz

WebmasterWorld Senior Member woz us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 8:34 am on Aug 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

>Closed FP

Um, did you save the file first? <ducks>

I've not had this type of thing happen myself.

Onya
Woz

Eric_Jarvis

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 9:37 am on Aug 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

the biggest problem with FP is inherent in it being a WYSIWYG so I'll leave that to one side, though in many ways all the other problems are symptoms of the same conceptual flaw

almost all the defaults are designed to stop a beginner completely failing to make a site work at all...I like a site to be lean and mean and achieve stability and accessibility that way...FP works by stuffing the site with fail safes...a typical example being its insistence that any image should be in the same directory as the page that calls it or a subdirectory of it...useful for a beginner...leads to loads of copies of the same image being downloaded instead of called from the cache...I never did find a way of altering that as default behaviour...there are loads of examples of this sort of over cautious default behaviour

it felt like I was fighting the software the entire time...even after a year I was still finding new obscure defaults that needed changing...if a "labour saving device" is more effort than doing the work directly then it is useless

I like software that does what it is told...I don't need it to second guess what I want...FP is not for me

Josk

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 10:45 am on Aug 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

Woz: Um, did you save the file first? <ducks>

Yes...I'm *not* that bad...

Woz

WebmasterWorld Senior Member woz us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 10:56 am on Aug 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

I figured that but thought I would ask anyway. No offense intended.

Besides, I have been know to forget to save once or twice, but then maybe I should shutup before I inciminate myself too much.

Onya
Woz

jamsy

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 1:40 pm on Aug 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

Front page is a good piece of wysiwyg software I have with success created over 80 sites for clients with tremendous results. We are even undertaking UK Government contracts now using FP2002.

Frontpage is just like a computer in so far as nine times out of ten any faults with it are caused by the user.

IMO (and my clients i hasten to add) Great yes i mean great sites can be made using FP but it all comes down to the person at the keyboard ;)

Josk

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 3:31 pm on Aug 22, 2002 (gmt 0)

hmmm...i have a tendency to forget to save when using Linux. Temporary stuff tends to get dunked into a text editor window. And then left there for a few days. Which I then forget about...

AT least Windows forces you to save stuff...

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 115 posted 12:40 am on Aug 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Discussions of FrontPage tend to degrade into anti-Microsoft rhetoric, impassioned speeches by hand-coding fundamentalists, or ignorant statements by people who have never learned to use the program or haven't touched a version newer than FP98. Why the fuss, the fervor, the teeth-gnashing, and the bashing? As Big John and Sparky used to say on their radio show, "You go to your church and I'll go to mine, but we'll all walk along together."

For what it's worth, I've been using FrontPage since version 1.1 (when I reviewed the program for BOARDWATCH), and I fell in love with it from day one. I'm an editor and writer, and I make my living from my Web site. FrontPage has made it easy for me to update, manage, and maintain a content site of nearly 3,000 pages without outside help and without having to waste time on (or get eyestrain from) hand-coding.

If you're a person who's paid by the hour to create Web pages, a text editor or HTML editor is the perfect tool.

If you're a graphic designer with a Mac mindset, Dreamweaver is likely to be your cup of tea.

But for an editor/writer/publisher who's primarily interested in creating and maintaining "evergreen" content (as I am), it's hard to imagine a more efficient tool than FrontPage. It does the job, it doesn't get in the way, and it helps me earn a living without hiring guys like you. :-)

lioness

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 1:25 am on Aug 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

Idiotgirl wrote:
I've lost track of how many times it wants to reference images on your hard drive in the code C:// blah blah - and I never did figure out why. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. And it's sneaky about it, too!

I've found that if you do a Save in the Normal mode, this is not a problem. It's when you don't save in Normal mode and go to HTML mode, that you see FP trying to reference images on your hard drive.

akogo

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:10 am on Aug 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

FrontPage has made it easy for me to update, manage, and maintain a content site of nearly 3,000 pages without outside help and without having to waste time on (or get eyestrain from) hand-coding.

An single individual can build a 3,000+ page (static) site and manage it just as easily without FrontPage... by buiding it with CSS, SSI and templates... no time wasted, no eyestrain either. All they need is a text editor with copy, paste, replace functions and a browser.

anti-Microsoft

???? Not at all... XP is fantastic! So is Word and Excel!

never learned to use the program

True, but I'm glad I didn't!

pageoneresults

WebmasterWorld Senior Member pageoneresults us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 115 posted 5:01 am on Aug 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

A single individual can build a 3,000+ page (dynamic) site and manage it just as easily with FrontPage... by buiding it with CSS, FrontPage Includes and templates... no time wasted, no eyestrain either. All they need is a copy of FrontPage, could be FP97 for that matter. I think I started with it when it was 1.0?

Does your text editor give you Normal, HTML View, Preview Mode? Can you do link verification on the fly? Can you move an include that is linked to 1,000 pages and have it update all references in the site within a few minutes?

Does your text editor give you a dropdown menu of all your css styles? Can you Ctrl + / and view your html tags while you are in normal mode? Can you set up your page preferences for how the html is to be formatted? XML?

Mind you, this is just a small sampling of what FP2002 has to offer. I've been working the same way with all versions and nothing has really changed. They added some cool features to help streamline the process along the way.

I've seen the mess that FP can produce and agree with all of you that it has its problems. But, if you are not the savvy one in coding html, but know the basics along with css, FrontPage can be a powerhouse. I can prove that! ;)

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 115 posted 4:09 pm on Aug 25, 2002 (gmt 0)

I've seen the mess that FP can produce and agree with all of you that it has its problems.

The good news is that most of the reported problems are gone in FP 2002. FrontPage has improved steadily with each version, and FP2002 is a reliable, mature product that works perfectly 99% of the time.

But, if you are not the savvy one in coding html, but know the basics along with css, FrontPage can be a powerhouse. I can prove that!

Even if you know how to code HTML (as I do), why bother? When Tim Berners-Lee invented the Web, he envisioned WYSIWYG editors that would code behind the scenes like word processors. That's good enough for me. :-) I'm always amused by the idea that real Web professionals should code by hand. That's like saying that real graphic designers should hand-code PostScript files instead of using Quark XPress or Pagemaker.

As for dynamically generated sites (mentioned elsewhere in this thread), they may be worthwhile if you're building a site from scratch, but if--like me--you have legacy content that goes back to 1996, it's far more efficient to maintain, manage, and expand it in FronPage than to reinvent the wheel.

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