|Why is Yahoo getting more submissions that usual?|
| 1:24 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
With the change in Yahoo, why are they receiving more submissions than normal?
| 3:01 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Yahoo people are smart :)
or do search for other SEO words. You will see that Yahoo is doing their advertisement before anything else.
| 3:20 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
You will see that Yahoo is doing their advertisement before anything else.
Not under my search terms.
| 3:22 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
All 50 listings I have are gone. You can drill down into their directory but the search terms I need listed are coming from GOOGLE...sort of.
| 3:50 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
The numbers are still pretty high, much higher than I would've expected.
Could it be that the "mainstream" public doesn't understand the change and the implications of the change? Why do because this is our line of work, but do others understand?
I'll keep watching the numbers..but I wonder if others won't catch on and this turns out to be an absolutely brilliant move on Yahoo's part.
| 3:59 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
If you just read webmaster forums like this you get a highly slanted take on the latest Y! changes. While a significant number of people who register domains at Y! directory also read these forums, the vast majority do not. Towhit - the latest Y! downgrading of the exposure of its directory got very little mainstream press, unlike the last Google change, and when it did it hardly mentioned any loss of value for the 300 bucks.
This small vocal minority have a right to discuss of course, but they do not represent in any way the overall profile of Y! express users. Usually only the ones who optimized as well, and for high revenue generating sites.
We also see every month in the G! updates that those who have been hit post a lot, but later we find that most of the silent majority just shut up - after all the latter probably hadn't spent 90% of their waking hours for the month before optimizing and tweaking their pages for a doubtful gain, given update histories. The latest G! update after almost 2 weeks now seems not as bad as the 6 pages posted in the update thread in the 48 hours after.
From what I can see...
1. You still get the nice PR boost for Google, which is why many new sites list in Y!
2. More people may now use Y! search, and smarter people at that, increasing viewership of all listings.. The spammed out Y! directory as their default search was losing viewers to Google fast.
3. You still get in the directory. No matter that it is not the default search, it is used as a feed for other search engines, gets on the "new sites" feed which many other Search engines crawl and many other "hidden" but sgnificant benefits.
4. You can still get affiliate and highly commercial sites into Y! directory that will not pass muster in Google, (becauses of its algos that favour link/page/site popularity), or indeed many other free submission search ehgine index.
5. You get a nice red arrow on your listing which does intuitively siggest to casual users that your listing is more "important".
6. In some specific areas, Y directory express sites are still given a leg up over Google results. Adult sites i think are one, and I think there may be others too.
From what i could see many of the most vocal complainers (but certainly not all of the less strident commentators) were people who had cottoned on to a way to optimize for Y! that could bring them thousands in revenue for a then relatively small fee. Basically they were sites that would have a hard time ranking in the non commercial mainstream indexes (Google mainly).However their time was always numbered, as Y!'s index was losing credibility fast with the long term result of losing visitors fast. A fast surprising death rather than a long term slow painful one.
This may well start to imporve the quality of the Y! directory, though i still doubt that the directory is not so important to Y! stratically now, by discouraging the group of multi-keyword-domain affiliate/commercial/redirect domains that had caused its fall from grace. This may well encourage sites that favour content rather than SEO as their raison d'etre to now submit, as they will be less likely to be listed under direct marketing or even SPAM listings.
I really dont predict that we will get anything even resembling the massive fall in submissions that the small minority are expecting/hoping.
[edited by: chiyo at 4:12 am (utc) on Oct. 20, 2002]
| 4:00 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Could it be that many people here don't understand the increased importance of the directory now?
| 4:05 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
I have very good GOOGLE rankings but lost over 200,000 hits a month from the Yahoo change.
Every term and competitor of mine is gone. I don't understand the alogorytm at all.
| 4:42 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
sticky mail me and I'll help you out.
| 7:47 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
what if we have to wait another google update then yahoo lsiting will get pr boost?to compensate for traffic loss that they took away when setting google web results as default display. maybe part of contract :)
| 8:03 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
but that would defeat the purpose JonB!
The problem with the Y! directory is that it IS pay for review (and usually indexing as reviewers were fairly easy on the content of sites unless it was non existant, duplicate, or obvious spam - they were mainly interested in side topics like company name in title, address on page, and viewable in netscape! ). This meant that a lot of sites could get in that would not normally rank well with google's popularity-based and content-friendly ranking system.
At best it can speed up indexing of useful new sites. At worst it can give a boost to unpopular, possibly opportunistic, and highly sales oriented sites, thereby reducing the quality of the Google rankings if they put too much credence on Y! directory listings. Expecially since the rush of new commercial sites to use Y! express to get (sometimes suspect) sites listed.
| 8:21 am on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Right now it's just before the holiday heavy traffic season, too. A lot of people have no idea where listings come from or who supplies what, there could be many just hoping for good traffic for holiday sales. Traffic for some sites skyrockets in November, some are already starting to in October.
| 7:21 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Chiyo, I agree with you 100%.
So the question is - is it still worthwhile for low-content, commercial sites to submit to the directory?
I personally don't see much of a PR boost from a Yahoo submission. It helps, but it's not as valuable as a link from DMOZ. I have sites that are not in Yahoo that have ranked very well in Google. In fact, in the past we used to get PR FIRST and then submit to Yahoo because I knew we'd be ranking in the next Yahoo update - it always worked. So I'm not one of those who argues for PR value of a Yahoo listing.
"You can still get affiliate and highly commercial sites into Y! directory that will not pass muster in Google "
But what's the point if no one will find them? Yeah, I know a few people will use the directory or use the category link, but not many I'm sure. Plus you have to be listed in the right category for that to work.
| 7:59 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
>>I have sites that are not in Yahoo that have ranked very well in Google.
Ditto, and I've talked two people out of a Yahoo submission recently. One backed off right away. The other I literally had to constantly fight tooth and nail with since June until a couple of weeks ago, and boy is she glad she didn't now.
>>I'm not one of those who argues for PR value of a Yahoo listing.
And I listen to you about Yahoo, and will continue to. $299 for a permanent listing would be one thing - if the page title stayed how we want it, but $299 per annum for the average ecom doesn't show signs of showing enough of a return.
>>>"You can still get affiliate and highly commercial sites into Y! directory that will not pass muster in Google "<<<
You just have to make them pass muster for Google.
| 8:12 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
>>Why is Yahoo getting more submissions that usual?<<
No one here has idea how many submissions Y! is getting.
The editors may have seen the "writing on the wall" and have begun to edit faster/"better". If the value of a directory listing diminishes, it has to follow that the number of submissions/editors will eventually decline.
| 9:07 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
"No one knows how many listings Yahoo receives."
You can tell how many listings were accepted and that will give you a good idea.
"It helps, but it's not as valuable as a link from DMOZ."
I have three dmoz listings in different categories and my PR stays the same.
| 9:20 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
>three dmoz listings in different categories and my PR stays the same.
alex, you can't tell by toolbar PR, it's inexact. It's like "Under $6.00" can be $5.99 or 5.49 or 5.10 - the toolbar just says 5/10, a site can start at 5.1 and move up to 5.3 then 5.4 - it still looks the same.
It's my feeling that DMOZ and Yahoo listings aren't enough now, irrespective of PR. It seems like more links are needed than those few for ranking well, and a well optimized site with no directory listings equal in optimization quality to another with ODP & Yahoo but with more unique links can possibly do better. PR isn't the only ingredient for ranking well.
But this isn't about ODP and PR, we're speculating about the potential value of Yahoo Directory listings, whether or not submissions are up and if so, why.
I really believe it can be seasonal to some degree. It's a little late in the season, but people are swarming now to have their sites optimized, wanting the holiday sales, so it stands to reason there would be a directory increase.
>So the question is - is it still worthwhile for low-content, commercial sites to submit to the directory?
Hopefully we'll know more after the next Google update, or see what develops over the next several weeks.
| 10:01 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
"PR isn't the only ingredient for ranking well."
I realize this. ALL my rankings on GOOGLE go from #3 one month to #15 the next month. This is very consistent and I am not sure why.
What I am wonering is how to achieve better rankings on Yahoo through their ditectory.
| 10:47 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
$299 is less than a buck a day. I pay seventy cents a click to ad words and would have to pay about ten dollars a click to Overture. Yesterday I got twelve clicks from the Yahoo directory page.
Duh... the Yahoo directory is a far better deal. I don't understand this complaining. If you have a non-commercial site, submit free. If you have a business site and use Ad words or Overture, look to see how many clicks you get from the directory. Any number greater than zero means at WORST you are paying .90 for a click. Any number greater than 20 is less than a nickel a click and should be seen as a pure no-brainer good thing.
If you get absolute zero clicks from the directory then the page rank alone isn't likely to be worth it, but ten clicks a day plus page rank makes the $299 an obvious bargain compared to what else is out there.
| 11:09 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
When Yahoo is responsible for about 50% of the searches on the internet and you lose 200,000 visitors a month and there is NO way to fix the lost traffic, people get upset. You paid for one thing and got another. Also, you get to choose your keywords on Overture and GOOGLE. Yahoo will butcher a listing.
I had a listing that says carries name brand products. What do I sell?
| 11:40 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
|5. You get a nice red arrow on your listing which does intuitively siggest to casual users that your listing is more "important". |
Yeah, there's a downside to that one, however. The red arrow points to text saying "More sites about..." whatever your directory category is, providing users an easy detour away from ever visiting your site.
| 11:48 pm on Oct 20, 2002 (gmt 0)|
whatever your directory category is, providing users an easy detour away from ever visiting your site.
I can't figure out why some of my directory listings show up and others do not.
The people paying $1.00 a click on GOOGLE and $3.00 or more on Overture should be the ones that are the most upset.
| 6:22 am on Oct 21, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Good point SteveB, but I think it depends on the nature of your site and the nature of your business.
For people who work with many sites, it adds up to submit each one to Yahoo.
In the past, I knew I could get 1 out of 3 sites to rank for its keywords in the SERP, regardless of the phrase I was targetting. The traffic was enormous, especially on the one-word keywords. It was VERY MUCH worth the investment.
Now, however, those listings will be buried and will maybe get 1/15th of the traffic they'd receive in the past.
To be honest, I'd much rather focus on ways of "making" the sites work for Google, like Marcia said, and using the $299 saved per SITE to search for others way of finding traffic.
I, for one, am really looking to diversify.
Also, given the rumors that Yahoo may also dispaly results from other engines such as Fast or Ink, I may as well pay for a few pages there, and work Google, instead of throwing the money into a submission that will generate very little traffic, especially for competitive phrases.
I also agree 100% with Marcia about the impact of the holidays, it's beginning to hit people that Christmas is here and they're going to be looking for ways to capitalize. I have a site optimized for christmas keywords, and it's getting and average of 300 hits a day for people searching specifically for Christmas related gifts & stuff. Definitely a factor.
| 11:17 am on Oct 21, 2002 (gmt 0)|
"providing users an easy detour away from ever visiting your site."
This would be a concern if you were the only one this happened to. Instead, you have all your competitors getting the same clicks taking people to the directory page, which again makes it a MUST to be listed there, far more than before. (Note the difference between directory search results and the category directory page itself.)
The red arrow is awesome.
The key point though remains that even if it isn't as good a deal as it was for you before, as long as you get an appropriate number of clicks from the directory page, it makes sense to be there.
| 11:30 am on Oct 21, 2002 (gmt 0)|
You are not getting the appropriate number of clicks and your description is going to reflect whether someone drills down into the once again alphabetical and sponsor heavy directory.
| 2:54 pm on Oct 21, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Wow. It must be a “slanted” personal view that created your post. Sorry, but it is so full of logical holes, I’m not sure where to start. However, I feel compelled to reply lest anyone actually believe you - and it looks as though some already are. BTW, let me say that the recent changes both in the October Google update, and the subsequent Yahoo! shuffle had only a slight (positive) effect on our operations.
You said: “While a significant number of people who register domains at Y! directory also read these forums, the vast majority do not. Towhit - the latest Y! downgrading of the exposure of its directory got very little mainstream press, unlike the last Google change, and when it did it hardly mentioned any loss of value for the 300 bucks. This small vocal minority have a right to discuss of course, but they do not represent in any way the overall profile of Y! express users. Usually only the ones who optimized as well, and for high revenue generating sites. “
Duh! Oh really? It’s not even been two weeks. We look at this most everyday. It goes without saying that once people realize that they can be in the Yahoo! listings, with the SAME result placement, for FREE, AND without an inane description like “offers widgets”, people will stop paying. It’ll just take some time to trickle down. And most people who have a website nowadays either do their own research on how to rank better, or hire one of the people who hang out in these forums.
But you cite six reasons why people will still use Yahoo!:
“1. You still get the nice PR boost for Google, which is why many new sites list in Y!”
Being one of twenty sites on a PR4 (if you’re lucky) or less page won’t do much for you, my friend.
“2. More people may now use Y! search, and smarter people at that, increasing viewership of all listings. The spammed out Y! directory as their default search was losing viewers to Google fast. “
Smarter people? I would assume that smarter people will do as I now do :-) and simply use Google for searches. Why on earth would I wait for all those banners to load, just to get the same results? Remember, those sites with a red arrow in the new Yahoo! aren’t uniquely in Yahoo – they’re ALL in Google too, and often rank as well or better.
“3. You still get in the directory. No matter that it is not the default search, it is used as a feed for other search engines, gets on the "new sites" feed which many other Search engines crawl and many other "hidden" but sgnificant benefits. “
New sites feed? Hidden benefits? Would you care to share these ideas with the rest of the class? :-)
”4. You can still get affiliate and highly commercial sites into Y! directory that will not pass muster in Google, (becauses of its algos that favour link/page/site popularity), or indeed many other free submission search ehgine index.”
I have never seen ANYONE feel the need to have 300 interlinking websites in Yahoo! Nor, when people have to shell out 300 bucks a shot, do we see websites such as widgetland-hotels.com, widgetland-maps.com, widgetland-restaurants.com, widgetland-drinking-fountains.com, etc., etc all interlinked. For a number of competitive keywords, I have found the same company owning eight of the top ten listings in Google because 8 of their 50 sites made it to the top. But these companies do NOT submit 50 sites to Yahoo because it’s not worth the risk that they don’t get the same results. Thus, I beg to differ. I can get all the sites I want into Google and, with a little studying of the results and some help from WebmasterWorld, some of them may do well. And while I’ll admit the Yahoo! directory had similar spam problems, it wasn’t because of their model. Well, maybe it was. Maybe the cost of full-time, hired human editors was unviable from the start. At least the Yahoo! editors could spot hidden text! And at least ALL spam would get through, as opposed to the two or three favoured spam sites of a corrupt, vested ODP editor.
5. You get a nice red arrow on your listing which does intuitively siggest to casual users that your listing is more "important".
The arrow does attract attention to the long-neglected categories. And it does look nice, too. Gotta go with you on that one.
“6. In some specific areas, Y directory express sites are still given a leg up over Google results. Adult sites i think are one, and I think there may be others too. “
You don’t have any idea on this, do you now. :-)
Now, if this is the end step for Yahoo!, do not be deceived. It WILL result in submissions dropping precipitously as people slowly, then more quickly, figure it out. These things take a bit of time. What would be better, I think, is the following:
Yahoo! also reaches an agreement to use Inktomi and/or Fast results to a similar degree as the Google deal, and then combining all three with the Yahoo directory applies its OWN very simplified algo to it, perhaps simply boosting their own directory results a bit, perhaps not. Then, one would have a reason to search WITH and sumbit TO Yahoo! You see, the trick is this. It’s EASY to find sites that do well in Google that are doing well in the new Yahoo! But it’s not so easy to find sites that do well in the directory, that also do well in the new Yahoo! web search results. So why waste money? And if you don’t think there’s a lot of SEO guys that are, as we speak, explaining to their hundreds of high-ranking, honest clients why they’ve fallen, then just wait and see. The Mom and Pops will follow shortly. But if Yahoo! does what I think above, or a variation, all bets are off. Hell, I might even submit again then!
The Last Word: It seems to be that these companies – Yahoo! and Google – might save themselves a lot of grief and simply take the top ten or fifteen results for a selected number of highly spammed cats - real estate, SEO, and hotel reservation companies pop into mind - and RANDOMLY SHUFFLE the results. Same for the next group of ten or fifteen and so on. Now, isn’t that a nice idea for users, search engines/directories, and optimizers?
[edited by: Marcia at 10:37 pm (utc) on Oct. 21, 2002]
[edit reason] adjustment for duplicate content [/edit]
| 10:05 pm on Oct 21, 2002 (gmt 0)|
Your points are very valid and well taken.
However, you could've gotten the same points across with a different, more respectful tone. Just like you, Chiyo was sharing her opinions and viewpoint.
Please rememeber the nature of this board - it's a place for people to share ideas, viewpoints, ask questions and share information. It's implicitly agreed by everyone that reads the board that they have to apply their own "filters" to the information.
I personally agree with most of what Chiyo has shared and would've felt a bit slighted had your response been directed at me. I hope you understand.
| 10:54 pm on Oct 21, 2002 (gmt 0)|
alex, it's because of the change that we're trying to figure out whether it's still worth paying $299 for submission. As far as concerning sites already in there, there can't be any final estimate of the effect until we see where it all goes in the next few months.
And a lot has to depend on perspective, of which there are many. A gorgeous ecommerce site that's all graphics with bad navigation, frames, all design friendly and dynamite for conversion but not search engine friendly that relied heavily on Yahoo has to have felt it because they're not Google-friendly. Some sites have to rely solely on paid listings of all kinds and always will.
There are some large manufacturers' product sites that must have felt it - the kind that sell a lot through retail stores and websites that sell their products. They're big and dynamic, and their online distribution outlets that are small and simple could have an even greater advantage now.
Same with high end sites. Fancy designers who do bad sites from a search-engine friendly perspective are the best friends the SEO industry can ever have, especially those who know Google.
Non- or primarily non-commercial sites will no doubt have a different perspective, since the goals and methods and business model (or lack thereof) will naturally generate a different experience.
We can't analyze why one particular individual site experiences something, we have to look at the different groupings and common characteristics and effects they experience by which type they are and which group they fall into.
| 2:37 am on Oct 22, 2002 (gmt 0)|
The new feeds pages from Y! are a list of new sites added to the Y! directory daily. Google spiders these daily and so do many other search engine robots, as well as journalists and the press. They also pop up in many other "new sites" listings. For example new sites in my keywords used to get listed on my My Yahoo! page when i used it a year back. These are only some example of how the "new site" listings are used by the Web as a whole, but multiply it by many such instances, and it all adds up. My feeling is that they are highly respected by various players and its highly useful for promotion, but an "unknown benefit" to many, including yourself. That's why I offerred the info.
|You don’t have any idea on this, do you now. :-) |
If i didnt have any idea i wouldnt have posted it. In other threads here you can see people saying that certain keywords are not returning pure G! results but are more influenced by the directory. I based my comments on this evidence.
My original views stand for themselves. Some of your rejoinders seem unrelated to the point(s) you are addressing; some imho are just incorrect. Your rejoinder to my point that WebmasterWorld posts are not representative of Y! express users themselves does not offer any evidence that that is not the case.. but spirals off into a curious rant about something else entirely, almost providing further evidence for the point!
Personally i cant see any logical holes, apart from making some assumptions on evidence as we must all do as we dont know what SE's are really doing and are just, like Plato, making inferences from shadows on the cave wall. The shadows reflect reality, but the reality we construct from them is based on on our perspective, experience, and goals, as Marcia so well described earlier.
I agree with you strongly that randomizing and rotating results of roughly equal relevance is a great idea, and that Y! using results from other search engines is not only a great idea but also highly likely. However these suggestions (which have already been made elsewhere in WebmasterWorld) are tangential to your response to my post.