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Black Wednesday - Oct. 9 2002
This will be a day that all Yahoo! Express subscribers will remember...
ckern




msg:833890
 5:56 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

Black Wednesday - Oct 9 2002

Today we will always remember as the day that Yahoo! screwed over all of it's loyal Yahoo! Express subscribers.

Question is: Will we ever be able to optimize our sites for Yahoo again?

Answer: Only time will tell. But, in the meantime what do you all think we should do about going about optimizing for Yahoo once again.

 

cjtripnewton




msg:833891
 12:26 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

Optimize for Google.

HyperGeek




msg:833892
 2:13 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

This latest Yahoo! shift isn't news. Only a few few people seemed to catch MY post a week or so ago...

[webmasterworld.com...]

gsmitchell




msg:833893
 9:00 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

hypergeek,

I agree that we all knew there were going to be changes. But did anyone imagine that Yahoo would basically tell the pay for inclusion people you don't matter when they switched the default search to web results? I know I am not going to pay the $300 to Yahoo again. I don't see the ROI

Hunter




msg:833894
 9:03 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

Let's face it, life is hard, we all know that.

Complain, moan, groan, then optimize for Google.

gsmitchell




msg:833895
 9:19 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hunter,

I agree with you that life is hard. But, how many times has GoogleGuy mentioned to not put all of your eggs in 1 basket? That is why I paid the $300 in hopes of being included in Yahoo and my results to be on the 1st page. Now with this change if you want traffic you have no choice but to put all of your eggs in 1 basket! And what if you are in a very competitve category and no matter how much SEO you do you can get no higher then the top 40?

[edited by: gsmitchell at 9:27 pm (utc) on Oct. 10, 2002]

DrCool




msg:833896
 9:21 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

Exactly Hunter. I had some great Yahoo listings. I was top 5 for nearly every major keyword for most of my sites. That has gone bye-bye. I spent a couple hours yesterday sulking over it but realized that wasn't getting me anywhere. I came in this morning and started looking for sites that would link to me. Within an hour I had 4 relevant sites with relatively high PRs linking to many of my sites. A few more days of that and my Google results will probably be outperforming my Yahoo listings. I was getting complacent with my Yahoo listings and neglected other areas of optimization for my sites. This kind of kicked me in the rear and woke me up.

Many of you here have fallen. It is time to get up, dust yourself off, and move forward. We will probably be going through the same thing in a year or two when something else like this happens. It has happened before (Black Monday) and will happen again.

[edited by: DrCool at 9:23 pm (utc) on Oct. 10, 2002]

littleman




msg:833897
 9:23 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

I'm with hunter on this. Heck, I just laid out $300 for a y! submission a couple of days ago.

Just keep in mind that the search engines never will have your best interest at heart, they never did and never will care about you -- that is just the way it is.

SEOs will always adapt, that is the nature of the game.

Search engines are like cows, you just take what you could from them until they head to the slaughter house -- and then you hopefully get a nice steak.

hazardtomyself




msg:833898
 11:07 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

Black Indeed!

The one directory we all pretty much knew where we stood or would stand in the rankings...shot to hell. What a blow to those who assist in delivering relevant information. No one likes to loose control.

bobothecat




msg:833899
 11:19 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

"Search engines are like cows, you just take what you could from them until they head to the slaughter house -- and then you hopefully get a nice steak."

... and you `milk' them for all you can. :)

hmpphf




msg:833900
 11:31 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

I haven't herd of search engines being described like that before.

jeremy goodrich




msg:833901
 11:39 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

That is a great metaphor.

Thinking about all the changes that happen in the industry and each business when they are at the top of their game (market share and search wise) they all seem to lose it in the end.

Honestly, this year up to this point hasn't been good for those who liked to pay Yahoo! money - now it goes elsewhere. Oops for them.

I know that I'm thinking, $299 annually can be used to buy a lot more than just Yahoo now...:)

jbage007




msg:833902
 11:39 pm on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

**** yahoo.

Actually I was days away from paying for yahoo directory.

Thank goodness I waited.

Some so called SEO gurus are sucking MAJOR eggs these days, for sure.

pmac




msg:833903
 1:16 am on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

I for one will step right up when it's time to renew. Again, every market is different, and if you feel you can make a ROI for your $300, you will throw it down. For me, It's still a no brainer.

feeder




msg:833904
 1:17 am on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

Agreed. Still worth it.

gsmitchell




msg:833905
 1:28 am on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

I don't see how the $300 is worth it. I know I am not going to renew. I can definitly find other uses for my $300.

richlowe




msg:833906
 3:57 am on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

Sorry, I must have missed something. What happened to Yahoo express?

Richard Lowe

digitalghost




msg:833907
 4:24 am on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

I have a few numbers, nothing scientific but hey, they are numbers. Of the 36 emails I received today regarding the changes at Yahoo!:

35 will renew. Significant? Maybe, but many still feel that Yahoo! PR is good for something other than tumbleweed sales.

17 are angry about the change but still feel the link is worthwhile.
Of the 17 that are angry, 15 of them are angry only because they weren't notified.

Of the group of 17, 5 of them feel that Yahoo! should lower the cost of their review, however all of them will renew at the current price if necessary. Of the entire group, only 6 of them feel that Yahoo should lower their price.

Mitigating factor: Nearly all of them are still represented well by the new Yahoo! look. 2 of them dropped slightly for their pet phrases but only slightly.

Other somewhat related factors:

When the Google algo changed after the last index, I had 409 emails in my box in 24 hours. Compared to 36 today about Yahoo! so the changes at Yahoo! aren't perceived to be as drastic as the ones Google made, at least for my clients.

The majority of my clients that suffered a dip in rankings on Google for their pet phrases have since noticed an increase in traffic for a broader range of phrases. In effect, some of them lost a few positions for a few phrases, (the phrases most heavily optimized for) but had ratings on secondary phrases rise. Since Yahoo! now mirrors Google I expect that this boost in traffic will only increase for those sites that optimized for a broad range of relevant phrases rather than trying to slam-dunk 5 or 10 phrases.

From the group of 36 clients that wrote me, all of them questioned how the changes were made at Yahoo! but not one of them thinks it's time to give up on Yahoo! just yet.

All of those 36 clients at one time or another got sick of hearing me tell them to, "develop more content, make sure it is relevant and then develop some more."

Of the 4 emails I received today from prospective clients 3 of them were concerned with the loss of traffic from Yahoo!.

Anyone else have some numbers for us to crunch? Conjecture makes me nervous, numbers give me warm fuzzies. ;)

Hunter




msg:833908
 7:05 am on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

gsmitchell,

>how many times has GoogleGuy mentioned to not put all of your eggs in 1 basket?

Well he's right, we should all listen to that advice. You may not have meant to (put all of your eggs in 1 basket) and I sympathize with your situation, but I think you would agree (if you give it some more thought) that you were putting too many of your eggs in the Yahoo basket.

>Now with this change if you want traffic you have no choice but to put all of your eggs in 1 basket!

Not true, Web traffic is not controlled by Google and web traffic generation is not limited to search engines. Google may be the largest % of your se traffic, they may not be. If they are, then exploit it. If you want them to be, then exploit it. That's what the traffic game is about.

>And what if you are in a very competitive category and no matter how much SEO you do you can get no higher then the top 40?

Then you need to get creative and work even harder. The good news is that you have everything you need to get the job done right here, it's up to you how you use it.

LucyGrrl




msg:833909
 1:41 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

DrCool wrote... "Within an hour I had 4 relevant sites with relatively high PRs linking to many of my sites. A few more days of that and my Google results will probably be outperforming my Yahoo listings."

So, you found sites that will put your link on their pages. Do you then have to put their link on your pages? I see so many of these webrings that you can join for free but you then have to put their link on your pages. This would require me then to have a LINKS page on my site. Is this what you do?

As you can tell, I am new at SEO.

fom2001uk




msg:833910
 2:05 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

Noooooooooooooooooooooo !

I can't believe this. All that work gone into researching keywords for Yahoo, and getting the sites registered, AND paying the money

ALL down the toilet.

I've checked dozens of phrases we used to be top ranked for, now they're nowhere to be seen. Buried under a pile of ****ing Google ****.

It doesn't console me that the original rankings are still there if you search under DIRECTORY. That's not the default option, and searchers aren't going to choose that.

**** Google and **** Yahoo for keeping them where they are !

I can see some legal challenges coming Yahoo's way. They're sitting on a lot of BizExpress money that's been taken under false pretences.

Can't believe there hasn't been a bigger outcry over this. Do you like throwing money away?

Brad




msg:833911
 2:13 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hunter,

Neilsen WebReach ratings put Yahoo, GG, and AOL together at 76.2%, Netscape ads another 4.5%. All served by Google.

Besides MSN there is not a lot of options on baskets to diversify into. And then you better have deep pockets.

The options just are not there.

gsmitchell




msg:833912
 2:40 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>>Well he's right, we should all listen to that advice. You may not have meant to (put all of your eggs in 1 basket) and I sympathize with your situation, but I think you would agree (if you give it some more thought) that you were putting too many of your eggs in the Yahoo basket. >>>

Hunter,

I don't want or need your sympathy but I definitly wasn't putting too many eggs in the Yahoo basket. I spent money to be included in MSN,Ask Jeeves, AV,Lycos etc... and thanks to some time I spent I am able to rank in the top 20 for several keywords. I then spent money on a hope to be included in the Yahoo directory. And when I was I was ranked in the top 3 for a majority of my keywords. I have also spent time working on getting a better ranking in Google but so far I have only acheived top 40 rankings for some of my keywords. So tell me how were all of my eggs in 1 basket?

>>>>Now with this change if you want traffic you have no choice but to put all of your eggs in 1 basket! Not true, Web traffic is not controlled by Google and web traffic generation is not limited to search engines. Google may be the largest % of your se traffic, they may not be. If they are, then exploit it. If you want them to be, then exploit it. That's what the traffic game is about. >>> Do you not realize that Google accounts for more then 75% of all traffic? So tell me how web traffic is not controlled by Google?

>And what if you are in a very competitive category and no matter how much SEO you do you can get no higher then the top 40?

Then you need to get creative and work even harder. The good news is that you have everything you need to get the job done right here, it's up to you how you use it.>>

Work Harder, obviously you don't run a small business of your own! If you did you would realize that there is no way to work harder. You are already working 15-18 hour days and you do need to have a family life as well as find some time for sleep! What Yahoo has done is Kill Mr Small pockets and helped Mr Big Pockets out! All Mr Big Pockets has to do now is spend his thousands of dollars optimising for Google and he wins. Mr small pockets can't afford to nor does he have the time or expertise to do so!

davaddavad




msg:833913
 3:21 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

I tend to agree with gsmitchell about the small getting run over again. We payed for a review they gave us one there wasnt any guarantee given so they are really liable for anything. They took our
money and still are. So is it worth 300 to pay yahoo who owns 10% of google to get a slightly better pr on google? Why pay for a human review with no guarantees, no results cause they are coming from ov or google not yahoo. so if you want to buy some legal google pagerank at the only acceptable pagerank store then today is the day to buy. Me i am going to brush up on solid link building for now. jmho

DrCool




msg:833914
 3:50 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

LucyGrrl: A lot of the sites that are linking to me requested a link back. Some of them I have on a links page and some others I put on my index page and other high traffic pages on my site. Pages with high PR usually want a link on your index page and if their PR is high enough (usually 1 or 2 above mine) I have no problem doing that.

brass monkey




msg:833915
 5:26 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

It is a tough break and a lot of people will suffer initially. Regarding the $300 renewal fee. I will probably pay the fees and recommend that my clients pay the fees as well.

Yahoo category affects page rank. Now that Yahoo has defaulted to Google, my first instinct was no f-ing way I will pay. But after thinking about it, it still has an effect on your PR and on top of everything else, this will not go away. Remember that Yahoo owns part of Google, therefore for both companies sake, they will want to continue to whatever will help both companied grow.

A positive here is that a lot of my clients do PPC and at least the sponsor matches have not been removed (and hopefully that won't change)...

BrAsS mOnKeY

JamesR




msg:833916
 5:32 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

>I can see some legal challenges coming Yahoo's way. They're sitting on a lot of BizExpress money that's been taken under false pretences.

If you read what you are getting through BizExpress you will realize that Yahoo promises nothing, not even inclusion into the directory. How could they possibly come under legal attack?

Vote with your wallets, getting into the Yahoo directory is less important now.

ckern




msg:833917
 6:41 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

JamesR: Although Yahoo with Business Express does not state that you will be accepted into the directory. It is the whole implied promise that is behind it.

Simply, if you get into the yahoo directory, you will have the chance to improve your rankings within the Yahoo Search Engine.

It does not matter what exactly the Business Express contact states, it is what "Common Knowledge/Fact" that the whole idea of Business Express and the Directory has built for itself ever since Yahoo's Inception.

There is room for Legal Challenges. Yes Yahoo never promised a Directory listing. Although, why would people submit there sites to Yahoo for 300 bucks if there was not a meaning behind being a part of the Directory.

The issue is not getting accepted to Yahoo Directory. The issue is that Yahoo has unethically abandoned the subscribers to there Directory. Those subscribers that have built Yahoo from the ground up! And now they turn and stab us in the back.

gsmitchell




msg:833918
 7:22 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

>>>It does not matter what exactly the Business Express contact states, it is what "Common Knowledge/Fact" that the whole idea of Business Express and the Directory has built for itself ever since Yahoo's Inception<<<

Yes it does matter what the business contract states. In legal terms there is no such thing as common knowledge/fact. Whatever is what is stated in black and white is what matters in a court of law!

Believe me I feel what Yahoo did is crap! They have pretty much made it impossible for Mr small market to compete. And the way they did it by still accepting money the day of is rather crappy. If anyone thinks that Mr Big Market is not going to get a clue and spend their money on SEO for Google they are fooling themselves. All we can do is complain to Yahoo (there are more small companies then big ones!) try and get our money back, andnot renew

Hunter




msg:833919
 9:30 pm on Oct 11, 2002 (gmt 0)

gsmitchell

> I don't want or need your sympathy

Ok, consider it over.

> Do you not realize that Google accounts for more then 75% of all traffic?

Yes I do, that's why I have optimized for them as well as Yahoo. I had top rankings on Yahoo as well as Google before the change over. I still Do.

> Work Harder, obviously you don't run a small business of your own!

I do indeed, 3 to be exact. 3 completely different industries, 2 of them very highly competitive and all of them have top rankings.

> If you did you would realize that there is no way to work harder. You are already working 15-18 hour days and you do need to have a family life as well as find some time for sleep!

15-18 hour days, you've got that right. As for sleep: 24-18 = 6 hours of sleep. At this point I would sympathize again with you because I do not have children, but I dropped the sympathy at your request.

>All Mr. Big Pockets has to do now is spend his thousands of dollars optimizing for Google and he wins.

I spend so little on my sites it's incredible. How? I do all the work myself, all of it.

>Mr. small pockets can't afford to nor does he have the time or expertise to do so!

I am a "Mr. small pockets". I use my time wisely and I have gained the
expertise to do so. You could too.

This 44 message thread spans 2 pages: 44 ( [1] 2 > >
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