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This 36 message thread spans 2 pages: 36 ( [1] 2 > >     
Will Yahoo drop your pages if you rank too high
for free and running adsense
dauction




msg:836739
 4:59 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

The past 2 years I moved up from the backwoods to 12th out of 90 million ... sending google and it's advertisers some damn nice traffic ..

After finally reaching this point it looks like I've been banned to the backwoods ..nothing new at all except a 301 .htacess from www to non www in late sept

Could Yahoo be incorporating a variable that bans certain sites after they reach a certain rank and sending traffic that in actuallity is profiting google ..

or is parinoia creeping in and in reality yahoo cant handle a 301 correctly?

Cant get a reply from Y

That's the worst part..if something is wrong with the site just tell us so it can be fixed ..

 

martinibuster




msg:836740
 7:02 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Sounds like paranoia. Give it another month and see what happens. Meanwhile you might have to do some soul searching on that site to see if there are things on it that won't pass a hand check.

If your site is still ranking (in the backwoods), then that's a good sign. You haven't been banned. There might be something about the site that needs improvement. It's up to you to find what that may be.

Longhaired Genius




msg:836741
 7:34 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

In my experience, Yahoo may remove your link if you get onto the first page for a profitable keyword.

Here's a thread about the phenomenon: [webmasterworld.com...] - msg #:54 is the most illuminating post.

dauction




msg:836742
 7:35 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

There might be something about the site that needs improvement. It's up to you to find what that may be.

no disrespect martini but that's bs , Y has been very happy with my site for 2 years ..nothing has changed except with Y.. (unless it's the 301)

They are the ones that update after update moved it from the backwoods to the front over 2 years ... and they are the ones that all of a sudden decide to send it back..

Nothing I did ..it's what they did .. and I get so tired of chasing these algos..I WONT chase the algo changes. I stopped doing that with G last year..and I sure to hell wont do it y .

(just frustration )

I'm popping in and out at Y so I'm just going to leave it be ..

Back to my paranoia though... It really isnt that far fetched for Y to at some point start playing hardball with G..

Look if you're getting 1/3 traffic from Yahoo ..lets go the extreme and say all sites using adsense are dropped or just sent back a few pages in Y's results that could mean a 30% reduction in Googles ad revenues. Thats huge and that would hurt G far more than the 30% in ad revenues it's stock would drop like a rock

That's not far fetched at all ...everytime they send a website that has adsense back it affects G

now whats to prevent them from this kind of war?

Just look at the Cold War .. US against Russia in the 60's to 80's ..mutual annihilation

Google could easily do the same to websites that use YPN .. but wai a second that wouldnt hurt much at all considering YPN is still small and represents just a fraction of Y's revenues .

So Y could lob it's attack and do very significant dammage to G and what could G really do back at Y?

martinibuster




msg:836743
 7:43 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

Y has been very happy with my site for 2 years ..nothing has changed except with Y... Nothing I did ..it's what they did...

Re-read my post.

Did I say you did something? Did I accuse you of anything?

Let me spell it out for you: Your rankings are dampened. There is a reason why the rankings are dampened. It could be anything from the algo changed and your backlinks aren't good enough to your website is too white hat and not spammy enough.

The good news is that you are not banned. And it could very well be your 301.

[edited by: martinibuster at 8:10 pm (utc) on Nov. 3, 2005]

dauction




msg:836744
 7:52 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

There is a reason why the rankings are dampened. It could be anything from the algo changed and your backlinks aren't good enough to your website is too white hat and not spammy enough

I'm just not going to play these stupid games with any se ..if somethings wrong tell us dont play this maybe this maybe bs

That's the part thats so frustrating ..the stupid little games

I'm well diversified with traffic so I'm fine but it's just so aggravating after climbing so high just to be sent back on a whim

kevinpate




msg:836745
 7:55 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

> unless it's the 301

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras*

*the above does not apply to the relatively small segment of the population who happen to reside near, care for, or raise, herds of zebras. :)

randle




msg:836746
 8:06 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

The good news is that you are not banned

Exactly, because if your not, thereís always hope.

However, if youíre having problems with Yahoo, so many times the answer is you have been penalized. If you search for your site by domain name, and the number of pages is shrinking, and then whatís left goes URL only, and eventually just the home page is left; you have been zapped. (they let you keep your home page so people can find you with a direct search so Iím told) Takes a while for this to all play out, especially with a large site, but it happens all the time to sites where no changes have been made; the changes have occurred in the filter that tags you as a bad element, (algorithmically)

The confusion starts, IMHO, from the fact that every webmaster always thinks in terms of Google. Not just positioning, i.e. ďgeez Iím # 1 in Google but # 20 in Yahoo, somethingís wrong, their picking on meĒ, but even more importantly in respect to penalties. For all its faults, Goolge has a much more sophisticated, and complex approach to penalties than Yahoo. You can be carrying a penalty in Google and not even know it, you just sink down a bit, there are varying degrees of penalties, there are not as many, their not as drastic, they are much more lenient in terms of heavy linking, and you have a much higher chance of redemption. (clean it up, file for reinclusion, and if you have in fact fixed the problem, generally you can get invited back into the party)

With a lot of issues in Goolge its really a matter of whatever tricks your up to, it just wonít help, but it doesnít get you permanently banned. Thatís not to say you canít get the death penalty, but you have to be one egregious spammer to incur that.

With Yahoo, trip that filter and thatís it. Your site is systematically removed from the index and there is nothing you can do about it. Itís just a cultural thing from their directory days when anybody on the web shivered at the thought of being kicked out of the Yahoo directory. Itís almost always a linking issue that trips the penalty, and then you start getting spat out of the index. If youíre wondering whatís gone wrong, thatís the place to start.

They take a hard line, but itís their index.

martinibuster




msg:836747
 8:12 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

>>>and there is nothing you can do about it.

There is plenty you can do. Most things can be fixed.

randle




msg:836748
 8:25 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

That you can fix it, I have no doubt, but getting re-included is the end goal, and for many, thatís proven to be most elusive. One does not lead to the other.

However, maybe we just have knocked on the right door yet.

[edited by: randle at 8:28 pm (utc) on Nov. 3, 2005]

jd01




msg:836749
 8:26 pm on Nov 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

We only play if we want to...

EVERY site I have (or have taken over the management of) that did not rank for it's chosen niche has been 100% the fault of the webmaster -- really, no joke.

Here are some (it's actually the short list) of the no-brainers people I know have pulled:
1. Dynamic Pages: All had similar descriptions, not more than 250 of 18K pages indexed, SEs thought all the pages were the same thing.
2. Static Pages: Descriptions had 4 comma's in some of them, looks like KW stuffing.
3. Requested Links: Sent the link text desired in the message, all links said the same thing, that's natural right?
4. Put Links on 2 Networks of Sites: Most links came from 3 IP blocks, looks like someone is gaming.
5. Commented Out HTML: Lazy, wanted to remove a phone number, but might want to put it back, so I commented the line of HTML. Looks like hidden text. (I did this -- kicked my own *** for about two weeks after I realized what I had done...)
6. Every Heading on the Page = H2: A number of things wrong here. Not compliant code. Looks spammy. No actual definition of what is on the page. Etc.

Most of the mistakes I have seen people make are simple errors that should not have happened, unfortunately, the SEs are getting better all the time at detecting these, so sites that ranked yesterday might have a tough time today -- not because the site has done something wrong recently, but because what is wrong with the site is finally detectable.

Is that the fault of the SE, or us for not doing our job right -- There are sites I took over in July that have *never* ranked well. One 4 years old, the other almost 2 years. After 4 months of adjusting, correcting, re-linking, etc. they are doing well in Y and MSN, and look like they will do *very* well in this G update...

Were all three search engines broken, and some how get fixed at almost exactly the same time, or did making adjustments/corrections make them fit what the SEs are looking for, and then allow them to rank?

Justin

corinaw




msg:836750
 5:36 am on Nov 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

-------------------------------------------------
5. Commented Out HTML: Lazy, wanted to remove a phone number, but might want to put it back, so I commented the line of HTML. Looks like hidden text. (I did this -- kicked my own *** for about two weeks after I realized what I had done...)
-----------------------------------------------------

Is this true? I had no idea that commenting out html could be considered spam. I have next to zero actual comments <!-- words or instructions --> in my html, but I did have a few sections where I had added, then removed valid html. Could you please elaborate on this comment.

Thanks

jd01




msg:836751
 7:23 am on Nov 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Commenting out HTML...

Had heard speculation, and seen sites using this as a spam technique, like hidden DIV tags, and negative absolute positions with CSS, but nothing definitive until Matt Cutts made a comment about CSS and 'hidden' H1's on his blog.

The suggestion to view your site in a text browser EG lynx is a great way to make sure your site appears to a spider the same way it looks to visitors, because a text browser will show all information on the page, not just what 'regular' html browsers show. They are great for looking at the order your page loads/reads also.

EG In an HTML browser, most of my sites have left navigation, which would normally load first (with tables). In a text browser, my navigation is at the bottom of the page, because I use CSS (correctly, nothing hidden or spammy) to position the left col, so I can put the code for it at the bottom of the page and load it last, even though it is on the left side... gets the body (text) on my page closer to the top.

So, the short answer is yes, I am fairly sure at least one SE will consider hidden/commented HTML code spam, and would guess if the others do not, they will shortly.

Hope this helps.

Justin

soapystar




msg:836752
 10:36 am on Nov 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

yes i think its its possible to be filtered on the basis of an over achieving site. I dont think this has happened if you're not banned though.

afterburner




msg:836753
 11:59 am on Nov 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

I lost some good positions in Yahoo with this latest update. How can I tell if my URL is banned or not? Thanks

randle




msg:836754
 12:45 pm on Nov 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

Typically the first thing you notice is a dramtaic drop in ranking, say 30 to 40 positions.

Search for your site by entering www.mydomain.com

When your home page appears, click "more from this site"

Now you should see a list of the pages Yahoo has indexed for your site

Do this once per day for a bout a week, if the total number of pages is dropping, its possible your penalized.

If you begin to see a serious drop over that time, say 1/3 of your pages, thats not good.

If you begin to see some pages start to go URL only thats not good.

If after 3 or 4 weeks your down to the home page only, you have been penalized. Thats proof positive; search for your site with www.mydomain.com, and if all that appears is the home page, thats it.

Good luck, hopefully its just a ranking issue.

dauction




msg:836755
 4:09 pm on Nov 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

However, if youíre having problems with Yahoo, so many times the answer is you have been penalized. If you search for your site by domain name, and the number of pages is shrinking, and then whatís left goes URL only, and eventually just the home page is left; you have been zapped

Yep that's what happened ..

I think I sorted out the issue after I received a response back from yahoo .
They start off with the quality control response and then give you a list of 5 things that could be the problem..

Of course they wont say which one ..you need to figure out which one..

I think it has to be keyword density ... The site is a few years old and at that time you needed a little higher density to get the se bots attention on what search term you wanted to be found on ..I have a few hundred pages running at 9-12%

So I'm going to spend the weekend go through all the pages and cut keyword density in half and update the pages a bit while I'm at it ..starting to get stale anyways

resubmit and cross my fingers thats what the problem was

dauction




msg:836756
 4:19 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Just to update :

OK , I'm back in after 11 days ..

Apparently the pages were to "rich" in keyword density , I pulled the density back across all pages, took me about 4 days and updated the content on all those pages .

I resubmitted last Friday and this morning the pages are all coming back.

So I can say with certainty all is not lost if they "ban" you , just try and figure out what they dont like - they arent going to tell you , they just give you a list of 5 things it could be- it's up to you/us to figure out which one it is.
Dont cut any corners, just fix it cross your fingers and resubmit .

11 days is exceptional , I wouldn't count on that , I wasnt.
I expected to be on the sidelines for at least 30 days and probably 60 days .

If you have a site that Yahoo sidelines and need some help figuring out what the issue is you can PM me and I'll take a look .

tintin01




msg:836757
 10:57 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

Hi:
I just noticed that most of my pages got dropped from yahoo after doing so well till yesterday. I saw that dauction mentioned that he was able to get his site back up after some changes.
Could you please advise on how I should get started. Should I email Yahoo first? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

dauction




msg:836758
 11:18 pm on Nov 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

afterburner

Type your website name in Y's search box example.com
if the only page that comes up then you've probably been banned .

You can send them a message [add.yahoo.com...]

They'll respond with a canned message and after you figure out what you did wrong you can resubmit your site for review at this address

[add.yahoo.com...]

soapystar




msg:836759
 1:27 pm on Nov 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

by the way.....dont expect the requirements to get through a review to have anything to do with why you was banned.....its chalk and cheese.....

ozfreedom




msg:836760
 9:06 am on Dec 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

ok. i had a site created around mar 05, initially ranked very well in msn and yahoo for each optimised page. it has adsense ads. i had a related blog, and initially blogged and pinged it to get the main site into yahoo.

then around july, it disappeared, except for index page. i did small tweaks. it looked like none of my initial link partners were reciprocating (there were less than 20).

in october i revisited everything. made sure everything validated. removed any potential alt text spam (only one word). did up to 100 link swaps with related sites, split into themed pages. my blog has stayed happily on page 1 or 2 of the sought phrase

in the last two weeks all the pages have reappeared in yahoo.

1. Does this mean I am no longer banned?

The problem is that I am not ranked anywhere for my optimised pages in Yahoo. But they are still great at MSN.

An exception is where a subpage has a specific link from somewhere else. Especially my blog.

So a search at Yahoo for pink widgets isnt finding my pinkwidget.com site. Altho pinkwidget.blogspot is doing very well.

But a search for "pink widget obscure stories" did find one of my pages, altho at a measly page 4, I'm assuming because pink widget stories were mentioned on my pinkwidget.blogspot, with a link pointing back to pinkwidget.com/pink-widget-obscure-stories.php

It makes me think that once banned, navigation links are no longer enough to get the rest of the site ranked - Yahoo wants verification from an external site before they ever trust you again.

I don't want to directly request a review in case Yahoo tells me to remove my link swaps. Even tho they are nicely arranged into themed pages and would be of use to site visitors.

That would ruin the long-term Google strategy. I still find it easier to do link swaps than to write more articles in the hope of generating incoming links.

Has anyone else come back from a (assumed) banned position to decent ranking (not just indexing) without a formal yahoo review?

And do you think it's feasible that yahoo no longer trusts you for a ranking once youve been banned?

mikey158




msg:836761
 3:17 pm on Dec 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

If you dont think that Y would give extra weight to a YPN and Overture partner, then wake up!

ownerrim




msg:836762
 10:47 pm on Dec 3, 2005 (gmt 0)

"Could Yahoo be incorporating a variable that bans certain sites after they reach a certain rank and sending traffic that in actuallity is profiting google .."

Yes, SOUNDS like paranoia. But who knows? For serps I monitor, I have steadily noticed that sites that rank on the first and second pages for a niche or two in google are routinely sent to the backwaters in yahoo (pages 30-50). Does that mean that google is horrible at determining relevancy while yahoo is superb at it. I doubt it.

Yahoo is itself extraordinarily strange: bad targeting in a months-old contextual beta; a directory, the admission to which, may cause you to lose positions in yahoo; a copyright infringement policy that allows a reported infringer to be exiled from yahoo without any sort of due process (I've read this in a number of webmaster zines, but, of course, have no clue if it is really true, so this may simply be urban legend).

otnot




msg:836763
 5:41 am on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

I may not use Yahoo much but in their defense. I contacted them this morning to find out if I had a penalty and they actually took the time to look at my site and tell me that there were no infractions on my part. See what you get from Google.

martinibuster




msg:836764
 7:27 pm on Dec 4, 2005 (gmt 0)

mb
There might be something about the site that needs improvement. It's up to you to find what that may be...

dauction
no disrespect martini but that's bs

mb
Your rankings are dampened. There is a reason why the rankings are dampened.

Eleven days later
dauction
Apparently the pages were to "rich" in keyword density , I pulled the density back across all pages, took me about 4 days and updated the content on all those pages.

Guess it wasn't bs?

This is a perfect example of using level-headed analysis to hand check your own site to figure out what is going wrong.

The wrong step to take is to make an assumption without analysis:
Will Yahoo drop your pages if you rank too high for free and running adsense

The right thing to do is first check if you are banned or simply dampened. If you do a site search and only get one page back as being in the index, you're banned.

If not, then your ranking is merely dampened and you have hope. It's a matter of figuring out what in the algo has changed in your area that is now affecting your site.

There are still some questions left, all is not tidy here:

  • Did something trigger dauction's site drop?
  • Was there a relation to the 301?
  • OOP has been an ongoing factor with Yahoo for the last few months, but why hadn't it affected dauction's site until now?
  • Could the 301 have been the trigger to jar his site out of a trusted position and caused it to be viewed as a new site?

deanril




msg:836765
 3:30 am on Dec 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I would like dauction to enter his old keywords that ranked good, but add the ol -asdf after the keywords.

Ala "keyword -asdf" also go to yahoo.ca and mx.yahoo.com and see how you rank on those.

If all is well with -asdf and .ca and mx. then yeah you've been hit for having too good a site IMHO.

Yahoo is trying to raise capital for the AOL buy out. 1 way to do that is to break the sacred taboo, and serve up garbage on purpose in hopes of gaining ad clicks and raising that capital.

Unfortunately its going to cost millions in the long run, they have lost probably 10%-15% market share in this last 6 months of serving up garbage results on purpose. Thats Millions and Millions in market share, and it wont magically come back once you decide to be a real search engine again and serve up relevant results.

Only bad thing here, is now Google has approx 65%-70% Market share, and thatís too many eggs in one basket, I like it better when its spread around a bit. If you lose out on one engine you still have the other 2.

IMHO Yahoo has literally screwed the pooche and will pay dearly as it tries to hang on to what little market share it retains, thatís if they ever decide to become a legit search engine again. If they continue on this path, might be 10% Market share before too long and a lot of pink slips at Yahoo....

My main site too got hit by this, doing great for years, now nothing, buried somewhere, but on .ca mx. and -asdf all is well for my site, obviously being filter out for it's Relevancy?

martinibuster




msg:836766
 4:51 am on Dec 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

Yahoo is trying to raise capital for the AOL buy out. 1 way to do that is to break the sacred taboo, and serve up garbage on purpose in hopes of gaining ad clicks and raising that capital.

Shhh... Elvis is in charge of that initiative and he wants to keep it on the downlow.

deanril




msg:836767
 5:35 am on Dec 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

I guess I was wrong, Yahoo had no interest in AOL....... [webmasterworld.com...]

arubicus




msg:836768
 6:24 am on Dec 7, 2005 (gmt 0)

"My main site too got hit by this, doing great for years, now nothing, buried somewhere, but on .ca mx. and -asdf all is well for my site, obviously being filter out for it's Relevancy? "

Nice to see people actually talking about this. Yep one of our sites have the same problem. This site ranks well in .ca mx and -asdf. What is funny is how some of the sites I see in the SERPS just came out of nowhere forming clumps of irrelevancy in between relevant results.

This 36 message thread spans 2 pages: 36 ( [1] 2 > >
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