| This 34 message thread spans 2 pages: 34 (  2 ) > > || |
|Will a Yahoo penalty naturally go away once a site is fixed?|
I fixed my sites, should I email Yahoo or just wait?
| 9:43 pm on Aug 3, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I think I have finally figured out why my sites are penalized; cross-linking. I've now seen the light and am going to remove all cross-linking between my sites. Once I do this I think my sites will finally be in complete compliance with Yahoo's guidelines. Is it still a good idea to email an appeal to Yahoo at the two emails given in earlier threads or is it possible just to wait and get picked back up. I've heard in other forums that some think that once you email Yahoo, they definitively label you as a spammer. Anyone else heard this, or is this conspiracy theory rubbish?
Also, if you think it is a good idea to email Yahoo, how would you go about appealing several sites? In seperate emails or all at once in one email. I have about 15 sites that are all listed in the Yahoo directory in different categories, each with unique content.
| 10:27 pm on Aug 3, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I don't know for certain but I'm pretty confident it won't do any harm.
|Is it still a good idea to email an appeal to Yahoo at the two emails given in earlier threads or is it possible just to wait and get picked back up. |
Haven't heard that one! It sounds like mild paranoia to me. :)
|Anyone else heard this, or is this conspiracy theory rubbish? |
Whenever I honestly and sincerely admit to a mistake or confess to a "sin," people seem to "sense" my genuine intent to do better and are more apt to forgive and forget.
|how would you go about appealing several sites? In seperate emails or all at once in one email. |
Tell them "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," in one email. And when you promise to conform to their guidlines in the future, you better mean it. I doubt you'll get a second chance.
| 10:29 pm on Aug 3, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Donin, if you've fixed the problem, the free crawl should begin picking up your sites. You can also try resubmitting them to firstname.lastname@example.org.
| 2:09 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Thanks for the input Dave and Mike. Yahoo-Mike, do you think I should send in all the sites I want to appeal to the email@example.com address in one email or as seperate emails? I'm not looking to be tricky here, but I don't want to do anything stupid either. Any advice would be appreciated.
Plus- are you saying that once a site comes into compliance it can be picked up by the free crawler and be once again included in the serps and have its penalties removed automatically? It doesn't necessarily require a human to remove penalties? If so, that's great!
| 2:30 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>Tell them "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," in one email. And when you promise to conform to their guidlines in the future, you better mean it. I doubt you'll get a second chance.
These seem like very specific harsh statements. What are you basing this information on? Has somebody from Yahoo said to you there are no second chances? Why wouldn't there be?
Looks like Yahoo Mike is switching between those posted addresses for the umphteenth time. They can't seem to settle on one. Wasn't somebody from Yahoo's spam department cruising for url's last week from the other address?
| 2:57 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
It's based on how I dealt with a severe penalty at another engine. It's also based simply on general life experiences dealing with people.
|What are you basing this information on? |
<added>If you're thinking I have the "inside scoop" on Yahoo, all I can say is that I wish I did have it! :)</added>
[edited by: DaveAtIFG at 3:01 am (utc) on Aug. 4, 2004]
| 2:59 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|These seem like very specific harsh statements. What are you basing this information on? Has somebody from Yahoo said to you there are no second chances? Why wouldn't there be? |
On the SE side, how much would you pay an employee to continually review a site where the person didn't quite 'fess up? There are too many good sites out there that will fill your SERPs than having to worry about those that work along the edges.
On the personal side, after you have lain prostrate before a search engine rep, hair shirt and all, said your mea culpas and promised never to do it again, it's kind of hard to go back, look him in the eye and say "Oops! I forgot about..."
Believe me, it's much better to be able to look him in the eye and say "Thanks for your help."
| 3:05 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|it's much better to be able to look him in the eye and say "Thanks for your help." |
| 3:26 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>On the personal side, after you have lain prostrate before a search engine rep, hair shirt and all, said your mea culpas and promised never to do it again, it's kind of hard to go back, look him in the eye and say "Oops! I forgot about..."
I really think its a little pathetic that Yahoo has brought things down to the level they have on the Internet. They want people kissing their hienies to be in their engine. If people had been violating that many rules other search engines would have caught up with them long ago. It took the new Yahoo to see all the problems. Yeah, right.
I don't think any of them at Yahoo could look me straight in the eye.
| 7:41 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
First of all the point about if you appeal you are labelled a pro SEO or spammer would have some merit given that only forums such as this carry the appeal address. Anyone not at least semi-pro has no way of knowing about it and i guess that's for a reason.
When Yahoo_mike says if the problem is fixed the free crawl should pick up his site it must be assumed he is talking about the specific crosslinking issue. It would be impossible to know most problems are fixed because once banned you are not crawled.
firstname.lastname@example.org was the original email address given for questions about dropped sites. Then we were told for review requests it should be the reportsearchspam address. Then we were told either address would do and so yes it is a little confusing to get the webmasterworld address again. I guess the sensible thing is to assume whichever address you send to you should get some sort of pasted reply to know your into a review.
|Tell them "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," in one email. And when you promise to conform to their guidelines in the future, you better mean it. I doubt you'll get a second chance. |
The truth about what? You are asking for a review. It would be usual to do this after submitting what you think is a clean site, if its not clean then you know you have no chance. I would also like to know more about your experience in this. Are you saying that even if the site is now clean you must explain what you cleaned up and why it needed cleaning? This idea that to successfully appeal you have to tell them everything makes no sense to me. They know why you were banned they tell us, so it should be a case of is it clean now and was the original reason for a ban also cleaned. The point about only one chance, If that is the case its very interesting and helpful for those about to appeal to be aware of this. Either Tim or Yahoo_mike, i forget which one, i believe it was mike, said in fact you can ask for a review again. We are talking in many cases where the sites have not knowingly cheated or broken guidelines and do not know what to confess.
I dont mean ask for a re-review the day after asking for the first. But for an evolving site i would assume a year later after more big changes would not be unreasonable. Sides on the edges of guidelines were talked about but the reality for a huge bulk of sites with content that is valuable they will be on the edge at some pint. Affiliate sites for example are told they must have substantial content to outweigh the affiliate part of the site. At what point does substantial move away from the edges? I can think of examples of affiliate sites that have unique content. Content that is sought after by the user and cant be found elsewhere and with huge repeat traffic. As they grow as a site so does the unique content. Under the present system they don't get the chance to grow if they cant appeal again as that content continues to grow.
| 11:23 am on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Ive dropped from yahoo in the last 2 weeks and i guess it was from a bit of cross linking between some of my sites. I'm not too concerned about most of them except for one, which is a very good quality site with lots of content and is loved by all those that visit it.
Can someone please tell me the proper steps I should take to get the ban lifted.
Has anyone actually had a penalty lifted and how long did it take?
Also, when/if i get included in yahoo again, will my site still carry some sort of penalty affecting my serps?
| 2:58 pm on Aug 4, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Ive never quite gotten my head around the reason for this 'cross linking' nonsense penalty. Its almost as if some person of dubious intellect sat there and said to themself.."oooh, if sites link themselves together, they exploit the link pop aspect of our algo. I know, lets just ban those that do"
What complete and utter cobblers that is, if the algo can detect it, then why ban or penalise? Isn't that a bit nasty and mean spirited? It makes sense to me, to just make sure those links don't count, and let the natural link pop speak for itself.
What kind of society would we be left with, if every attempt at gaining some kind of edge, was met with elimination! And yet, for Y! this is perfectly reasonable and ok.
Site owners shouldn't be blamed for trying to get an edge and Y! shouldn't IMHO, viciously punish those that do, and the facts are that it does.
It gets back to the fact that unfortunately, Yahoo are in a postion to abuse a sizeable share of the search market, and not content with making multi millions, it seems intent to want to squeeze the pips until they squeak and glean every ounce of profit that they possibly can. As a search duopolist shouldn't it have a responsibilty to all its stakeholders?
Most sites that have been banned are often in direct competition with services that Y! wants to monetise and profit from itself. It is disingenuous to feed this crap line about having too much of the same old content, when the reality is that it justs wants to stick its own affilaite plug-in in front of peoples faces.
All this reinclusiion stuff is just a pathetic attempt at painting some kind of caring lsitening pr face for Y!
The bottom line is that if you are removed for reasons relate to for example,having a high degree of affiliate content, then you are wasting your breath trying for reinclusion. You could have a ton of good, well written, well researched pages, but if you happen to use a consolidated db in a way that conflicts with Y!'s tos then you are toast. Net effect, dont do it, which means that you get no funding for your work, which means that you may as well not exist in your field.
After all, how dare I use my time and energies creating worthwhile and useful content, how dare i try to supplement my efforts with other useful stuff that people might use and pay for, and how dare I too, use a duopolistic search provider to try and push my scummy wares in the process! How dare I, a parasite, attempt to feed off of this parasite!
All this BS about wanting to serve its users is at best untrue and at worst complete and utter sh##, that is an insult to my limited intelligence.
Just be honest Y! tell people the truth, tell them that you want to monetise it all, tell us that you just want pay for play and on your terms only, tell us to buy overture ads, tell us to sign up for crappy ol site match, but please, please, please, quit telling us that you really give a stuff for us, or your users, cos you don't.
| 2:26 pm on Aug 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I'm saying that I have been able to build and maintain valuable, lasting relationships most effectively through honesty, candor, admitting to personal mistakes, and keeping my agreements. This is true for me in both business and personal relationships. YMMV.
|Are you saying that even if the site is now clean you must explain what you cleaned up and why it needed cleaning? |
How you choose to deal with others is entirely up to you, of course.
I'm NOT subtle! In fact, some folks tell me I'm too direct. Please don't read more into my posts than what I have written. :)
| 11:51 pm on Aug 7, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I have had first hand experience with a Yahoo penalty and can tell you conclusively the following:
1>Yahoo will deny claims of your penalty, or say you don't have one when it's obvious it is assigned
2>Yahoo will not remove the penalty for months or years
3>Many of the pages on the site that is penalized will fall from the index and never be re-included again unless you pay them for sitematch.
4>Even if you are a paying member for one of your websites to be included (before when Yahoo was Ink) you will recieve little to no service
I've explains this on many threads, but I guess I'll explain again.
I had two sites on the Yahoo engine which were performing very, very well, for many different keyword queries. On one site, I was ranked very well in a very competitive search which took a very agressive and long link campaign.
On the other, I had sub-pages of the site optimized very well, and they were first for yahoo queries.
I had extensive cross-linking between the two put in.
When the new Yahoo TOS was released, or maybe even before (I think it happened when I began cross-linking the two domains), all my rankings disappeared. The one site that had sub-pages ranking so well, well those pages are no longer in the index. On that site, 10/75 pages are in the index. I've re-submitted many times, I've had emails back and forth from Yahoo; they were all really useless. I've heard of people on here having problems like this for over a year!
Well, I moved the one domain thinking this would help alleviate the problem. I'm getting a new design for it and everything, probably building all new content...but now I've been reading people are having problems getting Yahoo to recognize a domain switch.
I realize it's not a domain switch if I'm building new content and changing the design, probably even the hieracy too. I'll have to start over from scratch with the links and hopefully get my 200+ old link partners to forward their links to the new site.
Anyways, in the end, I'm appolled with Yahoo...
| 12:14 am on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
By the way Travelman, I'm just as ticked as you.
| 1:13 am on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
"Donin, if you've fixed the problem, the free crawl should begin picking up your sites"
is the manual penalty removed for good now? Do we just "fix" our sites and Slurp will go beyond the robots.txt?
| 10:02 am on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
penalty? why on earth would you even think about contacting a service so large and think they will check you out to see if you are now ok?
Yahoo is easy and they do crawl in a big way.
If you think you have a penalty than either put your black hat back on and work it or start a new domain
and try a new strategy. Black, white or gray works great with the engines. You will always see all kinds of results in the search engines using all techniques.
Do not sit here and ****...get back to work.
| 11:52 am on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I suppose you donīt have any "legal company site" with happy customers that know your site for long and people recomending your url...............
Can you imagine The big famous companies as Ford, google or even microsoft having to change their url...
People with companies just donīt change url as they change cloths.
There are several companies out there using other companies to manage their websites, and there are spammy webdesigners and SEOīs and the owner normally donīt understand. You really think there shouldnīt be any way back for these companies after they fired the spammy one and got a knew company to manage their site?
Luckily my site is back in after being penalized by yahoo from start, by Inktomi I donīt know for how long.
And I canīt imagine me changing my companies name.
And people should find my and other sites that arenīt spamming sites in all free index.
The important thing here is what walkman and soapystar said before.
Is slurp not only spidering robots.txt for banned sites anymore?
Otherwise no way they can know if problem got fixed, they only can know if site is banned due of external problems as other "bad" sites linking to you.
| 1:33 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
SuddenlySara, the solution you give is no good for large well known sites, corporate sites, site that have a brand as it was alredy pointed in the above post.
It is a good news what Yahoo Mike said that the free crawler will pick up the site once it is fixed. I have a site with a penalty and though it is not back in SERPs but it is being crawled for the last 15 days or so. so i hope that is what Yahoo Mike talked about.
markis00, as much as i think Yahoo relationships with webmasters sucks i have to disagree with
|1>Yahoo will deny claims of your penalty, or say you don't have one when it's obvious it is assigned |
Their answers can be confusing etc. but i did receive a confirmation about a penalty being on the site and i know many others did.
|2>Yahoo will not remove the penalty for months or years |
Yahoo search has a history of few months, how you can say penalty will not be removed for years? based on what experience when the service is no new?
|3>Many of the pages on the site that is penalized will fall from the index and never be re-included again unless you pay them for sitematch. |
SiteMatch is not a solution for a site with penalty from my experience. Even if you get into siteMatch you will not rank, will not appear in SERPs, but only will show up if you search for url etc.
[edited by: enotalone at 1:41 pm (utc) on Aug. 8, 2004]
| 1:35 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
"If you think you have a penalty than either put your black hat back on and work it or start a new domain
and try a new strategy."
not everyone has hundreds of domains with affiliate junk that can get switched if one domain is penalized. Y! makes mistakes just like everyone else and things change over the years so asking why is not b*tching.
| 2:00 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
helenP : You are 100% right on with this one!
| 2:31 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|I have a site with a penalty and though it is not back in SERPs but it is being crawled for the last 15 days or so. |
yes, this is happening to many penalised sites. They are doing something new which has coincided with the dropping from serps for the sites concerned of even being found for a domain name search even when in the directory. I do not believe this means you are about to unpenalised. How strange that my penalised unworthy site has just had a request from Yahoo to update my credit card details so they can renew my directory listing.
|penalty? why on earth would you even think about contacting a service so large and think they will check you out to see if you are now ok? |
because they provide an email addess to do so!
|If you think you have a penalty than either put your black hat back on and work it or start a new domain |
what do you base this on? No other engine works like Yahoo in this respect.
and try a new strategy. Black, white or gray works great with the engines. You will always see all kinds of results in the search engines using all techniques.
we are talking about Yahoo, this is the Yahoo forum.
Do not sit here and ****...get back to work.
we see this comment a lot. Normally there is at least a reasonably deep understanding of what the member is talking about to temper it.
| 5:59 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>Yahoo search has a history of few months, how you can say penalty will not be removed for years? based on what experience when the service is no new?<
Quite a few PFI sites including mine have been penalized for a year by Ink/Yahoo. The penalties started with the Inktomi acquisition which was quite a while back. The new Yahoo itself has now been in existence over five months. When you slice the income of a commerce site, engaged in sales, a month can be devastating.
| 6:25 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
I have made some progress. I've posted this below...but what happened to me was my rankings just went to the trashcan. Had about 4 emails back and forth from Yahoo; always told me there was no penalty, etc.
But my sub-pages were ranking so well, then those rankings disappeared, and so did the pages in the index. Only 10 of 75+ are now indexed. If it wasn't penalized, why can't I get those pages into the index anymore?
Somewhat strange, no? I never got a confirmation about a penalty either.
I even called Yahoo once. I was put on hold for 20+ minutes, and then they gave me the email for the directory service!
Then I found the feedback email here.
Anyways, I put on my thinking hat, and came up with a rational way to approach the problem.
And I'm happy to say that today I have some of my old rankings again!
I woke up this morning, and because of the moving of the URL, it looks like Yahoo has actually removed the irrelevant links that were causing the problem in the index. (Yes, I cross-linked, it's what started the whole problem). My homepage is getting some rankings now; since I couldn't get my sub pages back into the index on the one site, I just put headers with the related keywords on my homepage, with links to the subpages. There's already the links on the left nav, but I figured if I couldn't get my sub pages back into the index, this would work too.
Well, looked like it worked. My Adsense earnings are up today, my Yahoo referrals aren't doing too bad (where they were 0 for a while).
Seems long nights with my friend coffee have payed off! After 4 months, I still can't get my subpages for that site into the index (no idea why still) but I got my homepage to rank for many keywords. Nope, no keyword spamming, just a lot of related keyword headers with links.
Hurrah! In future, I plan to NOT use ANY cross-linking. I learn from my mistakes. If I had never done this in the first place, I never would have had these problems!
I guess 4 months isn't too bad for a "penalty" to be removed. Alright, here's my solution, to anyone else penalized. We all deserve to have our rankings back!
If you've got two domains you own, and you cross-linked them to get better rankings, thus acquiring a penalty, here's what I did, folks.
-Move one domain. Yes, I know, it sucks, and you have to build ALL those links again, but it's worth it in the long run. Hopefully your old link partners understand. If you've got a good site, good content, nice design, they will.
-Make sure no one else is using more then a few links to your site. Ultimately, one link per site is best. If you run an affiliate program, sorry, can't help you (I don't know how these people keep their rankings with the new TOS)
-Try re-submitting the URL once these links are removed. I think Yahoo has almost like a bug, that it takes a very long time to find links that have been removed. Once you put a link up from your site to another, and Yahoo spiders this and indexes it as a BL, it's very hard to get off the index. I removed all these links but it took the engine 4 months to find they were no longer there (and I had to move the one domain to get this to happen). So, remember: quality, not quantity, check sites you link with, and stay AWAY from cross-linking! Once it's up, it's...up. A LONG time, in my case.
-You can email Yahoo if you like, but if you didn't get a confirmation that you were penalized it's kind of a waste of time. I didn't get a confirmation and Yahoo unfourtunately didn't help me much with the problem. It's alright though, you live and learn. Best method is trial and error. No one else can tell you how to fix your own errors (well, I guess they can, but in my case I just kept trying and didn't give up).
-It's going to take a few months. I actually read on one post someone was penalized over a year! But 4 months isn't too bad; I did lose a lot of business, but I'm just happy I'm still afloat.
Anyways, I hope this information helps people out some. I know if I had a surefire way to fix my problem 4 months ago I would have been a much more happy camper.
| 6:28 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
just new to this forum and personaly never received any penalty, nor do I have spammys sites. didn't know large well branded sites are getting penalties? do find all kinds of spammy sites at the top of yahooooo.
| 6:47 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
|do find all kinds of spammy sites at the top of yahooooo. |
i dont think anyone will argue about that....!
| 6:51 pm on Aug 8, 2004 (gmt 0)|
Spammy sites never stay at the top long. New algo, new update; they're gone.
Quality content sites with lots of good links and content will always have the advantage.
| 4:50 am on Aug 9, 2004 (gmt 0)|
>Quality content sites with lots of good links and content will always have the advantage.<
Ok, I'm biased, but I'd disagree with the "always" part of that message.
We have a quality content site. (actually a couple of them). They are updated regularly (we publish about 8 new articles a week) and they are popular with our readers. Our mailing list and number of site visitors grows steadily. (Even without Yahoo pointing to us.)
So, while content and quality certainly do make for worthwhile sites,and they will get traffic - and business through other channels, they don't necessarily do any good for getting back into (or avoiding penalties)at Yahoo.
| 12:12 pm on Aug 9, 2004 (gmt 0)|
True attard; depends how competitive it is for your site on engines ultimately...
| 4:01 am on Aug 13, 2004 (gmt 0)|
the answer is no apparently. For about 2 weeks Y! spidered some of my pages (previously banned site) and now it stopped completely. Is it just me?
| This 34 message thread spans 2 pages: 34 (  2 ) > > |