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|Are we persons or seos with big bank accounts|
This is sort of oftopic, but I must speak.
Tried to be quiet, waiting patiently.
I am an normal person with one website, that started business for 2 years ago, not expecting the success we have now, launched it, just to try to launch an business not to work on the street.
Actually, we (me and my sister in law after one year made an legal company, trying to earn money to live, to feed our kids, not afiliated, an real company, one thats brings the cleaner and put welcome pack to our guests......)Lot of work, not much money, but I am working from home with my kids.
Really what hurts me more than the money I am loosing, is my person, that for 4 months is playing sherlock Holmes, smoking 2 packets of cigarretes per day, forgetting my family, only thinking about my problem with Yahoo.
forgetting all this.
What I see in here, many seems to think everybody that posts here are SEOs with big bank accounts, and big spammers.
And really I am afraid of saying what I am thinking, maybe could be bad for me, thatīs awful thoughts, to get quality everybody should say what they think, not waiting for somebody else to say it.
My story, i have an old Inktomi penalty (but nobody from yahoo ever said I have, they said in e-mails my site been blocked, proberbly due reasons I said in my apealing) .......and that they apreciated my effort of improving my site, most sites donīt change anything, they just apeal.......
Well In my apealing I told that when I launched my site, I submitted where I could.......even an linkfarm, I was nowhere to be found...that was back in 2002, I read a lot about launching sites, and back in 2002 nobody seemed to think that was bad.
And was very happy to see 25 visitors a day, from diferent sites, even from this linkfarm, and many months later was included in google, we started to go into business.
So in my apealing I told the truth, I hate lies, on top of money is my honor....
I did participate in one linkfarm when launching my site, though didnīt know was bad, just to get hits.... but when understood was bad, more than a year ago, I took away my link to this website.
well, 1/4 Tim said publically that my site was in serp if I havnīt checked for some days,
I answered: no I am not, several hours later Tim edited his post saying: your site has been reviewed just be patient, you will be in serps soon. To me means he checked it....
This is the thread: [webmasterworld.com...]
Well about 15 days later, Tim answered another thread of mine, saying if I want another review........clean up your site, and when done, I will have somebody to review it...........
I just canīt think he lied to me intencionally just to be favoured in this forum........... or to silence me.
I just canīt believe anybody can be that bad, that evil,
so I must think there is some other problem with my site, some issue,........or maybe the person that reviewed it forgot to push the button: admit? Of course, no company admit these issues,.
So therefore I am playing Sherlock Holmes all day, trying to found the problem in Yahoo, even asking sites to deleate my listing in their directory.
As an human, just pissed of.
[edited by: helenp at 12:15 am (utc) on May 2, 2004]
Would like to add,
Itīs hard thinking anybody reviewed my poor site back in 2002 manually, my site was an poor one, and ever paid Inktomi......., I can show thousands of big sites that did the same for an year ago and they are in serps, if so, only bad luck it was my site.
and if was due of backlinks, couldnīt be an algo penalization, though these sites that ever actualized there sites (most poor personal sites, that donīt understand these things) are still in serps..........
I feel your pain. It's hard to tell what sort of mix of folks we have here. I'm certain that with the staggering popularity of webmasterworld.com there is bound to be every flavor of hobbyist and professional represented.
If I were you, I would not think about it anymore. Focus your energy on other search engines, and other ways to improve your web site. Think about ways to increase the conversion of your existing traffic, by improving the way things look and function. These are goals you can set yourself and goals you can achieve through sheer force of will. Trying to stare down the Yahoo web site won't earn you anything but an ulcer!
As for myself, I'm not a big SEO person with a huge bank account. I work from a home office just like you. At present I spend at least $1,000/month on PPC. Is that about average for the members? I don't know. If I were forced to guess, I'd guess the average amount of all members is approx. $175/month, with the top 1% spending as much as the bottom 99% in any given month. It would be cool if the admin of this site ran a voting booth on this :)
It's true that every company should work on improving their customer relationship management or loyalty will suffer greviously. But this is especially true for Yahoo which lags behind significantly with regard to CRM. When signing into both my standard and premium services account it struck me that nowhere did I find a Support link. I'm a pretty smart fella, and it took me a great long while to locate a phone number. And the phone number isn't a customer number, it's a general contact number, and as a customer that makes me feel pretty worthless, since I have to wait in the same line with people who aren't actual customers. Clearly this is a problem.
By contrast, it's easy to get support online at Overture.com; their support system is outstanding. Hopefully that will carry over to Yahoo! Corporate eventually?
>>>>>>>>>>> $1,000/month on PPC.>>>>
>>>>>If I were you, I would not think about it anymore. Focus your energy on other search engines, and other ways to improve your web site.>>>>>>>>>>
wow, I donīt even earn that per month..........
There are no other search engine thatīs worth the pain for the moment.
yahoo bouth all the web and altavista, and has msn for the moment.
these engines are not worht much excepts msn, but the swedish do use altavista a lot..........that hurts me as well
Helen, sorry to hear what you have been going through.
However, the problem you are describing sounds to me like the problems of extreme capitalism and the extreme domination of corporations in our society.
The internet is past its infant stages and has become another reflection of capitalist society. Gone are the days when things were free and mom & pop sites could compete with corporations online. Now the internet is all about big budgets. Yahoo is merely reflecting this.
The dotcom bust saw a huge amount of companies folding because they weren't thinking about revenue. I think Yahoo is focused on revenue - as is every company, including your own I'm sure. How many search engines have dissappeared because they couldn't be profitable?
As to the issue about who typical WebmasterWorld users - we have all kinds. There are many people in similar situations to you, many SEOS with big pockets, affiliate marketers, people representing huge sites...everybody's just trying to do their best.
If I were you, I would think of alternative solutions that remove your dependency on Yahoo. If they are not fixing your domain - get another one. Point your existing domain to your new one and try to build link pop for the new domain. It might take you some time but at least it'll give you a fresh start.
That's where you can fully utilize webmasterworld - in looking for solutions to your problems by yourself, without depending on anybody from Yahoo.
As to Tim's answers to you - think of how many sites & situations he's dealing with. I think you should give him a break and appreciate that he is trying to help.
In any case, good luck with your site and your business.
|If I were you, I would think of alternative solutions that remove your dependency on Yahoo. |
I am reminded of a statement that Brett made not too long ago about moving away from the whole idea of SE marketing. Food for thought, and perhaps a topic for another thread (or even a forum for that matter).
It has been said that the definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing while expecting different results.
Change your model. Look for different ways to generate customers, and work to maintain them.
If your current domain is banned, get a new one.
Spend some time brainstorming a new way to infuse life into your business. As has been stated many times on these boards, the SE's do not owe any of us a bloody thing.
I would suggest a new domain, too.
If you cannot clean up the site as Yahoo wanted and you need yahoo for your business, start a new one.
In fact, keep the old one and start new one, so that you can have a few visitors from other SEs at least.
Try to come up with good keywords1-keywords2.com for your field.
in fact, if you have done a web site for the last 2 years, you now know how to make a good site and optimize it for Google and Yahoo, I think.
And you are here reading all the info and suggestions, you will have a better site soon.
I Have Had It With Yahoo. Let Talk About Google! At Least With Google You Know Where You Stand. Also, Google Dose Not Have A Nasty littel Bot That Tricks You Into Paying For Your Own Penalty.
>>>>Also, Google Dose Not Have A Nasty littel Bot That Tricks You Into Paying For Your Own Penalty. <<
With all due respect, not funny at all in a caring community like we are, in light of the topic of the original post.
This is exactly the type of situation more webmasters (and webmistresses) are in than we might realize - having a modest home-based business that does rely on search engine traffic for economic survival. And for some it needs to be that way, whether it's for family reasons, disability reasons, age, where they live - any number of different situations that make it an ideal means of survival for them.
Unfortunately, the home-based or small business person generally hasn't had the experience or put the time in to know what to avoid; they might read a lot that they believe and shouldn't, but don't know any better - and a lot unwittingly get themselves into trouble.
I know from experience, from having worked with some of those types of sites until recently and spending far more time trying to straighten out the messes than was possible to continue to do. Couple of things instantly come to mind. People read that it "helps" rankings to have keyword domains. They buy them, and "point" them - with 302's.
I've seen pages copied from a site and put on another for "extra traffic" - duplicate content, with links back to their own identical pages. Passing pages around with all the same links to all the same group of sites with the same filename and all having a link back to where the link farm emanates from.
You have to dig long and hard to find out what kind of things people have done without telling. There are all kinds of things people do that the search engines consider spam - without thinking twice. They hear something works - they just do it.
The only choice there is at a certain point, is to learn from experience and do up another site in such cases.
Another thing - people sometimes think they're not ranking because of a penalty, when in actuality some are not ranking simply because they're not optimized for a certain engine. I think we'll see a lot more of that now, with people having relied so heavily on off-page factors for Google for so long and not looking further for such a long time.
There will be an adjustment period now, since it's been "all Google all the time." That isn't the case any more, for a lot of people it'll be a learning experience from the ground up and there will be some growing pains.
Helenp made the point not everybody is a SEO. Much of the advice offered however is from the perspective of SEO's. She is highlighting something far more fundamental. The aribitary and selective nature of the penalties and making them lifetime and not algo/filter sensitive. If its not arbitary and slective there is no way to explain the spam that has been left to flourish, or at the very least sites of the same nature. This is against a backdrop of presenting a free inclusion index of everything that is out there. While the advice given is helpful for anyone trying to make a site for a search engine isnt this the opposite of what Tim said the new Yahoo was all about. I also feel sorry for all those mom and pops out there who not only are unaware of lifetime bans but also about how to apeal them. I can understand how many forum members arent too happy with constant moaning from some of us here, but i dont understand why that excludes them from looking past their own table. A fundamental change is taking place on what will be avialable for most users to search. This is a turn around in the idea of a free and open internet. Large scale human penalties leaves a door wide open for manipulation. The only reason Yahoo can be singled for crtitism is because of the size they have developed to. When a company is dominating a market to that degree they take on added responsibilities, not just morally but legally too. This is why i believe its justified to critise the way they carry out their own buisness.
Helens other point was also glossed over. Can anyone imagine what it must be like to rely on one site (however right or wrong the stratedgy is) and to be told your in, youre out, you may be in, hang out your out. At the very least i would hope someone from Yahoo gives her an honest explantion of why that happened.
Thank you, soapystar. Nice post, and very sensitive of you, with a couple of good points made.
I think we have to look at the fact that the Yahoo people are *not* under any obligation to post here, and as long as they're reading and responding they'll be aware of the issues and be able to address them.
Maybe at least with an opportunity for a re-review in something like 3 months time, people would have a chance to figure out what's wrong without having to be told specifics and get a second chance if they've corrected what's wrong. That would be one step toward alleviating the situation.
Well thought out post Soapystar. I on the other hand would prefer Yahoo do a reassessment of its penalizations. This is why these forums have been reduced to the level of people begging to get back in Yahoo not data to enhance our businesses. Their methodology creates this. Throwing people back into a continual loop of hand reviews borders on to much censorship and jerking people around to me. How many companies can realistically shut down three to six months while somebody does a hand review of their site and then still not get a positive answer. Yahoo is really turning me off to the Internet as a whole.
And for all those people who are tired of this forum beign reduced to people asking about being penalized then here's a revelation: A forum is an open discussion so whatever topics are posted will be what the most important issues concerning the forum are. Obviously this is probably the biggest issue concerning yahoo from a webmaster's perspective at least and without webmasters there will be no yahoo content which would lead to no yahoo searchers.
If you look in the other search engine forums like Google and Ask Jeeves you don't see the same types of posts. That should tell you something right there.
I'm not going to go into my issue again other than I have been reviewed positively by Sitematch, yahoo, and positiontech reps and still no sign of my site in the search results except at the very bottom all likely because another site copied mine word for word 8 months ago.
I can feel HelenP when I sense her urgency in the matter. Some of us depend on this traffic source for our livelihoods. Reminds me of the uproar in my small hometown when a major highway through town was discussed being redirected to bypass it. With Yahoo controlling almost half the searches, it's not realistic to be able to wait months for a review, then even longer to be reincluded and still stay in business.
ohhh, quit your b*tching!
You can always go back to your day job or whatever.
If it was that easy to run an online business - everybody would do it. It's a business like any. It's hard work and things usually dont go your way. You cant just put together some kind of a website and want it to be #1 on yahoo overnight.
Good thing about yahoo is that does not depend on number of links, unlike google. So it's all about knowing how to optimize your website for it.
And by the way - if you dont even make $1000 a month, please, for the sake of your kids - find a job.
>>>>>You cant just put together some kind of a website and want it to be #1 on yahoo overnight.>>>>
Donīt think you understand, is question of being in or out.........small companies being out, that canīt afford to pay for ads.
I was wellranked in Yahoo, before they swithced and passed old Inktomi penalties.
Actually, My husband work on the street and either earn 1000 per month.......
an normal person where I am from earn 800 per month......
That's uncalled for atlrus.
I'm sorry Google hasn't treated you well. You should be more empathetic to other people's struggles.
well, you should move, becasue where I live, the mexican dishwashers make more than $1,000 a month.
Anyways, do not waste your time with the old website. Here is what you should do (since this is the purpose of this website):
1. Get a new domain name - $7.00
2. Submit your website using SiteMatch on Overture - that will guarantee you a review of your website, indexing of your URL and inclusion within two weeks - $49 + $0.15 per click.
3. Optimize your new website for Yahoo - your main keyword should have a density of at least 20. - Priceless
I have to warn you that you have to forget about Google, but if Yahoo is what you want - go for it.
See - it's not that expensive to run a website.
And when you start making the big bucks - dont forget you owe me a dinner.
Robin, the search engines treat me quite well indeed.
I am a little pissed off because it took me 3 pack of marlboro red a day, 2 quad esspressos a day, 14 hours in front of the PC a day for the past 5 months and I started with a budget of $0.00
And I hate when people cry about this and that - just put your mind and time to it and it will work - but NEVER the first time!
And stop using Webmasterworld as your own shrink - you can learn a lot here, and I mean a lot.
thats the problem.
Google is from where I get and always had most trafic.
with this Yahoo matter, I lost 30% of traffic I think.
So prefer Google......
What if google does another Florida update, last Florida I wasnīt bad hitted, but one never know what can happens.
well, the thing with google is that it will take a few months to see results.
If you have penalty on yahoo - google doesnt care about it. It's well known that you need links to your website. I dont know how competitive your keyword is, but I guess it's not much.
Sticky mail me your website's url and I'll take a look at it and try to help you.
Are you seriously suggesting that all buisnesses have the margins to afford $.15 pc? That sidelines many companies who by the nature of competition and low conversions cannot make money on click thru's. You seem to be confirming the view that far from freeing the serps from being purely commercial as suggested by Yahoo pr they are infact geared toward a policy where that can be the only outcome. The thread topic was about surviving in Yahoo when you are NOT a SEO. You proceeded to give a lesson on just that. I would hope that you may think about the implications of people not being able to concentrate on building a single useful website since that would be madness in the brave new world of Yahoo.
There is no such thing as free lunch.
Yahoo has now the option to submitt your url for free - you just have to wait and hope.
For $99 you can get your website reviewed, indexed and ready to go within 2 weeks.
Of course you have to pay, you pay for domain name, you pay for hosting, so why are you surprised to pay for fast and good inclusion in the most used search engine in the world?
Do you make your customers pay for your product? Of course you do - so does yahoo.
You dont have to. You can also get a free domain name and free hosting, but somehow I dont think you have.
And what is $0.15 per click anyway? Nothing!
>>There is no such thing as free lunch.<<
there is in a fee indexed search engine.
>>Yahoo has now the option to submitt your url for free - you just have to wait and hope. <<
this thread is about banned sites.
>>For $99 you can get your website reviewed, indexed and ready to go within 2 weeks. <<
no. Many guys have paid and been approved via sitematch and cant get in.
>>Of course you have to pay, you pay for domain name, you pay for hosting, so why are you surprised to pay for fast and good inclusion in the most used search engine in the world? <<
because you cant pay just for inclusion. How many non-profit information sites can aford to pay thousands for PPC's?
>>Do you make your customers pay for your product? Of course you do - so does yahoo. <<
Yahoo uses the serps to make money from other products, its you as a webmaster that enable THEM to make money.
>>And what is $0.15 per click anyway? Nothing!<<
until you get thousands of them.
Who came up with the "averages" that were posted for PPC? I spend nearly $20,000 a month in PPC advertising. Half of that is Google AdWords, the other half is everywhere else. And it's well worth every penny. I've been doing PPC search engine advertising since 2001 (started on Overture) and the number I've come up with is really a "best value" for me. If I spend LESS than what I'm spending, I get less business. If I spend MORE than what I'm spending I don't get any more business. It took me a couple years to get the figures right and get the best bang for the buck, it will no doubt take you just as long.
I personally know more people spending around what I'm spending than people spending the numbers you gave. So if the "average" you came up with is based on people you know, it's not accurate. Nor would it be accurate for me to say there are more people spending 5 figures - I really have no idea. Advertising is what you make of it. If you advertise small, your sales will be small. Advertise big and your sales will be big - as long as you're advertising in the right places.
It doesn't get any more targeted than pay per click. It's the ONLY form of advertising where you are GUARANTEED that you're only paying for prospects who are interested in your product or class of products. You don't get that on radio, television, newspapers, banner advertising, spamming, whatever.
Here is my suggestion for you: talk to your bank. If your credit score justifies it, of course. If your score is high enough, you won't even have to justify any numbers or what your plans are, just tell them you want to expand your business and that will be all you have to say. If you have less than perfect credit, but still good enough to get a loan, show them what you're spending on PPC advertising and what you're getting out of it. Explain to them how PPC works, how targeted it is, etc... and how much money other people are making by spending more. Also explain how PPC advertising is "instant gratification" it's not like TV or radio where repition is key (make sure you go into this thorougly, as bankers won't get it off hand).
If you're confident in your turn-over rate and your website's ability to sell your user, start small and borrow $10,000. Dump it into AdWords, Overture, or wherever you find to be the most effective PPC market for your keywords (or spread it out, it's up to you) and if you're ready to receive the extra business you'll probably make your 10k back that first month and then some. Do the smart thing and pay off the loan IMMEDIATELY, and use whatever extra money you made to fund next month's advertising and continue this until you've got enough in the bank to constantly spend whatever you want. That's how I started.
Do the math ... what are you making vs. what you're spending in advertising? If you're spending $100 a month and getting $500 in return (from NEW PPC business now, forget repeat visitors and non-PPC visitors) then you're getting a 500% return on your advertising dollars which is GREAT. If that number could increase according to your spend, then spending $1,000 could return $2,500 - $5,000 or spending $10,000 could return $25,000 - 50,000, etc. (I dropped the return in half as traditionally each multiple of 10 reduces the effectiveness by 50%... complicated formula based on my own experience, it may work for you it may not but better safe than sorry).
Also take a couple of things into consideration:
(1) What are you SELLING - will more exposure equal more sales, or is it a specialty product that no matter how many people you show it to only a handful will want them. For example, selling common house-hold items vs. ancient artifacts. More exposure = more sales for household items, but for artifacts you're selling to a select group who will FIND YOU - more advertising won't help. You get the idea.
(2) What percentage of your new PPC visitors are turning into sales? I use iWebTrack's web stats service to see how my PPC ads are doing, since it's the only one I've found that gives me as much detail about dollar for dollar PPC results, how many sales resulted from each keyword, etc. Regardless of what stats service you use, if you can get this data in your hands do it and figure it out. If not, sign up for iwebtrack or a different stats service that DOES do this - it is probably the single most important tool to calculate campaign effectiveness. Once you have this data, work on turning a higher percentage of visitors into buyers by tailoring your site to what they're looking for (assuming you sell multiple products) or focus on rewording your site to make people WANT TO BUY if you only sell a single product.
A good book on the subject is Mind Control Marketing by Mark Joyner. It will teach you how to write copy that makes people want to buy, sometimes even if they don't really have that much of a use for the product. Funny and sneaky, but it works :P
Anyway - I would advise doing this BEFORE you go and get some extra spending money from the bank. Then once you're as optimized as you can be, go burn through 5 figures and your sales will increase at an exponential rate - most likely enough to pay off the loan right away and continue the 5 figure advertising down the road.
uffff, I dont want to argue, just wake up and smell the coffee. Of course you can pay just for inclusion - $299.
Same thing for google - you pay me, I'll place your link on my home page and your website will be indexed within 3 days - i guarantee you.
If you want to go cheap - please, do. You know what I think of when I read your posts - the "free" signs on the side of the road " Make $500 a day working from home".
You either play the game by the rules or you dont play the game. If you decide to start a home based internet business, you need a business plan as any other "real world" business.
If you have non-profit website - you dont have to be "top of the search engine" - you will have a community. If you dont - your site is useless. I dont see any blogs as #1 for my keywords, but some still get thousands of hits daily.
And nothing wrong in getting thousands of hits. Isn't that what we all want?
Let's drop this...
uffff, I dont want to argue, just wake up and smell the coffee. Of course you can pay just for inclusion - $299.
>>no. that doesnt get you into the serps. Theoretically it will get you crawled (they say)but thats another matter of debate. It also wont get you past a ban.
>>Same thing for google - you pay me, I'll place your link on my home page and your website will be indexed within 3 days - i guarantee you. <<
yes, but im not sure what this has to do with the original topic of debate which was about being banned from yahoo.
>>If you want to go cheap - please, do. You know what I think of when I read your posts - the "free" signs on the side of the road " Make $500 a day working from home". >>
thats peculiar because most of my posts are not about me personally. They are about my views on the way Yahoo are proceeding. I dont ask for a free lunch. I think its fair to point out the frailties inherrent in their current policy.
>>You either play the game by the rules or you dont play the game. If you decide to start a home based internet business, you need a business plan as any other "real world" business. <<
>>If you have non-profit website - you dont have to be "top of the search engine" - you will have a community. If you dont - your site is useless. I dont see any blogs as #1 for my keywords, but some still get thousands of hits daily. <<
I dont think this is true at all. Many information sites are not based around communities. I dont follow that logic at all. It also skips over the pont that we are talking about the search engines ability to find them. Its not a case of needing to be top, its a case of hopefully they WILL be top.
>>And nothing wrong in getting thousands of hits. Isn't that what we all want? <<
i dont recall saying there was anything wrong with that. I said not companies can make it pay given that its not even based on your own paid for keywords. Many can make i pay, many cant or are non-profit is what i said.
>>Let's drop this...<<
ooops! didnt spot that till the end. next time put that at the beginning. :-)
Thanks to all
>>>>2 much: If I were you, I would think of alternative solutions that remove your dependency on Yahoo. If they are not fixing your domain - get another one. Point your existing domain to your new one and try to build link pop for the new domain. It might take you some time but at least it'll give you a fresh start.
As to Tim's answers to you - think of how many sites & situations he's dealing with. I think you should give him a break and appreciate that he is trying to help.>>>
Actually I am appreciated for his help, I am only confused. Canīt and donīt want to have bad thinkings, Therefore I suspect that maybe my site has some redirection problem as several others have, that makes it imposible to be reincluded and spidered even if had penalty lifted.
I have been thinking of getting an new domain, but is playing with fire..... If I did what you suggested, what will happens with all my backlinks and ranking in google for actual domain?
My thought was getting an new domain, same companyname, using .net instead of .com, having an duplicated site, and not allowing any other spider than slurp to spider it. But what if google get problems and spideres it.......will be penalized for duplicate content.
And maybe when all that is done, I am in Yahoo, I canīt believe they will keep on as this always, an question of time, I belive.
if you 301 the old site to the new Google will credit all your links to the new, eventually!
actually we are all assuming Yahoo allows a 301 from a banned site. Is there any evidence that the ban is passed on?
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