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Yahoo Search Engine and Directory Forum

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Yahoo Inclusion Program
Trying to clear up some misunderstanding in this forum
Tim




msg:822988
 10:02 pm on Feb 27, 2004 (gmt 0)

The primary means of generating our index is via our free crawl, using our new Yahoo! Slurp crawler. Yahoo! Slurp discovers pages by following links on the web. We update our index with a daily crawl to gather newly created and fast-changing URLs, as well as our main crawl which updates our index incrementally twice per week.

We supplement this free crawl with the paid inclusion program, which allows us to add dynamic database content and other content that we could not otherwise discover and crawl. Currently less than 1% of our index is content that is included via our inclusion programs.

Our paid inclusion programs provide a superior way for sites to interact with us in a clearly structured fashion. These sites get the following
benefits:
1) Control over which URLs they include in the index (subject to content
guidelines)
2) Frequent refresh
3) Clearly defined way to interact with us (for example: clear feed
specifications)
4) Quality review and consultation (for feed customers)
5) Detailed reporting to track and optimize performance
6) Customer service

Participation in Yahoo!'s paid inclusion program does not guarantee rank in the search results. URLs are ranked in search results in the same way as all other URLs from the free crawl. The key drivers of ranking are keyword-specific relevance and site quality, as assessed by our regular search relevance algorithms with input from the quality review process.

(Note that Inktomi Index Connect clients are receiving Yahoo! Search traffic going forward, and Inktomi Search Submit customers are receiving a free trial of Yahoo! traffic until 4/15/04.)

We will also be launching free URL submission during the week of 3/1. This service allows content providers to suggest that the crawler should visit a site during the main crawl cycle. This service is different than paid inclusion in two ways:

1) There is no guarantee that we will crawl and include the URL in the index.
2) As this site potentially could be added to the main crawl, Yahoo! Slurp will follow links from that URL.

This service will reside on the Yahoo.com site and be accessible via a Yahoo! login. This service has been available for the AltaVista and Alltheweb Indices previously and the tradition will continue with Yahoo! Search.

 

Kirby




msg:823018
 5:30 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

>I should have added that Yahoo NEVER said they were replacing Google search results with Inktomi's.

Not true. Yahoo said a few months ago that Ink would be the basis. The quote was posted in WW. Hopefully I can find in the next few hours...

cashmere




msg:823019
 5:39 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

You don't have to look that far - from the Y search submit page:

"Inktomi Inclusion Programs: Make sure your site is available to search users on Yahoo! and other major portals. Benefit from rapid submission, frequent refresh, and detailed reporting to track and optimize performance. Pricing is per-URL or per-click."

So it's easy to see how someone might get that impression.

I'm not commenting on what might actually happen. I hope it becomes clearer, and I hope their new paid inclusion isn't too onerous or obligatory for small biz.

Kirby




msg:823020
 5:40 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Found it. Terry Semel, in this article [internetnews.com]:

"Our short-term goal will be to have [the Yahoo! network throughout] the entire world using our algorithmic search in Inktomi," said Terry Semel, CEO of Yahoo!, speaking yesterday at the Smith Barney Citigroup Entertainment, Media and Telecommunications Conference in Phoenix. "We really feel that we've only just begun. We've been working very closely with both Inktomi and Overture outside of the U.S. We've been introducing both of those platforms to our search outside of the U.S."

cashmere




msg:823021
 5:44 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

nice - but algorithm!= database.

I mean they could indeed be using an Inktomi algo, but that doesn't mean they are keeping the Inktomi db.

Kirby




msg:823022
 5:53 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

I think it is pretty clear at this point, but it easy to understand the confusion from earlier statements. Blame it on semantics ;)

steveb




msg:823023
 7:53 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

"this is not what was contracted for."

Um, that's what I said. Please don't confuse the issues.

What was contracted for was for what had been the status quo... pfi gets you in MSN.

So far as I'm concerned, basically anything Yahoo does with Yahoo is a fresh start. They can do what they want. But Inktomi, via resellers, has had existing commitments to people to feed MSN and other minor entities. Yahoo owns Inktomi, and Inktomi seems to like it may evaporate, as it seems reasonable that all these separate entities would do. Yahoo takes all its stuff and bundles it together and calls it Yahoo search technology.

The basic question is, what is going to feed MSN? The secondary question is how Inktomi PFI and any future PFI will relate to MSN?

Dynamoo




msg:823024
 8:21 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

pfi gets you in MSN.

For now. Right up until MSN bring in their own technology which will kill off Inktomi stone dead, I presume.

Well.. that's no more Inktomi PFI orders from me then.

Added: this is typical Yahoo in my opinion. Coax money out of webmasters and then shaft them. I know people who were wiped out when Yahoo effectively killed off their directory.. this looks like another attempt to do the same.

mikeD




msg:823025
 11:17 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

I think Google is melllttttinggg....like the wicked witch of the west.

What's so funny to see is Google actually giving the enemy (Yahoo and MSN) the gun and the ammo to take Google down with (Florida update, etc... word filters).

I, for one, am not even going to bother trying to optimize for Google again because it is a total waste of time.

Thought this was a yahoo forum?

But I think you are making a massive mistake ignoring Google. They still have a massive majority of search traffic, much more than Yahoo. And I seriously doubt this will change. Plus all I see is spammy keyword rich pages in Yahoo at the top. All Google is trying to do with it's new filters is have quality serps for the user, not the webmaster. This is what a search engine's main focus should be. Not taking the money from spammers and running.

aly4848




msg:823026
 11:59 am on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Tim
I use PFI heavily with INK and it's very viable for me so I'm happy to do the same with Yahoo (it would be nice to have it for free but there are no free lunches these days! )
The trial bit is great as it will allow me a period to play about and check viability.
I am a UK customer and Yahoo is still using Google results.
Can you confirm if Yahoo.co.uk will be swopping over so UK customers will get the benefit of the free trial or is it just for US customers?

tigger




msg:823027
 12:21 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

yes its about time the new results were on .uk so any ideas when this will happen

mikeD




msg:823028
 12:38 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

yes its about time the new results were on .uk so any ideas when this will happen

I hope his doesn't happen, results need to improve for the UK.

elguiri




msg:823029
 1:28 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Itís a little disingenuous to say that Yahoo never said it was going to use the Ink database and that we had no right to expect inclusion in Yahoo.

As professionals we spend a lot of time working to keep within certain rules laid down by the search engines. Yahoo has no doubt enjoyed a large boost in Ink PFI revenues over the last six months. If they didnít know why, they must have been the only ones. So did they dispel the rumours? No, they fired them up with statements like the one Kirby tracked down.

Everything is correct,legal and certainly within the bounds of ďwe never saidÖĒ but to call it anything other than an act of bad faith is naÔve. If search engines want webmasters to play fair this is hardly the way to go.

It has left me with a rather nasty taste in the mouth, but like most of us here, Iíll no doubt be getting my credit card out come April and Yahoo knows that. Nonetheless, letting down your paying customers not once but twice is not likely to be good for business in the long run - or am I now being naÔve?

iThink




msg:823030
 2:05 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

I'd like to hear about the cost of new Yahoo PFI to be able to plan for this new expenditure. Tim, any info on that?

Compworld




msg:823031
 2:14 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

I never said to ignore Google, just this now allows use to have other players into the game. Therefore, it really balances the SEO world out. You have Yahoo, MSFT (coming soon to a browser near you), and Google. There is also a BIG chance that MSFT will destroy either Yahoo or Google, then acquire that company and make it part of the MSN Network. Gates wants to have that section of his empire, I mean company, start becoming profitable within a reasonable time frame. So, that is another possibility. After all, with over 50 billion in the MSFT bank and I guess you might be able to add his own 46 billion. You have about 100 billion dollars to go shopping. Changes are that the money in the MSFT vault is would more than enough to make MSN a major, if not the only, player in this ball game. Then again, I do not really see the Yahoo boss taking orders from Redmond so quickly. After all, they already own so much of the leading PPC/search engines. It looks like Google is a better target to go public (some how), then be immediately snatched up (similar to what eBay did with Paypal) and become the newest edition to the MSFT empire. Plus, I do not think that the DOJ or EU would jump all over MSFT if they buy Google over Yahoo. Google doesn't own Overture, Alta Vista, FAST Tech, etc. Google would also need some big guns to put up a good fight against Yahoo. So, after everything blows over, I would put my money on Google being snatched up and becoming a sub company of MSFT. Then it would be MSFT vs Yahoo. Now, that would be an interesting fight. Then again, Gates likes to make things hard on programmers, so it would also mean some coding changes because they would have a completely different set of rules than Yahoo would have. Ahhh! Itís getting complicated again!

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

CompWorld

Essex_boy




msg:823032
 2:22 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

The king is dead long live the King.

This is just whats needed. Cant wait.

Rugles




msg:823033
 3:17 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Tim

If we are currently in the index and all looks well, would you suggest we do nothing at this point. Or, will things change after you launch this inclusion program?

258cib




msg:823034
 3:17 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

This makes a heck of a lot of sense to me, a user of search. As long as Y doesn't sell out completely to the high bidder, which they will not, paid inclusion provides that "filter" that everyone is looking for in the vast majority of cases. This will be better than LSI in coming up with useful results. AND everyone can understand it.

Easy_Coder




msg:823035
 3:27 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Tim -

When will the Paid Inclusion program kickoff and what can we expect in terms of cost?

webvisitor




msg:823036
 4:16 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)
Yahoo is brilliant. They know everyone will do what it takes to remain in YHOO SERPs. They are contracted to MSN to provide OVER ads and INK. sites. They reduce their dependance on INK themselves after absorbing their data and integrating their patents into the new YSP.
MSN will be recieving Yahoos "leftovers", results Yahoo won't put up front, and MSN becomes less relevant than they were with LookSmart! MSN never saw this coming.
As a matter of fact Tims description of the new Yahoo search is very similar to LookSmart original description of PI.
Semel is a genius. And lets face it, the SEOs and SEMs are the only ones who will squawk to any degree.
Great job Semel.
tigger




msg:823037
 4:41 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>When will the Paid Inclusion program kickoff and what can we expect in terms of cost?

I think it's 14/04

ILuvSrchEngines




msg:823038
 6:57 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

"Plus all I see is spammy keyword rich pages in Yahoo at the top"

One mans spam is another mans ham. At least Yahoo results aren't filtered. I can still find what I am looking for there. Call it spam all you want, what ever makes you feel good. I now use Yahoo as my primary search engine. I do not think I am alone. It's kinda funny to still see Google cheerleaders out there after what they have done. That's my 2 cents. ;-)

hazardtomyself




msg:823039
 7:27 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Yes all the above questions.

Tim, thanks for your contributions both now and in the future. It looks like you'll be getting a lot of action now. Many of us have awaited for the Yahoo! Search to step up and be the Mother Ship it has always been.

onfire




msg:823040
 7:47 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Tim
If we are currently in the index and all looks well, would you suggest we do nothing at this point. Or, will things change after you launch this inclusion program?

Thats my question too! and i think also for many many others as well.

onlineshrine




msg:823041
 8:59 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Personally in the struggle between Yahoo, Microsoft and Google I am in favor of Google. Inktomi's search results are pretty bad, so I hope Yahoo is starting pretty much fresh.

But keep in mind one thing. Google offers a really clean interface for their search results. Very uncluttered. Yahoo and MSN tend to clutter up the results pages with Overture ads and what not, where Google works in their AdWords ads much more tastefully. I think this is a big deal from a user experience perspective and should not be underestimated.

mikeD




msg:823042
 9:28 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

One mans spam is another mans ham.

This maybe so for the webmasters, I doubt this statement holds true for the user. This has always been Google's main priority. I just get the feeling Yahoo is more interested in the bucks rather than the results. I really hope I am wrong and Yahoo challenges Google. I agree with most webmasters that Google does need valid competition. I just feel the Yahoo results are poor at the moment. The fact Yahoo are not using any filters maybe a good thing, but in my sector presently all the good quality content driven sites are being beaten by spammy / keyword rich sites. A friend of mines 3 year old site which hasn't been touched for 1-2 years (poor google pr, and an early SEO spammy keyword rich site) is currently doing great in Yahoo. His main site (ranks great on google) is based on the same topic and is updated daily with good content can't be found. This is a problem Yahoo needs to sort.

258cib




msg:823043
 10:07 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)


MikeD says
I just get the feeling Yahoo is more interested in the bucks rather than the results. I really hope I am wrong and Yahoo challenges Google.

I understand this concern and I think many feel this way, but it's my hope, in regards to Y and G is that the users will determine value. There should be a good balance between commercial and popular that equals useful. Just "popular" might not be that "useful" or "fair." ("Tacky" is very popular.)

This might not be as true in local search, however, where commercial interests might rule with a heavier hand than the popular. I'm watching this carefully.

stcrim




msg:823044
 10:49 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

You know Google Guy works weekends and nights answering and being helpful here. Anybody seen Tim since he started this thread?

My only question is - does this really mean people have to pay for INK/MSN and pay again for Yahoo - the whole while knowing MSN is about to crawl up the shorts of both Yahoo and Google with their own search engine.

There's an old guy that lives here on the Gulf Coast that said right after Hurricane Freddy - "you reckon' they'd a known builing a house on sand that wasn't that 30 years ago wasn't smart".

Wonder what he'd say to this?

-s-

Tim




msg:823045
 11:36 pm on Feb 28, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hey Stcrim,
The pubconference has been these past few days. The hotel has very dodgy web access as anyone can attest to who was staying at the clarion and I have been busy meeting people face to face. I will try to answer some of these questions in the next hour or so.
Tim

[edited by: Tim at 12:26 am (utc) on Feb. 29, 2004]

Tim




msg:823046
 12:23 am on Feb 29, 2004 (gmt 0)

A couple of clarifications based on questions:

1. Sites that submit pages through paid inclusion are not penalized for having submitted through this program

2. Customers who have already paid for the current Inktomi program will continue to get all the benefits they have paid for - distribution across the pre-Yahoo! Inktomi network. As an additional bonus, they will get 60 days of free traffic on the new Yahoo! distribution.

3. The new single URL program will be sold directly via Overture as well as via channel resellers such as Positiontech.

4. If you are currently in the index and all looks well I would continue creating more great content that we can crawl for free. I think the only change you will see in the future is greater comprehensiveness and freshness.

The new program will kick off in the next week or two. I will post details on pricing and other features as soon as announced and be available to answer questions.

helenp




msg:823047
 12:27 am on Feb 29, 2004 (gmt 0)

sorry Tim........:)
What about the "penalized sites for ever by Inktomi"
you said they were going to discuss if keep that or leaving it.

Seems sort of pay if penalized..............

Thanks Tim

Tim




msg:823048
 12:36 am on Feb 29, 2004 (gmt 0)

We are looking into having a feature in the new program where we will rereview your site when you enter the program and give you a chance to get off the blacklist. I will let you know if and when this feature is available.

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