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Yahoo Inclusion Program
Trying to clear up some misunderstanding in this forum
Tim




msg:822988
 10:02 pm on Feb 27, 2004 (gmt 0)

The primary means of generating our index is via our free crawl, using our new Yahoo! Slurp crawler. Yahoo! Slurp discovers pages by following links on the web. We update our index with a daily crawl to gather newly created and fast-changing URLs, as well as our main crawl which updates our index incrementally twice per week.

We supplement this free crawl with the paid inclusion program, which allows us to add dynamic database content and other content that we could not otherwise discover and crawl. Currently less than 1% of our index is content that is included via our inclusion programs.

Our paid inclusion programs provide a superior way for sites to interact with us in a clearly structured fashion. These sites get the following
benefits:
1) Control over which URLs they include in the index (subject to content
guidelines)
2) Frequent refresh
3) Clearly defined way to interact with us (for example: clear feed
specifications)
4) Quality review and consultation (for feed customers)
5) Detailed reporting to track and optimize performance
6) Customer service

Participation in Yahoo!'s paid inclusion program does not guarantee rank in the search results. URLs are ranked in search results in the same way as all other URLs from the free crawl. The key drivers of ranking are keyword-specific relevance and site quality, as assessed by our regular search relevance algorithms with input from the quality review process.

(Note that Inktomi Index Connect clients are receiving Yahoo! Search traffic going forward, and Inktomi Search Submit customers are receiving a free trial of Yahoo! traffic until 4/15/04.)

We will also be launching free URL submission during the week of 3/1. This service allows content providers to suggest that the crawler should visit a site during the main crawl cycle. This service is different than paid inclusion in two ways:

1) There is no guarantee that we will crawl and include the URL in the index.
2) As this site potentially could be added to the main crawl, Yahoo! Slurp will follow links from that URL.

This service will reside on the Yahoo.com site and be accessible via a Yahoo! login. This service has been available for the AltaVista and Alltheweb Indices previously and the tradition will continue with Yahoo! Search.

 

extremegolfer




msg:823348
 6:14 am on Mar 5, 2004 (gmt 0)

I am very impressed by the knowledge of some of the people on this board! Does anyone know if MSN, and Hotbot are going to pick up the same sites that Yahoo picks up? I just sumitted my site on the "free crawl" of Yahoo. Are MSN and Hotbot going to pick up my site as well?

Maybe this is a question that Tim can best answer...

Tim




msg:823349
 6:28 am on Mar 5, 2004 (gmt 0)

SiteMatch and Addurl are entry ways into the entire distribution network.

extremegolfer




msg:823350
 6:42 am on Mar 5, 2004 (gmt 0)

Tim,

Thank you. I appreciate the fact that you are on at this time and responding! Others are saying Yahoo will list websites within a few weeks, but MSN, and Hotbot will take months. Could you estimate how long it would take for MSN, Hotbot, Altavista, and the rest to add my site. I am new to webdesigning (at the age of 62) so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance.

isugari




msg:823351
 7:44 pm on Mar 5, 2004 (gmt 0)

SiteMatch can take 3-4 business days. Yahoo's free ADDURL, not sure how long that will take ... the page says "Expect a delay of several weeks before your URL is crawled".

redzone




msg:823352
 8:03 pm on Mar 5, 2004 (gmt 0)

TrafficL

Your statement about fake pages is way out of bounds.
Ink's editorial staff maintains strict guidelines about the content that can be included in the CPC based XML inclusion feed data.
Content in the feed must also exist on the actual page. There must be a 1 - to - 1 relationship between inclusion pages, and "actual" content pages.

The advantages of the inclusion feed do allow tuning of the Title/Keyword/Description tag values.

Because there is a one to one relationship, Inktomi applies the link popularity, as if the actual content page was indexed. (There is no artificial boost relation)...

Also, the AskJeeves "lip service" was just a bunch of crap..
Go to ask and do a search on "new cars"...
You get 1 dedicated sponsored ad, then 10 Google AdWords ads, before you even get to the web results where Teoma IndexExpress results would be displayed...

The reason that Lanzone said the program wasn't paying off, was that the Teoma inclusion URL's were buried so deep under other sponsored results. This meant in a signifigantly low volume of inclusion click throughs, along with the fact that Teoma has such a small distribution of their SERP's. The bottom line was because of the above 2 factors, the cost of doing business was more than the income the IndexExpress system could generate.

Ask used a target metric of .5 click throughs per inclusion URL, per month, as an acceptable CTR volume..

It's simply less costly to automatically stuff Google AdWords listings in the AskJeeves SERP's, and split the rev's w/ G....

Ink had a big head start on Ask, has a much larger distribution channel (MSN/Yahoo), and a solid infrastucture. The program has worked well for the past few years, for many advertisers.

mquarles




msg:823353
 11:28 pm on Mar 5, 2004 (gmt 0)

Your statement about fake pages is way out of bounds.
Ink's editorial staff maintains strict guidelines about the content that can be included in the CPC based XML inclusion feed data.
Content in the feed must also exist on the actual page. There must be a 1 - to - 1 relationship between inclusion pages, and "actual" content pages.

Anyone who has set up trusted feeds with Ink knows that they do not take spam fighting lightly in this area. I have found that it is far, far harder to get spam into trusted feed than into free Ink (or Google, for that matter).

At the same time, it has to be treated differently because of the nature of the data, and this could cause some complexities and challenges over time, but they are not new issues for Ink.

MQ

invader




msg:823354
 1:15 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

More than 99 percent of Yahoo's search index will consist of Web links that don't pay fees, said Tim Cadogan, the company's vice president of search.

But the fact is, that 99% are pages that are not the first two SERP's, and no one goes that far. What people will see, and click, will be paid. And if the paid results are mixed with the free ones, there is a lesser chance that people will pay. As is mentioned in the press releases and other places, this is more for bigger players, which is obvious, since Yahoo likes green paper.

The fact is, that they can never beat Google, who are based on an open source model, which is not as much money oriented, somewhat.
Example -> DMOZ.
An open project. Impossible to beat, unless Bill Gates decides to pay for everybody's PI in Yahoo's directory, or SiteMatch.

I don't think it's madness. Keep your eye on the user experience, not the number of webmasters who are happy or unhappy.

What will the user get? I'll pay and i'll rise in the SERP. Even if my content is a degree lower.

I talked with Jeff Weiner the senior VP of search at yahoo last night. He was adament that they are going to crawl the entire web for free. Their intention is to find every public page available and put it in the index.

What is the logic behind that?
Because people will look at the first 2-3 pages which will be paid, mostly.
The bottom line is, that Yahoo is a company, and they want money. They are not here for donation.

Ok, people read the post by Tim that started this thread:
Participation in Yahoo!'s paid inclusion program does not guarantee rank in the search results. URLs are ranked in search results in the same way as all other URLs from the free crawl.

That gives me even lesser reason to pay.
Who knows if you come into the 2nd or 3rd page cause of less relevancy of a search keyword and then get clicked and stripped of your money? Insane idea.
Don't they have better economics people there?

Edit : Grammar

[edited by: invader at 3:53 am (utc) on Mar. 6, 2004]

kanetrain




msg:823355
 1:17 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

You're not going to get spam into xml datafeeds to Yahoo. Period.
Paid Inclusion is going to provide virtually spam free listings, not doubt about that.

TrafficL




msg:823356
 2:40 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)


redzone - I understand that there is usually a 1 to 1 relationship between the "real" page and the "fake" page, but the fact is that it is still not the "real" page in the end (also in many cases they make exceptions for the 1 to 1 rule in cases like travel where there ARE no real pages!)

You can call it whatever you like, but the truth is that XML feed pages are false pages that are cloaked such that people never see the "false" page that is actually indexed.

What you are saying is that you think Ask Jeeves Executives are lying when they explained that it is "virtually impossible" to treat fake XML data feeds the same as "real" pages.

The fact is, AskJeeves also did admit that part of the reason they gave up on the XML feeds was because it was not making as much money as they wanted. But their main focus was on the fact that the feeds were damaging the relevancy.

Ask Jeeves stated that they understood that in the end, they would make more money by gaining the trust of their users by providing truly relevant results that were not compromised by "false" paid inclusion listings.

GuinnessGuy




msg:823357
 3:20 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Greetings,

First of all, I'm very confused. Originally I thought that there was a paid inclusion that was on a per page per year basis and NOT on that PLUS a pay per click. Now after reading here I get the impression that it will include pay per click. Is this correct? Will there be no way to just pay to be included without paying per click?

Also, our index page is very highly ranked in Google but is no where to be found(except with a referrer code attached to it, i.e. - www.mydomain.com/?referrer=1234) yet we have two subpages that are in the top five. Does this mean that we are in no way under some sort of penalty? In other words, are penalties handed out on a per URL basis or is it for a whole site? If it's handed out on a whole site basis(which I suspect), then I can't understand why the index page would be at the top in Google and virtually non-existent in the Yahoo rankings. One other thing - the two subdomain pages are fairly new(less than six months old) while the index page has existed for years.

GuinnessGuy

stcrim




msg:823358
 3:43 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Where is Yahoo in all this - Google Guy would have had all these questions answered and be waiting for more? I don't always agree with GG, I sure do respect his integrity, sense of humor and odd hours he spends on these boards clearing up what he can.

What Yahoo isn't saying speaks much louder than what they have said...

All of you defending and cheering Yahoo on should think twice about their lack of participation in a thread they started!

-s-

Justinnerd




msg:823359
 3:53 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Stcrim,
you should read the entire thread before complaining. The Yahoo Rep on this subject is Tim, and he answered many of the questions on this thread.

stcrim




msg:823360
 4:07 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Though I don't have time to count them I would guess there is 10 or more questions unanswered for everyone one that's had a Yahoo PR answer.

The bottom line is very few sites are going to be able to afford this and Yahoo is going to have to find a way out of this or follow the same path as Inktomi.

I think part of the lack of Yahoo's answers here may have to do with legal advice telling them to take care in what they say here because it's a written record that may constitute promises/contracts.

-s-

simondev2




msg:823361
 8:27 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Anyone see their results in yahoo yet via site match? I submitted on 3/3 but still nothing yet. If it was the only inktomi program I would have seen it in MSN by now. I'm checking my server logs and it doesn't appear to have been spidered yet.

cbpayne




msg:823362
 8:33 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Anyone see their results in yahoo yet via site match?

What are you expecting to see in the results?

troyid




msg:823363
 11:48 am on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hey Tim,

I'm sure you are finding it hard to keep up with this thread but I would sure like you to respond to a message posted by NoCarrier about any positives of SiteMatch

johannamck




msg:823364
 5:00 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

This has been mentioned in previous comments but I don't think there's been a conclusive answer yet...

Off-topic clicks and the PFI/PPC program.

Example:
If someone has a marketing company specializing in Asia, with a page on marketing to Asian teens... they would want to pay for clicks concerning "marketing Asia" or "marketing to Asian teens" but not for many clicks from creeps looking for "Asian teens".

Does Site Match account for that and if yes, how?

kanetrain




msg:823365
 6:18 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

GuinnessGuy - It sounds like you have been nailed with the infamous Ink (Now Yahoo) "Vanishing Home page" penalty. Even up until about a month ago, even the PFI resellers covered their eyes and wouldn't admit to the problem. Now it's a pretty well known fact.

Let me guess... you submitted part of your site (particularly, your home page to Inktomi for inclusion throgh one of their resellers). Now your homepage is gone even if you do a search for your exact title. The only way you can find it is if you do a search for "h#tp://yourexacturl.com". If I am right, it appears that you have been penalized. By submitting your page to PFI, you unwittingly put your site in "danger" of some kind of automated penalty that isn't applied to non-PFI sites.

This is a very widespread problem with Ink (now Yahoo). I see posts about it all over the internet now. You can check the paid inclusion forum for more details. Most of those hit with the penalty have one thing in common, dynamic redirects (really just dynamic links from outside sites) to their page are showing up in the serps instead of the real page... indicating that the redirect is being treated as the "real" page and the real page is getting hit with a penalty for duplicate content. There are other reasons for the penalty (obviously), but this seems to be the overwhelming consensus among webmasters.

Apparently, this entire problem is tripped by an automated filter that was/is only applied to PFI pages. Unfortunately, this automated filter was too tight or wasn't *smart* enough. I'm praying that Yahoo doesn't use the same filter with the new Search Submit. The problem will reach epidemic proportions if they do. If word gets out that they submitting your site to "Search Submit" puts your site in danger or getting phantomed out for life it will be a PR nightmare. I won't use Yahoo Search Submit until I'm sure that they have fixed this issue. Once they do get it fixed, I'll use it for some of my high ticket items.

Anyway, send an email to webmasterworldfeedback@yahoo.com and explain the exact situation. If there is anything that you may have done to get penalized, tell them what you have done to change it. They seem to respond pretty quickly. If you meet all the criteria above, I can almost guarantee that you were hit with the "vanishing PFI penalty" also called the "PFI phantom curse". Best of luck to you.

flobaby




msg:823366
 6:46 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

really just dynamic links from outside sites

Not even limited to links from outside sites. My index disappeared due to a non-dynamic internal redirect.

GuinnessGuy




msg:823367
 8:26 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hi Kanetrain,

Thanks for your post. Very interesting.

First of all, I'm 99% sure that we've never submitted the site to Ink's PFI. However, we bought the site some 20 months ago and I can't say whether the previous site owner submitted to Ink's PFI. Nonetheless, we certainly changed the content for the index page dramatically after buying it so I don't see how any duplicate content issues could arise even if he did. On the other hand, I did submit our site to ATW's free inclusion. Is ATW and Ink related at all?

Your main point that dynamic links to our site are seen as distinct URL's from the straight forward link, i.e. - [mydomain.com...] would certainly cause Ink to conclude erroneously that our site has duplicate content is an interesting theory. It would, in fact, explain everything. BTW - our site is totally clean so there shouldn't be any other issues.

And thanks for that email address. I will write Ink, explain everything and cross my fingers. This penalty has really jeopardized my livelihood. :(

thecheat




msg:823368
 8:53 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Yes...from what I have read, here is how you can get your site banned from Yahoo:

Recipe for disaster is the following:
1. Submit your home page for Paid Inclusion with Yahoo (this could be Ink, all the web, or alta vista).
2. Other site links to you with a dynamic link and/or you use 301's to redirect removed pages to your home page.
3. Your site get hits with a penalty. You are gone forever with no recourse, explanation or help.
4. Welcome to the *hidden* Yahoo PFI blacklist.

You get penalized for life just for paying them money. The most troubling are the stories where the site has done absolutely nothing wrong. There are plenty of these over in the PFI forum and on other sites around the web. Start reading around and you will be absolutely shocked. Iíve even read where Inktomi editorial staff members have looked at the site and said there was nothing wrong. I guess the PFI resellers didnít even know about this *hidden* PFI penalty and they didnít have the power to remove it. Scary.

Positiontech and other resellers wouldn't admit to the bug for months. I heard that at pucon, Tim admitted that it was a problem although I wasn't there, so I don't know if that is true or not. I have asked him about it a few times in this thread, but he neglects to address this issue. This is probably a really good indication that it is a bug in Yahoo and that he doesn't want to publicly admit it.

This vanishing page has not happened to me personally, or any of my clients sites, but after reading about the problem, I pulled all of their PFI pages anyway.

I have read about it all over the place and where there's smoke, there's fire. I will stay miles and miles away from Yahoo Search Submit PFI until Yahoo can fix this bug. I refuse to put my client's sites in danger of the Yahoo bug until they get it fixed. I think it would be a great fit for a few of my clients sites (ecommerce sites with very high ticket items), but I will not even consider PFI until Yahoo gets this straightened out. I find it shocking that they had this bug and none of the resellers or Ink staff would admit to it or fix it for so long.

[edited by: thecheat at 9:03 pm (utc) on Mar. 6, 2004]

thecheat




msg:823369
 8:59 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

GuinessGuy -
You said: "First of all, I'm 99% sure that we've never submitted the site to Ink's PFI."

What would stop a competitor from paying Yahoo (Ink) for your sites inclusion if they knew that it could put you in danger of getting your page dropped? It's hypothetical, but very possible scenario.

I have mostly read about the biggest problems being with Ink, but now that Yahoo is merging all of them together, it's VERY possible for your PFI page with All the Web or alta vista to get unduly penalized.

Tim




msg:823370
 10:05 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hopefully the following addresses the most common questions:

Yahoo! Searchís objective is to discover every page on the web for free. That includes every conceivable kind of page Ė non-profit pages, commercial pages, personal home pages and even your posts on these message boards <g>. We make no distinctions as to the source of a page. With several billion documents our search index is already extremely comprehensive (more than 99% of the documents in this index are gathered through Yahoo! Slurp) and is only going to become more so. We firmly believe the quality of the results speak for themselves and invite you to come and try it out.

Our Content Acquisition Program (CAP) is designed to further improve the quality of our search results and offer a valuable service to both businesses and non-profits above and beyond the Yahoo! Slurp process. CAP helps us improve the quality of our results by enabling us to build deeper and more structured relationships with content providers. For example, some of the academic institutions we have partnered with can now work with us through XML feeds to get large digital collections into the search engine index. This allows us to present better results to users.

For businesses, Site Match is designed to provide a value-added service that takes away some of the guesswork around participating in search. The main benefits are the ability to proactively submit content to us, to receive guaranteed inclusion in the index, quality review, rapid refresh, customer service and reporting. These are valuable to many business Ė by way of example, we saw record sign-ups on our first day of operation. However, the program may not be valuable to everyone. We understand this Ė not everyone wants or needs the value-added service that Site Match offers. And thatís OK, because itís likely that we already have your site in the regular crawl, and if we donít yet, then we are working on getting it in over time. Itís critical to understand that we are out trying to discover all content on the web through our regular Yahoo! Slurp process.

Alongside launching CAP last week, we also recently added a free Add URL service. See the third link on this page: [submit.search.yahoo.com...] If your site is not in the index and you donít want to participate in Site Match, then provide us your URL here. We canít provide the same level of guarantees regarding inclusion, quality review or rapid refresh and we canít offer customer service and reporting, but it provides another way to interact with us.

Finally, the Site Match payment is not for placement or ranking in the web results. All Web pages are algorithmically ranked in the results based on their objective relevance to each specific search query in order to ensure the highest quality search experience for users.

caveman




msg:823371
 10:38 pm on Mar 6, 2004 (gmt 0)

And thatís OK, because itís likely that we already have your site in the regular crawl, and if we donít yet, then we are working on getting it in over time. Itís critical to understand that we are out trying to discover all content on the web through our regular Yahoo! Slurp process.

Y does have all of our sites in the regular SERP's. Sites.

But for any site including PFI pages, the non-PFI pages are nearly non-existant in the Y SERP's. The sites are in the Y directory. The sites enjoy lots of backlinks. But the non PFI pages do not appear.

Y can say it's trying hard, but honestly, if Y knows some of the pages in a site (from it's own directory, and PFI) Y should easily know of them all.

If Y told us that those sorts of pages are largely known to Y but just not appearing yet, and will start showing after 4/15, that would at least be believable. That's not what I'm hearing...

It's pretty clear that non-paid pages are not easily getting into the SERP's of some sites that also had PFI pages. The non-paid pages aren't hiding. They just weren't paid for. And the best I've heard with respect to those pages is "we are working on getting it in over time." One might read that as "we're hoping you'll pay for those pages too, since you've shown some interest in paying for pages from that site in the past."

I keep emphasizing that I hope I'm wrong, but I keep hearing things from Y! that make me fear that these pages are just being held for ransom. That's where most of the hard evidence is to date.

stcrim




msg:823372
 12:16 am on Mar 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

And hopefully someone from Yahoo will answer that most important question! If you pay for one page are all the rest dropped as a result - like Inktomi was and is to this day...

-s-

stcrim




msg:823373
 1:21 am on Mar 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

Tim - please clear up a few things:

1. >>>discover every page<<< That seems to be very carefully worded to say, but if you don't pay for it you will never be in the db - is that the case?

2. >>>receive guaranteed inclusion in the index<<< Does that mean no matter what a paid page will remain.

3. Does real estate cost twice what an adult page does because Yahoo is in the real estate and or travel business? Are they trying to freeze out others by keeping the price high.

4. Or are you just giving the "Adult Industry" a break because it's such a fine and moral product to offer your visitors?

-s-

Net_Wizard




msg:823374
 1:26 am on Mar 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

On a positive note...;)

My free included pages some of it are showing on the first page of not so competitive terms.

Finally, the Site Match payment is not for placement or ranking in the web results. All Web pages are algorithmically ranked in the results based on their objective relevance to each specific search query in order to ensure the highest quality search experience for users.

I certainly hope that this statement would hold true as long as the program exist.

However, how would we identify a paying url from non-payng url?

How would we know that the top20 are not loaded with paying url?

Are we just to assume that the serp is a mixture of paying and non-paying, rank according to true algo?

In short, we need some kind of indicator that the serp is 'honest' and the above statement is just not a smokescreen.

I say if Yahoo is sincere then it has a fair chance of going head to head with Google. If not...

there would be a lot of angry webmasters to deal with.

Fairla




msg:823375
 1:42 am on Mar 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

"Yahoo! Searchís objective is to discover every page on the web for free."

I find THAT very impressive, and that's what search engines (other than Google) have been desperately lacking for years! Yahoo for Yahoo!

Tim




msg:823376
 2:36 am on Mar 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

1. >>>discover every page<<< That seems to be very carefully worded to say, but if you don't pay for it you will never be in the db - is that the case?
No Steve we have a crawl that feeds 99% of the content in our index for free. We also have the free addurl program to supplement the free link crawl. There is also the Public SiteMatch program which includes pubic domain information (Library of Congress etc.) into our Index for free.

2. >>>receive guaranteed inclusion in the index<<< Does that mean no matter what a paid page will remain.
Assuming the content meets the content guidelines (is not considered spam)

Steve I will have to ask some other people about your questions on the pricing of SiteMatch as I am not involved in that topic.

Arctrust




msg:823377
 2:37 am on Mar 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

Lets discover pages....

We have over 2500 pages on Google.... 12 on Yahoo....( we had the same amount on Yahoo before they dropped Google)

How hard could discovering 10 more pages be?

Lets get real guys.... It is about money. When you discover your Discover credit card, Yahoo will "discover" you.

ARC

Tim




msg:823378
 2:49 am on Mar 7, 2004 (gmt 0)

Arctrust,
When we started our launch process we messaged that we would be rolling out new technology over the next few weeks. There will be significant changes to the crawl and Index over the next weeks so please be patient. The new Yahoo Search Technology is evolving over time and we are messaging our mission and our goals for the future. Right now we are working towards that goal and I understand based on the data that you have right now we need to keep working on becoming more comprehensive. Having talked to many people at pubconference and SES people, I have been told we are now crawling more aggressively than ever before. I think changes are being made for the better but you are not able to see the affects of these changes in the live index yet.
Tim

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