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Yahoo Search Engine and Directory Forum

This 247 message thread spans 9 pages: < < 247 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 > >     
The Switch Is Official
Brett_Tabke




msg:834149
 12:03 pm on Feb 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

According to some reports [news.com.com] yahoo is now ack'ing [webmasterworld.com] that the change to their "internally powered results" is offical. eg: goodbye Google.

 

Chicago




msg:834329
 5:01 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>It supplies content (in this case, search listings) to an audience, and it uses that audience to attract advertising

In the world of search, the content is the advertisers.

I would put my weight behind the quality of a pfi + algo versus a pure free algo anyday.

I am not sure that everyone will be able to see this, but go to Yahoo and type in a verticle-geo like ~ web design city (your city).

Many of those in major cities will find the following structure in their serp.

1. YAHOO! YELLOW PAGES web design listings near Chicago IL
2. Categories: • Illinois > Chicago > Web Site Designers • Illinois > Chicago Metro > Web Site Designers
3. SPONSOR RESULTS
4.TOP 20 WEB RESULTS

1-3 are all seperate revenues stream for Y and marketing buys for business. 1. YPs represent flat monthly fees (although those are actually back fill results) 2. An annual flat directory fee 3. PPC open bidding and 4. PFI

The future of search is segmentation of result sets based on intent. The closer you get to intent, and the more targeted an SE becomes, the more valuable the ad content is for users and business.

>>Chicago, cold.

I know Caveman, not like me, but this community is so accustom to the *ideal* of free search that the true make-up of today's serps (see above) is about to pass everyone by. PFI and PPC are fundemental to the future of search -product and local et al.

europeforvisitors




msg:834330
 5:16 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

In the world of search, the content is the advertisers.

Only if you believe that most search users are shopping. :-)

Kirby




msg:834331
 5:25 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>Directory Inclusion is a different product than search inclusion.

Interesting use of the word 'product'. I would have thought it would be like europeforvisitors defined it: content.

>Paying $299 a year to Yahoo for a directory listing does not help get you into search results.

I find this concept a little strange if true.

PFI aside, if the way into Yahoo's index is by being crawled, one could reasonably assume that they would crawl their own directory and start there. Since Y! makes a judgement on a site about whether or not it warrants inclusion into the directory (with no refund of the $299), it seems a logical place to start a base to build upon if one wants relevant results.

Tim




msg:834332
 5:48 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Interesting use of the word 'product'. I would have thought it would be like europeforvisitors defined it: content.

Tim responds:
I defined it like that because it could be the same content. You could submit the same content to Yahoo Search as well as Yahoo Directory.

The directory is good content and there is directory content in the index there just isnt all of it in the index.

Kirby




msg:834333
 5:57 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Fair enough, but why wouldnt the directory be in the index since it is a Yahoo edited directory?

<added> Meant to ask why the entire directory isnt in the index </added>

Zeberdee




msg:834334
 2:02 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

For us, in a non-commercial area, the new Yahoo results are extremely impressive.

The scary bit is this PFI stuff people are referring to. This seems at odds with the idea of ranking sites on relevancy and usefulness.

That does worry me in terms of where Yahoo might be heading. Having said that, what Google has been up to in the last few months worries me as well, although in our area they have now largely fixed it. That has deeply shaken our confidence in Google though.

It is a toss up for us as to which we use as default on our intranet. Will Google revert back to the silliness of last month? Will Yahoo mess up what they have created with PFI? The future is far from clear!

msgraph




msg:834335
 2:09 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>The scary bit is this PFI stuff people are referring to.

I think a lot of that is being blown way out of proportion. Everyone seems to be freaking out like pfi is just going to take the top 40 listings when I don't think that will be the case.

BobHighland




msg:834336
 2:43 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

The directory is good content

You can't really be serious when you say that. Yahoo has accepted so much garbage into it's directory over the past several years it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

ByronM




msg:834337
 2:54 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>There is still freedom in the internet.. and what you

Spare the drama. This is about business.

Y! trades on NasdaqNM:YHOO in case you need to be reminded.

They are not an altruistic group of Stanford boys.

I'm paying. My clients are paying. Most small business should pay.

Free. My *ss. Look at the changes that G has made the past two years.

You are fighting a loosing battle.

I beg to differ. My free sites, my free inclusion and my free content are paying for the servers, my gas and meals and working up to paying for my mortgage.

I'm not fighting a loosing battle at all. Yahoo isn't the internet and as long as people have alternatives we have choice.

Not everyone is here to make money. Anyone could take Yahoo on and frankly, i see it coming if it comes down to what you propose.

PFI is a dead horse and a waiste of time and money.

mikeD




msg:834338
 3:06 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

In the world of search, the content is the advertisers.

yeah thats rubbish, everytime a search engines has gone the pay submission route it's been the death of it. Search engines such as espotting, overture etc are just parasites of Google.

Anyone could take Yahoo on and frankly, i see it coming if it comes down to what you propose.

Definitely, all Yahoo uses is feeds from other people. It's only plus point is it's well known due to it's age.

Net_Wizard




msg:834339
 3:15 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

The closer you get to intent, and the more targeted an SE becomes, the more valuable the ad content is for users and business.

So, you are saying that the future of 'searchers' would be using multiple SE base on their intent? One SE for products, another for tutorial, another for forum, another for reviews, another for blogs,etc...

How realistic is that for a user? FYI, specialize search do exists already. We don't need another shopping SE. We need a SE that can go toe to toe with Google other than that this Y search announcement is really old news, nothing to be excited about.

Chicken Juggler




msg:834340
 3:23 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

The web is what people think it is. Everyone uses it for research and everyone uses it to buy things. What it started out as is a moot point. Actually the SE's should have 2 algos one that leans toward ecom and one that leans toward info and have a check box under the search box. I also think that they should take all the government sites out and put them on another tab like groups or directories. Phone books do this why can't the SE's. You are either looking for a government site or you are not.

We are at the birth of it being a utility like cable TV, home phones, cell phones, and power. You can not look back at the Internet to make predictions on what will happen in the future. There is no precedent. We can only compare it to what happened to the above mentioned utilities. American Society has proven over and over again that they do not want diversity. They tend to migrate toward one major avenue for what they want. There is then 2 companies that fight it out for second place and then eventually there are only 2 with the third far behind.

john316




msg:834341
 3:32 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hi Tim

Congratulations on the launch! I have a question and realize that you may have to reply along the lines of "no comment", but here goes:

With your investment into search, do you hold out the possibilty of a stand alone property to compete in the "pure search" market separate and apart from Yahoo!? Will branding investments be made into your existing search properties (ATW, etc).

Thanks, and once again, congratulations.

caveman




msg:834342
 3:41 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

IMHO, Chicago has it closer to the truth than most people understand or want to understand. The Web isn't what the Web 'should be'...the Web is what it is, from the very commercial to the very personal.

In the world of big league search, all players are commercial companies that need to make money or die. Deal with it.

Google's present strategy is to offer clean SERP's monetized by placing ad content on the top and sides. Plus, distribute that ad content to extend revenues. Yahoo seems to be in the game of monetizing the actual SERP's, and that strategy has proven the be the savior of the commercial Web, so anyone who discounts it hasn't been paying attention for the past two years. Y's strategy and G's strategy are both interesting, viable approaches.

Then there's the whole new wave of local search and YP soon to arrive (as Chicago again has pointed out for those who cared to listen), and that also will be all about the money.

Want free? So does everybody. When you find good, quality free *anything*, please do let me know. ;-)

Chicago




msg:834343
 4:00 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

I shouldn’t of used such harsh words, and I apologize for that.

The fundamental difference between us is this:

You believe that your content *should* be seen. You believe that a major SE like *Y! should enable* your content to be seen *without* associated paid inclusion *fees*. I believe that you do not have the right to make that presumption.

When was the last time a marketing business took hard copies of your company brochure and told you they were going to deliver it to people that are seeking you out for free? Sounds ludicrous right?

You are using Google as your single reference point. G is not the Internet. And the Internet is not a panacea of peace and love. It is an extension of traditional communication, marketing, and commerce conducted thru potentially more effective and efficient channels.

>>my free content are paying for the servers, my gas and meals and working up to paying for my mortgage.

Capitalism hard at work there ~ Sounds great. But with respect, in the end you will be valued not on your ability to manipulate free serps, but on the value you provide to your readers/consumers. The quicker you understand that, the more sure you will become about maintaining the business you created for yourself. PFI will not beat you. You will beat yourself by relying on free serps.

>>you saying..the future of 'searchers' would be using multiple SE base on their intent?

You can go to *one* of the leading engines for intent segmentation. It is already happening if you look hard enough. Although sure, there will be niche SE players that will command some market share moving forward- and I bet you they will be ppc or pfi.

mikemcs




msg:834344
 4:58 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Chicago, What makes one site more relevant then another? Is it the amount of cash a site is willing to pay?. I want to find good content not sites with deep pockets.

Google has tried to do both by having a few sponsored links set apart at the top and a few adwords set apart to the right but the main index is a list of usefulness based off of their algo at the time. What made Google so popular? They try to give the Searcher what they want not give the web designer what they want.

I can see the Idea that PFI can weed out some spammers is great. Real world has shown me that spammers will work around it. Just look at any incoming e-mail log and you can see the spammers at their best.

The real scare for the future is that all of this will not matter. Once Microsoft get a halfway decent SERP all of this discuss will be meaningless, just ask Netscape. They will push what they think the searcher wants and it will be the default search engine on every new machine sold to every new user. It comes as no surprise to me that almost every user here where I work has MSN as their default homepage. Is it a great site? To me Its ok (I prefer MyYahoo) but most users have no idea on how to change it.

Keep in mind that more than 90% of the searchers on the web have no idea about PFI all they want is content.

mikeD




msg:834345
 5:57 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Want free? So does everybody. When you find good, quality free *anything*, please do let me know. ;-)

dmoz, google for a start

mikeD




msg:834346
 6:05 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

The future of search is segmentation of result sets based on intent. The closer you get to intent, and the more targeted an SE becomes, the more valuable the ad content is for users and business.

For web savvy users this makes perfect sense, but a good majority of casual users will just be perplexed by segmentation results.

I bet there are a vast majority of casual users that use Google on a regular basis but havent even noticed the "news" or "pictures" search.

Only veteran users understand or notice these options. As more of a hobby I run a Internet beginners help site and believe me this is the case.

pleeker




msg:834347
 6:12 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

dmoz, google for a start

WebmasterWorld :)

such a brown-noser, I know....

Here's the thing. Joe Surfer won't care one way or another if the sites listed in the SERPs paid to get in there or not. PFI (in its current incarnation) doesn't guarantee a high ranking, it just guarantees your site gets spidered. PFI is not Y's problem right now.

Y's problem is that the algo needs a lot of improvement. Spammy sites with keyword-bloat are faring very well in many of the areas I've looked at -- sites that, as was said earlier in this thread, would have been highly ranked on G about 2-3 years ago.

If Y can clean up and improve the algo so it not only finds relevant sites, but finds relevant *quality* sites, it will do fine against G. If it doesn't, well, nice try.

mikeD




msg:834348
 6:17 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Y's problem is that the algo needs a lot of improvement. Spammy sites with keyword-bloat are faring very well

Hit the nail on the head. The quality is of Google from 2-3 years ago. Yahoo will have to learn fast. If not it's a real shame Yahoo has a high profile because apart from it's directory they just don't deserve it.

I want to find good content not sites with deep pockets.

If you look at the ads on Google the relevancy and quality of them is poor compared to the normal serps. So I am unsure whether ad paying sites make useful resources. Plus product review sites would probably be wiped out. You may get to the source quicker with Yahoo, but the source it not always honest.

Sunset_Jim




msg:834349
 6:41 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

I noticed that my traffic from Yahoo started dropping off last Tuesday (2/17/04)and by Wednesday (2/18/04) it was practically non existant. Before Tuesday my traffic from Yahoo was almost as much as from Google. Has anyone else observed this and can I expect traffic from Yahoo to pick up later?

Spica




msg:834350
 7:32 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Sunset_Jim:
It sounds like you are not in the new Yahoo index. See:
[webmasterworld.com...]

caveman




msg:834351
 8:00 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Want free? So does everybody. When you find good, quality free *anything*, please do let me know. ;-)
> dmoz, google for a start

Ummm, I was referring to the cost of getting *into* the Y/G SERP's, and the fact that all the big, quality players are in it for the money...G included. Increasingly, if you want to play, you gotta pay.

You think getting decent placement in G's SERP's is free? I'd love to know your secret! It costs us a lot of time and expense.

Also, I was referring to the larger, quality SERP's and SE's. DMOZ? When was the last time you used that site to search for anything?

Net_Wizard




msg:834352
 9:00 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

When was the last time a marketing business took hard copies of your company brochure and told you they were going to deliver it to people that are seeking you out for free? Sounds ludicrous right?

You forget one thing...Have you heard of symbiotic relationship?

SE provides user access to our site, we in turn provides content to SE...one cannot live without the other.

Sure, Overture and the PPC's industry supply a monetized serp but if you look at it closely the bulk of their revenue is not coming directly from their own site but from partnership with major portals and other content sites.

On their own. Do you think Overture would survive by users coming over to their site and do the actual searching? Wouldn't you rather do your searching at Google?

I spend over 4k online shopping last year aside from Amazon purchases most of my purchase where from sites that were found at Google free search.

However, in terms of internet activities, my actual purchase activity only represent a miniscule of my time spent in the internet. I say less than 10%, most of the time is actually done researching. Which of the SE you think do I go to? I have not shop through Overture site directly and i don't see that happening in the future as well. Would I use Y search now that I know it's a pfi serp? I'll consider paying for inclusion but as a searcher? I'll do my searching on a SE that can offer me a wider choices.

I think what Y is trying to do here is trying to convince its current Y users to use the Y search instead for them going to other SE...a sort of a local search and monetize the result as well.

That's fine but it would just be a matter of time that the same people would realize that there are better SE out there that offers a more wider scope result not just commercial site. Once they realize that, that would be goodbye Y search.

For instance MSN, they have total control of IE and have been feeding MSN users with their serp yet people are coming out and finding Google. How do you explain that?

Look at AOL, for years they have their serp from Inktomi and their very own users are getting tired of it and getting out and going to Google to do their searching. How do you explain that?

But at least, AOL is smart by actually bringing Google result to them thus retaining its own users base thus they are able to monetize with the additional search activities.

Why is people then going to Google? It's all about choices and having the control of where I want to go. Give me a SE with a few select sites on it and I guarantee you that I wouldn't use it, even if it's the best of the internet.

You know why? Because you don't know me, you don't know what I want. The only best thing a SE can do for me is offer a wide variety of choices.

Back to Y search, in essence there's so much high expectation for this SE but in the end it just look like a hybrid between Inktomi and Y directory.

What now.

Pay for rapid inclusion at ATW
Pay for inclusion at Inktomi
Pay for inclusion at Y Directory
Pay for inclusion at Y search

not to mention Overture.

Isn't the above 'pay for inclusion' starting to look like a squeeze to you?

mikemcs




msg:834353
 9:23 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Great Post Net_Wizard,

What made Google so popular? They try to give the Searcher what they want not give the web designer what they want.

I think that along with your post sums it up.

seasalt




msg:834354
 10:06 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

I wonder how many have used Yahoo up until the switch because it was Google-quality results wrapped in a portal - even if they did not realize the results were fed by Google. I wonder how many will migrate elsewhere because of the current mediocrity.

seasalt

steveb




msg:834355
 10:08 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

"Deal with it."

We are. You guys are wanting to turn back the clock and ignore more reality than most people live in their lives.

PFI has failed. Totally, and everywhere. Talking about some theoretical nevernever land may turn you on, but the facts speak for themselves and loudly.

PFI engines put together aren't worth a bucket of spit. An engine that considerd quality first reshaped and dominates the market, and there is absolutely zero... and emphasize ZERO... user/public pressure crying out for pfi searches over best of the web searches.

This is such a trivial issue anyway. Yahoo or anybody else can have PFI, but it certainly can never be the heart of a search engine. That idea is just way too far beyond naive.

george123




msg:834356
 10:11 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

there is no any switch guys ,Yahoo is back with Google SERPS just a minute ago,i posted earlier a message and told you those results was a usual update of Yahoo,anyway put widgets in Yahoo and widgets in Google see for your self the result.

Mardi_Gras




msg:834357
 10:16 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>there is no any switch guys ,

Right you are :(

For now, at least.

george123




msg:834358
 10:22 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>there is no any switch guys<
i told you it was an illusion the whole think.

gweston




msg:834359
 10:38 pm on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Strange I do a search on 2 different computers and get 2 different results...I even cut and paste the url in the other computer...still different results.

I refreshed ...deleted the temp files...still different results.

I don't see how this is possible.

This 247 message thread spans 9 pages: < < 247 ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 > >
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