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Yahoo Search Engine and Directory Forum

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The Switch Is Official
Brett_Tabke




msg:834149
 12:03 pm on Feb 18, 2004 (gmt 0)

According to some reports [news.com.com] yahoo is now ack'ing [webmasterworld.com] that the change to their "internally powered results" is offical. eg: goodbye Google.

 

mikeD




msg:834299
 10:50 pm on Feb 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

One reason why people may not be included in yahoo is if they have preiously paid for ink inclusion and then stopped paying. This usually means you can't get in for free again.

Becky




msg:834300
 10:55 pm on Feb 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

No, I never paid before but am willing to pay if it will get me into the yahoo index.

If I would pay to get into inktomi, does that automatically get me indexed into msn and yahoo?

pleeker




msg:834301
 10:56 pm on Feb 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

They are presenting sites that are related to the search, but they just aren't very good sites. They seem to be able to determine that the site is relevant to the search phrase, but they don't seem to be able to tell if a site is a good site or a mediocre site.

EXACTLY.

I mentioned in the Brandy discussion that G was showing lots of irrelevant listings in the real estate field, esp. when a city name is included in the search. Y at least brings up relevant web sites of local agents and agencies, but they're all spammy, keyword-bloated, templated, low-quality sites. There needs to be a quality factor added in somehow. Without it, Y seems way too easy to manipulate.

I'm also not impressed by seeing one site with several different listings in the Top 10 or 20 results.

Combine G and Y, and now you're talking about relevant, quality results. :)

mikeD




msg:834302
 10:57 pm on Feb 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

I am unsure Becky, seems a mess. Shame Yahoo didn't try to release something more professional

mikeD




msg:834303
 10:58 pm on Feb 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

Y at least brings up relevant web sites of local agents and agencies, but they're all spammy, keyword-bloated, templated, low-quality sites

Exactly what I was trying to raise. The Yahoo algo seems on a level of what Google was about 2 years ago.

Wouldnt be surprised if this whole se release has been designed to force yahoo shopping results down our throats. The fact they have eliminated all competition such as kelkoo, dealtime is very eye brow raising.

goin2travel




msg:834304
 11:04 pm on Feb 19, 2004 (gmt 0)

Just figured out I spend over $15,000 a year on advertising with Yahoo and related companies.

The SEs created this system of Organic and Paid results. Organic results are part of the package. I realize Y has no obligation to provide this traffic though I receive plenty of organic traffic from Google and other SEs.

With no organic traffic from Y while my competitors receive this traffic, many of them paying nothing for Y advertising.... I see little reason to continue paying for advertising with Yahoo.

-Inktomi feed doesnt show up in Yahoo search results.
-Inclusion in the directory doesnt show up in Y.results.
-Sponsored listings dont get one into the results.
-Overture advertising doesnt either

I understand that they arent obligated to include a site in their results...though what better way to determine if a site is deemed worthy of being in included in results than if its been paying for advertising with your company? And the company has had a person review the site for quality standards.


Tim




msg:834305
 12:43 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

MikeD about paying for paid inclusion and then getting dropped. If you were in the index before you paid then when you stop paying your URL will still be in the index. If you paid and your URL was not in the index, when you stop paying your site will only be in the index if we discovered that page during the subscription period in the free crawl.

caveman




msg:834306
 12:50 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Hi Tim,

Sorry..."subscription period in the free crawl" ... means what exactly?

Tim




msg:834307
 12:57 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

About Yahoo shopping- I have done a few queries that I can sticky to you and I am not seeing the same thing. I see other comparison engines sometime and Yahoo shopping sometimes. I think it is only fair to compare it with comparable queries at Google.

You said you were in the UK. I assume you are using yahoo.com not .co.uk?

BTW I hate it when you search for a product and all you get back is comparison engines. Everyone used to and still complains about that. Are you suggesting we need to have more comparison engines in the results or just different ones than Yahoo?

yvt360




msg:834308
 1:04 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

I rank very well for my keywords on Google. I am in the Yahoo directory, and also pay for the Ink. spider to come to my site, only thing is I have paid (months ago) but have never seen the Ink spider visit my site. I am pretty disappointed with the Yahoo results right now, are they trying to "one up" Google in messed up results?
We are 2nd under the Yahoo directory results, and no where for the same keywords under the search results.
Any recommendations?

goin2travel




msg:834309
 1:12 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

I think they are trying to one up google with messed up results LOL LOL LOL

Tim




msg:834310
 1:15 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

To clarify- if you are in the paid inclusion program and your URL was never in the index before you paid you will not be in the index when you stop paying
UNLESS- we find you by crawling during the 12 month period

Stefan




msg:834311
 1:18 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Well, it's interesting...

On some of our popular Google kw searches we have the top four spots in Yahoo. On others, we're buried.

It looks like it's all very old data. Our old pages rock and the new ones are nowhere to be found.

Honestly, having the top four spots in some of our serps is a bit ridiculous. I'll take it, what the h*ll, but it's rather shoddy.

Google is fresher than ever for us right now. It lists new pages within a day or two, just gives us the top two spots when warranted... it's still much better at this point than Yahoo. The more the merrier though, eh?

Net_Wizard




msg:834312
 1:26 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

The fact they have eliminated all competition such as kelkoo, dealtime is very eye brow raising.

Strange indeed, I've noticed several medium sites that are not included as well. It seems that Y doesn't want any site in their index that could directly compete.

Why send traffic to competitor, as if that's the mentality of this SE but they themselves have over 17 million URL in Google. That's a lot of potential free traffic send by G to Y.

I'm kind of incline to believe that this is a commercial database...paid for inclusion...and those who can't afford could not be listed, likewise to competing ecommerce site.

Basically, this is not the SE we are hoping for that could challenge Google but some kind of glorified Inktomi deal.

I hope I'm wrong

Tim




msg:834313
 1:41 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

We have plenty of content from Shopping.com, bizrate & pricegrabber. I believe these show up just as much in the queries that I have tried as Yahoo shopping. How many shopping engines do you need in the results. There is nothing worse than having the top ten look like a meta search of shopping engines. That is the feedback I have been given in the past.

I think this is another conspiracy theory because there is actually no truth to this. We actually tested this prior to launch to make sure we were not showing Yahoo content more than the prior search engine as we knew people would try to call us on this.
Tim

worker




msg:834314
 2:00 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

All Yahink needs to do is to increase the size of their database by crawling everything for free, and add in some sort of ranking system to determine good sites from mediocre sites.

Oh, and they need to crawl frequently so that the results are fresh.

That's all.

Once they do that, they'll have a good engine.

Chicago




msg:834315
 2:19 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>Yahink needs to do is to increase the size of their database by crawling everything for free

easy to say when you aren't paying.

Y! has the guts to make a business move that takes into consideration their bottom line. Full monetization of search ~ ppc and pfi.

G will last only so long without consideration towards the full monetization of search, and they are behind the ball from serp, local search, and personalization standpoints.

I applaud the pfi move. It is a checks and balances on spam, while providing for inclusion in a critical database for some 10 cents a day per page.

I call it a win for Y! and the consumer. At minimum it is different than G. I for one would place my money on Y! any day for doing this in a fiscally responsible and effective way.

ByronM




msg:834316
 2:27 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)


>>by crawling everything for free

you gonna paying for that?

Y! has the guts to make a business move that takes into consideration their bottom line. Full monetization of search ~ ppc and pfi.

G will last only so long without consideration towards the full monetization of search, and they are behind the ball from serp, local search, and personalization standpoints.

I applaud the pfi move. It is a checks and balances on spam, while providing for inclusion in a critical database for some 10 cents a day per page.

I call it a win for Y! and the consumer. At minimum it is different than G. I for one would place my money on Y! any day for doing this in a fiscally responsible yet effective way.

That entire statement is just scary. The internet wasn't created to sell crap. The internet was created to share and distribute informaiton and has morphed into what it is today.

What you are proposing is downright scary and the fact you seem humble about it concerns me.

10 cents a page per day is more then what 99.9% of the pages out there make. What you would propose would be the death of any business that supported that idea as an absolute (no index unless you pay)

Anyone can start a search engine and if people start charging for exclusive pfi for everything then i think webmasters should unit and block those search engines from making money of there hard work.

I don't think google is dumb enough to hurt the hand that feeds them. They're wise to support adsense and return revenue to the people who create it for them. Yahoo on the otherhand has investors anxious to make a buck on anything and everything they can think of.

There is still freedom in the internet.. and what you propose is downright sickening.

steveb




msg:834317
 2:34 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

It is scary to see someone defend the indefensible.

Like being the public defender for pfi.

Chicago




msg:834318
 2:45 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>There is still freedom in the internet.. and what you propose is downright sickening

Spare the drama. This is about business.

Y! trades on NasdaqNM:YHOO in case you need to be reminded.

They are not an altruistic group of Stanford boys.

I'm paying. My clients are paying. Most small business should pay.

Free. My *ss. Look at the changes that G has made the past two years.

You are fighting a loosing battle.

yvt360




msg:834319
 2:47 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Lets observe:

Google has "Florida update" in mid-Nov. Yahoo is getting Google data feed.

Yahoo switches to Ink. data (judge for yourself)
at the same time Google switches to results that are better than ever.

MedCenter




msg:834320
 2:49 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

I'm still seeing old Google data... in Canada

yvt360




msg:834321
 3:00 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Tim,

I am trying figure this out. Our website has been in the Yahoo directory for a few years, before the $299 inclusion. We are still in the directory, actually ranked pretty high in the directory section. When we saw the $299 inclusion offered we were going to pay the $299 but were told not to if we are already in the directory.

So a couple questions:

1. If we are listed in the directory but we have not paid, should we pay the $299?

2. We have paid for the Ink. spider to visit but have not seen it. We are signed up through ptech.

Please advise.

irishaff




msg:834322
 3:11 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Ok, one of my domains is in the new Yahoo index and does ok for some of my key terms. I dont want to start another thread on this , but this one seems to be about " my site is in the index " or not..

1. I did not pay anybody for inclusion anywhere.

2. Past that im still looking...

Factors so far
1. Keywords in Title is important.
2. Keyword density seems a factor.
3. My domain is listed in DMOZ

Past that there does not seem to be a pattern.

Is Factor 1,2,3 it, is that the algo?

If so ill have to split sites and dissallow google from a new one to rank in this one, as what seems to rank you in google does not in this one and visa versa.

Discussion and observations?

[edited for spelling]

[edited by: irishaff at 3:24 am (utc) on Feb. 20, 2004]

caveman




msg:834323
 3:21 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Chicago, cold man. Really cold.

BTW, I'm going to be needing a new Web shop soon...you guys available? ;-)

Net_Wizard




msg:834324
 3:22 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Spare the drama. This is about business.

Y! trades on NasdaqNM:YHOO in case you need to be reminded.

They are not an altruistic group of Stanford boys.

I'm paying. My clients are paying. Most small business should pay.

Free. My *ss. Look at the changes that G has made the past two years.

You are fighting a loosing battle.

If you are talking business then Y better be outright honest of its intention. Because right now people are expecting a 'new search engine' and 'not pfi engine'.

I don't mind paying for inclusion on a opportunistic point of view but on a global level Y will eventually lose users over to free search engines. Why? Because there's more choices on a free search engine.

Such as hobby sites, non-profit sites, forums, blogs, moms and pops sites, informational sites. These are just samples of sites that Y would exclude in their pfi index. Not all people buy all the time even yahoo users.

If you are going to say that those kind of sites would be selectively included in the index then isn't that opportunistic of Y to profit from the works of others?

Maybe we could start a webmasters association that would start charging for every slurp access. How's that for business?

Why would they send out slurp to 'non-paying' sites? There's no reason then, right? Except perhaps to bolster their index to make it at least useful without looking too commercial? If so, I think that is the quickest way for Y to make enemies.

<edit>I for one would ban slurp in one of my non-commercial site and will actively campaign the idea to other information site. If Y wants to be commercial so be it.</edit>

[edited by: Net_Wizard at 3:26 am (utc) on Feb. 20, 2004]

Tim




msg:834325
 3:23 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

1. If we are listed in the directory but we have not paid, should we pay the $299?
I am not sure what you are expecting to pay for if you are already in the directory? I think you already have the benefit. Directory Inclusion is a different product than search inclusion.

2. We have paid for the Ink. spider to visit but have not seen it. We are signed up through ptech.
You should contact positiontech for support.

yvt360




msg:834326
 3:47 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Thank you Tim.

Do you expect there will be another level of "search inclusion" advertising available with Yahoo?

I have to admit, the best relevent results I have seen are in the Yahoo Directory, the only thing licking is volume, it is unfortunate it does not get utilized more.

europeforvisitors




msg:834327
 4:00 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Such as hobby sites, non-profit sites, forums, blogs, moms and pops sites, informational sites. These are just samples of sites that Y would exclude in their pfi index. Not all people buy all the time even yahoo users.

There's no way that Yahoo would include only PFI listings in its search engine, because that would mean ceding the search market to its two biggest competitors: Google and MSN. After all, a search engine isn't much different from a newspaper, a magazine, or a TV network: It supplies content (in this case, search listings) to an audience, and it uses that audience to attract advertising.

Of course, Yahoo could decide to require PFI for overtly commercial pages, since (1) e-commerce sites can justify the cost of PFI submissions, and (2) Yahoo's perceived search quality won't suffer if some merchants and affiliates choose to let their competitors reap the rewards of being listed in Yahoo. The challenge would be in determining what's "commercial" for PFI purposes. Not every information site has an .edu or a .gov in its domain name, and not every commercial site has "Book now" or "Add to shopping cart" splashed across its pages.

goin2travel




msg:834328
 4:13 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

Forget conspiracy theories.

Yahoo's "new" technology isn't as good as Googles.

Paying for Inktomi listings does not get you into Yahoo organic search results. Same applies to paid listings in Yahoo directories and overture.

The reason: Yahoo will face serious legal problems if they are feeding paid listings into their organic results and having people pay using inktomi or overture.

According to the FTC, Web sites using paid search listings are required to make their advertising practices and policies clear to consumers. Thats the reason sponsored links are shown the way they are.

Accordingly, Overture paid ads and Inktomi paid ads arent part of the Yahoo search results.

This is despite the claims of companies who sell Inktomi ads, who say that if you do a XML feed, that these will be part of Yahoo results.

Its clear that there is no truth to this.

Paying $299 a year to Yahoo for a directory listing does not help get you into search results.

Paying $1000s a month in to Inktomi for a feed doesnt get you into Yahoo search results.

Paying for a Sponsored Directory listing doesnt get you into Yahoo search results.

If these arent factors in getting a site into Yahoo search results, what are the factors?

Also, what keeps a well known site from being included in the search results?

Is it that once you have paid a bunch of money for advertising, your site is identified as a site to exclude as Yahoo knows very well that the site owners will spend money on advertising if they arent in the search results.... in the hope that they will get back in the search results.

Chicago




msg:834329
 5:01 am on Feb 20, 2004 (gmt 0)

>>It supplies content (in this case, search listings) to an audience, and it uses that audience to attract advertising

In the world of search, the content is the advertisers.

I would put my weight behind the quality of a pfi + algo versus a pure free algo anyday.

I am not sure that everyone will be able to see this, but go to Yahoo and type in a verticle-geo like ~ web design city (your city).

Many of those in major cities will find the following structure in their serp.

1. YAHOO! YELLOW PAGES web design listings near Chicago IL
2. Categories: Illinois > Chicago > Web Site Designers Illinois > Chicago Metro > Web Site Designers
3. SPONSOR RESULTS
4.TOP 20 WEB RESULTS

1-3 are all seperate revenues stream for Y and marketing buys for business. 1. YPs represent flat monthly fees (although those are actually back fill results) 2. An annual flat directory fee 3. PPC open bidding and 4. PFI

The future of search is segmentation of result sets based on intent. The closer you get to intent, and the more targeted an SE becomes, the more valuable the ad content is for users and business.

>>Chicago, cold.

I know Caveman, not like me, but this community is so accustom to the *ideal* of free search that the true make-up of today's serps (see above) is about to pass everyone by. PFI and PPC are fundemental to the future of search -product and local et al.

This 247 message thread spans 9 pages: < < 247 ( 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 > >
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