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How much is enough?
job requirements
kvanbeurden




msg:788641
 2:33 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

employers list a lot of required job skills in their internet job postings.

is it reasonable for one person to have all of a job's required skill set, and is an employer even really looking for someone to meet all of the qualifications? if so, what level of expertise in each area would be enough?

i mean, there is being "proficient" in javascript and then there are the "gurus".

 

Macguru




msg:788642
 2:38 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

Hi kvanbeurden,

Welcome to WmW.
If some large company is placing the add, they don't have a clue about the job requirements. Go for it! :-)

rogerd




msg:788643
 2:45 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

Kvanbeurden, this is a tough question to answer - usually, the clues are in the ad itself. Often, an ad will lead with something like, "Visual BASIC programmer" and go on to list a dozen different technology. In that case, it's reasonable to assume that a high level of proficiency in Visual BASIC, and knowledge of all or most of the other items listed.

My advice would be to be honest about your skill levels, but don't hesitate to apply if you are lacking one or two items. Sometimes employers will throw extra stuff into the ad that really isn't important, or they may have people who are already strong in that area so even if you are weak it won't matter much. There's no way of knowing this from looking at the ad. Good luck!

DaveN




msg:788644
 2:46 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

hi kvanbeurden,

When we are looking for new members of staff we always look for the "most have's" and "we would like's"

The most have's need a least 12 month exp in a working environment (not I did it at university)

And we would like's are things we either are already really good at so not important to the team or something we don't actually need but would nice to Know a little about it.

Examples most have 12 months experience in ASP and SQL would like PHP.

As a company we donít use PHP but to understand it a little could be useful.

On the ASP side we would want to see them to setup SQL database create and add records Via an ASP page.

DaveN

digitalghost




msg:788645
 3:00 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

My suggestion is to apply. Quite often the requisite skills are lumped together as "web development" skills. The person responsible for creating the copy doesn't have the technical expertise to determine which skills are actually needed and which ones would be a "nice addition." :)

A company in my hometown consistently adds .asp to the list of required skills needed by their development team. They combine their services with hosting, and all their servers are...UNIX. One of their developers is a cigar smoking friend of mine, to date, he's worked on 0 projects utilizing .asp and says the company has no plans to acquire additional servers.

Another ad in today's paper requests a web developer that is well versed in Word and Frontpage. Now there's a scary though. ;) I wonder if HTML is required...

DG

TallTroll




msg:788646
 3:07 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

You should view the requirements in a jod ad as the wish list. Send your CV, and if you are a fair match to the REAL spec, you'll get an interview. If not, try somewhere else.

If you get an interview, you will get a much better idea of what the job is about there, and any required/to be developed distinctions will be made in detail at that point

You frequently find that if someone with all the quoted skills applied, the company wouldn't be bale to afford them anyway. Its just the way it works

Travoli




msg:788647
 3:09 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

From my experience:

Large companies typically are looking for proficiency in 1 or 2 skills/languages. Too many times the jobs description is miscommunicated in the transition from IT department to HR manager. The result is a job posting with a listing of 12 languages and no indication of which are the most important. Heck, we just hired a couple guys with no experience in the language they will be spending their days coding. We are going to teach them.

Job postings from smaller companies tend to be more accurate. Since there is no HR manager, the IT guy or owner usually writes the description his/herself. They really may be looking for one guy that can program quickly in all 12 languages.

If you get an interview, they have most likely seen your resume and think you have what it takes. Best thing you can do at that point is go in with an "I can learn anything you need me to" attitude.

cyril kearney




msg:788648
 4:32 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

kvanbeurden,
The seeming endless requirements that are posted in job ads as requirements are often mindboogling.

The New York City metropolitan area has a huge number of unemployed and under-employed developers. Too many Human Resources departments and Placement firms treat this list as an absolute requirement.

A current ad is looking for a developer with 10 years of solid mainframe development hands-on experience using DB2, COBOL and CICS along with 5-7 years of Client Server experience with Oracle, Sybase, Java, JavaBeans and Unix as well as 5 years Visual Basic ASP, SQL Server and NT experience. It also absolute requires 5 years EDI, COM/DCOM and Websphere experience.

That position will stay open until the company becomes desperate and then they'll hire anyone that can steam a mirror.

I recommend that you submit your resume to any employer that you seem reasonable qualified for. The whole employment process is about as scientic as two dogs smelling each others butts.

papabaer




msg:788649
 4:57 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

Personally, this is one of my favorite examples:

Below is a segment of an add I just read. The employer is looking for an Internet Marketing Specialist (this IS the job title) but as you read through the list of requirements, you can see that the "Internet Marketing Specialist" also need to be a Graphic Designer, a Web Developer, a Data Base Guru, a Newtwork Engineer as well as an Advertising Specialist!

I know that as Web Developers, we should be versed in a wide variety of the skillsets associated with our profession. But employers posting adds such as the one below, and then offering the absurd salary that follows only shows how little many Human Resource departments know about Internet Skills Professionals.

There are too many SPECIALISED disciplines expected all lumped into one package and then insulted by a ridiculous salary offer! Realistically, if they are seeking someone truly adept at all the required disciplines, then their salary offer needs to be at the very least, tripled!

Care to comment?

This is the add (with the company name removed):

Primary Duties and Responsibilities:
∑ Review and interpret web site activity data for use in refining and improving online marketing efforts.
∑ Provide input and guidance on integration of web site into overall marketing efforts, including technical viability of such efforts.
∑ Process and distribute inbound information requests received online to appropriate individual.
∑ Manage and leverage marketing (and other corporate) databases for online marketing initiatives.
∑ Continually advance knowledge of techniques used in online marketing and Web programming.
∑ Coordinate inclusion of website content and design with marketing department staff.
∑ Program and maintain all primary and affiliated [BLANK] websites.
∑ Interface daily with Information Technology department to ensure timely and effective maintenance and operation of web site and other online tools.
∑ Perform additional duties, projects and assignments as required.

Education and Experience:
∑ Minimum Requirement: Associateís Degree in Marketing or related discipline, with significant web development or online marketing coursework.
∑ Minimum 2 years work experience in an online marketing environment, emphasizing tactical implementation of marketing strategies using a variety of electronic methods.
∑ Candidates should possess a strong portfolio of previous work and/or be able to demonstrate prior experience in a similar position or in management of similar projects.

Skills and Qualifications:
OPERATING SYSTEM & INFRASTRUCTURE:
∑ Knowledge of Windows NT, Windows 98 and 2000 operating systems
∑ Knowledge of web site infrastructure, including hardware requirements, connectivity maintenance between internet/ intranet, ODBC connections, firewall maintenance, site monitoring procedures, security (including SSL) and technical integrity issues

WEB DESIGN:
∑ Demonstrated proficiency in the most recent versions of the following applications: Microsoft FrontPage, Macromedia Dreamweaver, Macromedia Flash, Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Illustrator.

WEB DEVELOPMENT:
∑ Ability to program, test and debug websites using HTML and ASP at a minimum.
∑ Additional demonstrated competency with any of the following desirable, but not required: XML, DHTML, Javascript, VB script, C++ and Perl.
∑ Ability to develop and maintain online registration and e-commerce applications

∑ Ability to program websites and e-mail solicitations to properly interface with a full range of systems and browsers, including:
∑ MS-Outlook, Lotus Notes,
∑ All versions of Netscape, IE, AOL, and other popular browsers
∑ Macintosh systems
∑ Familiarity with audio, video, multimedia and online chat delivery applications.

DATABASE:
∑ Knowledge of SQL Server
∑ Knowledge of the following database applications: ACT, Microsoft Access

PERSONAL SKILLS:
∑ Strong project development/management skills
∑ Strong communications skills
∑ Strong inter-personal team player

This position offers a starting salary in the low to mid $30ís, excellent benefits and a great workplace environment. EOE. Interested parties should submit resume with cover letter to: As if!!! ;)

(edited by: Travoli at 6:30 pm (utc) on April 3, 2002)

JayC




msg:788650
 6:14 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

>> The employer is looking for an Internet Marketing Specialist (this IS the job title)

Heh. Seems kind of funny to call that position any kind of "specialist." It's about as wide a set of skills and requirements as there could be!

papabaer




msg:788651
 6:38 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

I know... I actually wrote a long letter to the HR Director that posted the ad. I find these type of advertisements unsettling; obviously there is a lack of understanding on part of the HR department both of the technology and the scope of responsibilities.

Air




msg:788652
 6:56 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

Many times job ads look the way they do because the people that are asked to provide the requirements subconciously elevate their own positions by listing everything as a requirement, to do any less would be to devalue their current roles and standing as IT professionals.

I have been interviewed by panels consisting of 5 - 7 IT staff where combined they did not have the skill set they were asking of the candidate being interviewed, and could not answer questions about certain technologies they considered very important, in fact they did not have a clear idea of what the successful candidate would actually be doing or what was to be accomplished.

IMO, try for anything that seems reasonable to you and you have enough proficiency in to produce "something" and get better at. Remember, 90% of people in IT departments don't know anything about technology, they know a business process to which technology has been applied.

Crazy_Fool




msg:788653
 7:04 pm on Apr 3, 2002 (gmt 0)

never be afraid to apply for a job whether you have all the required skills or not. if nothing else, it's good practise. you could apply for 20 jobs and get half a dozen interviews. you could even get your pick of several jobs.

if it looks good, go for it.

knighty




msg:788654
 7:51 am on Apr 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

The biggest problem as has already been hinted at is that employers do not know what they are loking for.

I have been for interviews where it is obvious that I have more knowledge than the person inteviewing me. Typical example is one where all they had of my work was a few printouts. They were just going on what the page looked like, no shots of the code or how did you do this. They just asked some very basic questions about what I do, no technical questions and nothing deeper than "where do you see yourslef in five years?"

TeddyBare69




msg:788655
 8:12 am on Apr 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

This just goes along with what everybody else has been saying. I have applied for atleaast 10 jobs a week since december. I have 12 years experience in the IT field and have been really kind of down because I only got one call back on any of my applications. I just got one last week and I went to the interview. The interviewer show me the job posting because I told her I didn't remember all the details. It said there shop was visual basic and access. The only skill she wanted to know my experience in was C++. That was hand written on the job posting by the recruiter. I still have yet to understand what senior and junior actually means.

It almost seems like sending your resume to any job that looks close and then sorting it out when they call you because they read your resume. That to me is the manual form of spamming and if everybody does that it will only make trying to find the right job or the right person for the job that much harder.

I know I wasn't much help and I probably made things worse.
Maybe that lawn technition job that required 10 years Unix, 10 years NT and graphics design a plus was really what I wanted? :)

Lisa




msg:788656
 8:15 am on Apr 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

A person with all these skills can make 90k on their own. So why would you settle for less from a company that you work for.

TeddyBare69




msg:788657
 8:24 am on Apr 4, 2002 (gmt 0)

> So why would you settle for less from a company that you work for.

Lisa,
From being a consultant most of my career I have a fair list of skills. All these skills are technical. Most of them have been stored away for later use and could be brought back with a little catchup work. The skill I do not possess is how to get somebody to trust that paying me for a job is better than paying the company next to me with a staff of 10 programmers and a business name within the community. The insurance that they get with the higher rates has usually stopped all of my attempts dead in there tracks.

kastro




msg:788658
 3:22 am on Apr 19, 2002 (gmt 0)

Low 30's for that set of skills? What State or Country are you from because that is an awfully low salary. In NY, a person with that set of skills could easily get 60k a year without certs or a diploma if he/she could handle the job.

Just a comment.

Oh and about applying. Just apply. It's a huge step farther then not applying and the worst that can happen is you don't get a repsonse. Don't be shy. Go after your dreams.

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